OP
chiplard
Why would you have to chase the wall to access the loop?
Surely any 'loop' cable will be accessible before it enters the wall. ie underneath boards or in the loft.
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Please checkout the new poll we will be pushing hard, and want some good stories to come out of this
result are public - you can change your vote over time, which might genuinely be the case from time to time.
Discuss Neutrals at switches in the Australia area at ElectriciansForums.net
Why would you have to chase the wall to access the loop?
Surely any 'loop' cable will be accessible before it enters the wall. ie underneath boards or in the loft.
OP
Electricalserv
So you want to cut into the loop cable and JB. Yes you could do that I suppose.
OP
chiplard
And what is wrong with that, if terminated correctly, in a junction box and accessible for inspection?
OP
Phil
no need for a jb if the wago or ashley maintenance enclosures are used.
OP
pennywise
Mountain out of a mole hill, loving the thread
Ahem yes you have
Now lets not tarnish the whole spectrum of sparky ages,these middle aged sparks may be more old school than us older ones
Hawk81
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Have to say I have enjoyed reading this thread. Some people are unbelievable. I personally find nothing wrong with either method and have used both. Its all about what works best for each perticular installation. E54 says himself that he would take a neutral to a switch for an outside light. So really what is the difference in outside light and indoor light when it comes to having a neutral to this switch?? To say it is bad practice i just plain daft. Noone has gave a valid reason for it to be classed as bad practice. I was taught to loop at the rose but times change and I am willing to learn and adapt. This method of looping at the switch is not just a domestic installer idea and I think that was a foolish remark. Just because someone likes or dislikes a method does not mean the method they like is bad practice and it shows lack of forward thinking to talk like that.
OP
Ponty Massive
Well not sure if I'm old school or not. I finished my 4 year apprenticeship in 1994. I must say, until reading this thread, I did not realise that neutrals to the switch was a common thing done now'adays. Tbh, I use the switch loop from the rose system and no neutrals in the switch. Having said that, when installing new supplies for wall lights or outside lights, then yes I will take a neutral to the switch, but normally only on these occasions.
I wouldn't say neutrals at the switch were bad practice, but for me (personal opinion) for a "standard" I keep to the old fashion method. I don't like the thought of running 3x T+E to each switch when 1x T+E can do the job. Someone mentioned adding to the circuit by cutting the feed to the switch and adding a JB, surely this is defeating the object?? The reason I like the old system is, less wires to the switch and easier to extend a circuit in the future.
A time and place for both I supoose?
I wouldn't say neutrals at the switch were bad practice, but for me (personal opinion) for a "standard" I keep to the old fashion method. I don't like the thought of running 3x T+E to each switch when 1x T+E can do the job. Someone mentioned adding to the circuit by cutting the feed to the switch and adding a JB, surely this is defeating the object?? The reason I like the old system is, less wires to the switch and easier to extend a circuit in the future.
A time and place for both I supoose?
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After reading all 16 pages and 158 posts I can now come up with a valid reason for not looping neutrals at the switch and even then its lame.
Identification of conductors. If a DIYer or an inexperienced spark came along, he may think the neutral is a strapper that has not been sleeved (and we all see that every week). Told you it was a bit thin.
Besides its down to the circumstance of the building and circuit to choose the best wiring method, not personal preference or that you've never done it before.
Identification of conductors. If a DIYer or an inexperienced spark came along, he may think the neutral is a strapper that has not been sleeved (and we all see that every week). Told you it was a bit thin
. Besides its down to the circumstance of the building and circuit to choose the best wiring method, not personal preference or that you've never done it before.
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OP
Guest 004
Ah morning peeps, everybody sleep well? Haha
Note to self 'no more sweeping generalisation's
IMO fixed wiring should be fixed, so if you can fix the neutral at the switch, then so be it (apparently hager does a switch).
If I cannot fix the neutral, then I will not wire to the switch. IMO!!
Note to self 'no more sweeping generalisation's
IMO fixed wiring should be fixed, so if you can fix the neutral at the switch, then so be it (apparently hager does a switch).
If I cannot fix the neutral, then I will not wire to the switch. IMO!!
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Ahem yes you have
Now lets not tarnish the whole spectrum of sparky ages,these middle aged sparks may be more old school than us older ones
Who's old .......................
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After reading all 16 pages and 158 posts I can now come up with a valid reason for not looping neutrals at the switch and even then its lame.
Identification of conductors. If a DIYer or an inexperienced spark came along, he may think the neutral is a strapper that has not been sleeved (and we all see that every week). Told you it was a bit thin
Besides its down to the circumstance of the building and circuit to choose the best wiring method, not personal preference or that you've never done it before.
Extremely lame Paul,
I've never had the situation you describe, but I've had literally dozens of call outs over the years where a punter has taken a ceiling light down to fit a new one they have purchased (well it's only a couple of wires, what could go wrong?) only to be faced with several reds & blacks (brown & blues) and not knowing what to do.
The most common scenario is that they connect all the blacks together & reds together with me being called out after the resulting bang and one destroyed switch.
OP
Guest 004
Another good reason not to loop the neutral at the switch, keeps the DIYers at bay
OP
chiplard
Can't see how this defeats the object when i was talking about adding to the circuit at a later date, not doing it mid install.
After reading all 16 pages and 158 posts I can now come up with a valid reason for not looping neutrals at the switch and even then its lame.
Identification of conductors. If a DIYer or an inexperienced spark came along, he may think the neutral is a strapper that has not been sleeved (and we all see that every week). Told you it was a bit thin
I needed an excuse to try out my new labeller a couple of years ago...
