Neutrals at switches

[Adam W]

you still need to loop singles m8y

Could you not feed the switch with the live then take the switched live off to the lights, and take the neutral straight there?

 

[Dunc]

I think the difference is having a decent apprenticeship where you was taught what was what, and not what these new kids on the block get taught at college today, then go out into the big world of sparking without any practical experience.

That is possibly one of the most sweeping and moronic statements i have ever read on this site. I served a 3 year apprenticeship with a well respected local NIC EIC approved contracting firm and i learnt both methods of wiring lighting circuits.

sorry I am more of an commercial/industrial installer

And i think this sums up why you have never come across looped supplies at a switch as you're obviously far more au fait with singles in conduit.

Curious to know how you would wire a room with only 5A sockets, wall lights or a number of recessed lights. Where abouts would you put a junction box where all the connections were easily accessible? I think i'll just continue doing it wrong by feeding the switch and faffing about with a maximum of two cables at each fitting.

 

[UNG]

Let me put it this way then, .... I wouldn't and haven't allowed it on any of my projects in the past, and wont allow it on my next project!!! If a neutral is needed for outside lights and the like, fine i have no-problem with that, but i do have a problem with using the switch points as junction boxes as a wiring system!!! No Way Ho Say!!!!!

Only ever seen this tried once on a project, and that was on a stand alone smallish building on a large shopping centre complex. In this case the building was very much like a normal house build, and using T&E wiring methods. Only caught it after a good 2/3rds of the first fix had been installed. Just the same, ...it all came out!!!

I would love to know how you justified the extra cost to the customer just to suit your idealistic approach, you appear to be closed to change so I can only assume you still use rubber cable!!

I'm getting to understand the meaning of Domestic installers now!!!!

Was there any need for this comment


With regard to apprenticeships I was taught to loop lives at the switch and neutrals at the light fitting using 6241y and 6181y. Whats next will we not be able to use all the different methods of two way switching because it doesn't suit one person

Still not sure why after 140+ posts there is still no valid explanation why neutral should not be looped at the switch, I think the comments regarding damage by the switch fixing screws is a bit lame as I have seen plenty of live cables damaged by screws

 

[robsparx]

Originally Posted by MrEnigma
I think the difference is having a decent apprenticeship where you was taught what was what, and not what these new kids on the block get taught at college today, then go out into the big world of sparking without any practical experience.

That is possibly one of the most sweeping and moronic statements i have ever read on this site. I served a 3 year apprenticeship with a well respected local NIC EIC approved contracting firm and i learnt both methods of wiring lighting circuits.

I agree. I get the feeling that all the people so against neutrals at the switch are old school middle aged sparks who don't like change and are stuck in their ways.

Maybe I just made a sweeping and moronic statement myself lol

 

[robd]

Risk falling of a ladder what about takeing a Zs reading....Hold on lets just do the calculation Zs= Ze + R1 + R2 like the Niceic say to do.

I've never seen this and never ever been taught to this. Il also never teach anyone to do it.

Must be wrong if you've never seen it or been taught it then!

 

[BillyTheSparks]

Also if you've got a dimmer switch less room

When I'm wiring any new install I fit 35mm Metal back boxes as standard everywhere (makes fitting slimplate/screwless accessories SO much easier) and have even fitted 47mm back boxes for switches as I asked the client before hand to ensure we all knew what type of switch is to be fitted.

I never use the 16mm or even 25mm boxes anymore

I'm all for wiring at the switch

 

[Electricalserv]

Must be wrong if you've never seen it or been taught it then!

I don't think anyone has said its wrong just that some would not do it. A more valid point was the one of adding to the circuit. It becomes much more of a ballache than having to lift boards up and looping out of the rose to an extra light. Instead having to chase wall just to carry on loop to an extra fitting.

Nope never came across this ever.

 

[IQ Electrical]

I don't think anyone has said its wrong just that some would not do it. A more valid point was the one of adding to the circuit. It becomes much more of a ballache than having to lift boards up and looping out of the rose to an extra light. Instead having to chase wall just to carry on loop to an extra fitting.

Nope never came across this ever.

It was saying it was wrong that caused this thread to take off, along with casting doubt on the training of 'neutral in the box' practitioners and an implication that this was something unique to domestic installers!

 

[Electricalserv]

It was saying it was wrong that caused this thread to take off, along with casting doubt on the training of 'neutral in the box' practitioners and an implication that this was something unique to domestic installers!

IQ you become so pedantic at times and pop up just to have your say when it suits you. Mainly when wronging someone.

 

[IQ Electrical]

IQ you become so pedantic at times and pop up just to have your say when it suits you. Mainly when wronging someone.

Pedantic meeeeee?

Maybe but I'd hate to think that I mainly post to 'wrong someone'.

 

[chiplard]

I don't think anyone has said its wrong just that some would not do it. A more valid point was the one of adding to the circuit. It becomes much more of a ballache than having to lift boards up and looping out of the rose to an extra light. Instead having to chase wall just to carry on loop to an extra fitting.

Nope never came across this ever.

Why would you have to chase the wall to access the loop?

Surely any 'loop' cable will be accessible before it enters the wall. ie underneath boards or in the loft.

 

[Electricalserv]

Why would you have to chase the wall to access the loop?

Surely any 'loop' cable will be accessible before it enters the wall. ie underneath boards or in the loft.

So you want to cut into the loop cable and JB. Yes you could do that I suppose.

 

[chiplard]

So you want to cut into the loop cable and JB. Yes you could do that I suppose.

And what is wrong with that, if terminated correctly, in a junction box and accessible for inspection?

 

[Phil]

So you want to cut into the loop cable and JB. Yes you could do that I suppose.

no need for a jb if the wago or ashley maintenance enclosures are used.

 

[pennywise]

Mountain out of a mole hill, loving the thread

 

[Des 56]

I agree. I get the feeling that all the people so against neutrals at the switch are old school middle aged sparks who don't like change and are stuck in their ways.

Maybe I just made a sweeping and moronic statement myself lol

Ahem yes you have

Now lets not tarnish the whole spectrum of sparky ages,these middle aged sparks may be more old school than us older ones

 

[Hawk81]

Have to say I have enjoyed reading this thread. Some people are unbelievable. I personally find nothing wrong with either method and have used both. Its all about what works best for each perticular installation. E54 says himself that he would take a neutral to a switch for an outside light. So really what is the difference in outside light and indoor light when it comes to having a neutral to this switch?? To say it is bad practice i just plain daft. Noone has gave a valid reason for it to be classed as bad practice. I was taught to loop at the rose but times change and I am willing to learn and adapt. This method of looping at the switch is not just a domestic installer idea and I think that was a foolish remark. Just because someone likes or dislikes a method does not mean the method they like is bad practice and it shows lack of forward thinking to talk like that.

 

[Ponty Massive]

Well not sure if I'm old school or not. I finished my 4 year apprenticeship in 1994. I must say, until reading this thread, I did not realise that neutrals to the switch was a common thing done now'adays. Tbh, I use the switch loop from the rose system and no neutrals in the switch. Having said that, when installing new supplies for wall lights or outside lights, then yes I will take a neutral to the switch, but normally only on these occasions.

I wouldn't say neutrals at the switch were bad practice, but for me (personal opinion) for a "standard" I keep to the old fashion method. I don't like the thought of running 3x T+E to each switch when 1x T+E can do the job. Someone mentioned adding to the circuit by cutting the feed to the switch and adding a JB, surely this is defeating the object?? The reason I like the old system is, less wires to the switch and easier to extend a circuit in the future.

A time and place for both I supoose?

 

[Paul.M]

After reading all 16 pages and 158 posts I can now come up with a valid reason for not looping neutrals at the switch and even then its lame.

Identification of conductors. If a DIYer or an inexperienced spark came along, he may think the neutral is a strapper that has not been sleeved (and we all see that every week). Told you it was a bit thin .

Besides its down to the circumstance of the building and circuit to choose the best wiring method, not personal preference or that you've never done it before.

 

[Guest 004]

Ah morning peeps, everybody sleep well? Haha

Note to self 'no more sweeping generalisation's

IMO fixed wiring should be fixed, so if you can fix the neutral at the switch, then so be it (apparently hager does a switch).

If I cannot fix the neutral, then I will not wire to the switch. IMO!!