Lou7
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Not saying i've never done it, sometimes it can't be avoided, but I was taught that it was bad practice to bring neutrals to the switch. I think in the old days a lot more installations were wired in conduit, even domestic, therefore neutral to switches very rarely needed, maybe for a neon, then you just carried the same principle to 3 plate wiring with t+e.
**2 plate wiring has no neutral at switches as it is for conduit systems only **.
**2 plate wiring has no neutral at switches as it is for conduit systems only **.
Has nobody ever wired switches with locating neon's it's very handy to have a looped neutral at the switch then. On a few of the industrial sites I worked on many years ago (late 70's early 80's) fitting locating neon's was standard practice so looping neutrals at the switch ain't that new or was it bad practice to fit things at the switch position that needed a neutral
I just can't understand some of the views posted in this thread. I am one of those that served an apprenticeship in the mid 70's if I hadn't moved on from what I learnt then I would still be using steel trunking and conduit and MICC instead of PVC trunking and conduit and FP cable.
Since I started in this trade / profession I have never stopped learning and probably never will the dinosaurs didn't adapt and look what happened to them. Yes I can be a bit picky over the way things are done / installed on site but that is more to produce a neat job than get pedantic over where a live or neutral is going to be jointed
There's more to the job than picking fault with other sparks methods or training. What annoys me is unnecessary connectors at switches because the sparks that wired it can't understand the different permutations of connecting two way switches and two way and intermediate switches but that is probably another thread
I just can't understand some of the views posted in this thread. I am one of those that served an apprenticeship in the mid 70's if I hadn't moved on from what I learnt then I would still be using steel trunking and conduit and MICC instead of PVC trunking and conduit and FP cable.
Since I started in this trade / profession I have never stopped learning and probably never will the dinosaurs didn't adapt and look what happened to them. Yes I can be a bit picky over the way things are done / installed on site but that is more to produce a neat job than get pedantic over where a live or neutral is going to be jointed
There's more to the job than picking fault with other sparks methods or training. What annoys me is unnecessary connectors at switches because the sparks that wired it can't understand the different permutations of connecting two way switches and two way and intermediate switches but that is probably another thread
It don't work like that when you are using discharge lighting
Now this is what I class as bad practice because no thought has been put into the installation and connecting up is going to be somebody else's problem
OP
davelerave
i remember asking my 'inspector' about this wiring method years back -he said to me no electrician 'worth his salt would do it that way'
he retired and a new man came in-he advised me to loop t+e to switches on dom work
simplifies connecting and replacing light fittings-no disadvantages that i'm aware of except more work and cable
might have to reconsider on some jobs now with price of cable
use the same wiring method throughout installation anyhow
he retired and a new man came in-he advised me to loop t+e to switches on dom work
simplifies connecting and replacing light fittings-no disadvantages that i'm aware of except more work and cable
might have to reconsider on some jobs now with price of cable
use the same wiring method throughout installation anyhow
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OP
Engineer54
I see this thread is still going on...lol!!! Anyone that is in any doubt that this method is bad practice only has to look at the picture someone posted on this thread, showing a 1 gang switch box being used as a joint box!!! Now imagine that box being used as a 2 or 3 gang switch point!!!! I wonder how many actually install 47mm back boxes when wiring in this method, ...not many i bet!!!
Complete circuits that has all it's wiring looped thru the switch boxes, has always been and still is bad practice in my book. If you Need a neutral at a switch box for a specific task such as EM lighting control, outside lighting point etc ...Fine, i have no problem with that at all. This crap about ending up with 7 cables at a ceiling point , just shows me that incompetence of designing circuits is at work. With all these modern accessories available these days, such as wago's and wago boxes, negates any need to turn switch boxes into joint boxes. One thing i'm dam sure of, and that is you'll not see complete circuits wired in this fashion on any specified prestige project in the UK.
I don't care a jot what you may think of my views on this matter, if being old school or whatever else you want to call it isn't to your liking, sorry ...but i'm not going to change my views based on what i've been reading on this thread, and i don't think for a second i'm going to change the views of those that think this wiring method is acceptable either.... lol!!!
Complete circuits that has all it's wiring looped thru the switch boxes, has always been and still is bad practice in my book. If you Need a neutral at a switch box for a specific task such as EM lighting control, outside lighting point etc ...Fine, i have no problem with that at all. This crap about ending up with 7 cables at a ceiling point , just shows me that incompetence of designing circuits is at work. With all these modern accessories available these days, such as wago's and wago boxes, negates any need to turn switch boxes into joint boxes. One thing i'm dam sure of, and that is you'll not see complete circuits wired in this fashion on any specified prestige project in the UK.
I don't care a jot what you may think of my views on this matter, if being old school or whatever else you want to call it isn't to your liking, sorry ...but i'm not going to change my views based on what i've been reading on this thread, and i don't think for a second i'm going to change the views of those that think this wiring method is acceptable either.... lol!!!
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RIGHT..... Want to get the bottom of this.... I'm fence sitting (RWJ = Coward)
I've set up a Poll (on a separate thread as you can't add on once a threads going).
PLEASE continue the debate here..... but feel free to cast your vote on the separate thread.
http://www.electriciansforums.net/e...rical-forum/33489-poll-neutrals-switches.html
I've set up a Poll (on a separate thread as you can't add on once a threads going).
PLEASE continue the debate here..... but feel free to cast your vote on the separate thread.
http://www.electriciansforums.net/e...rical-forum/33489-poll-neutrals-switches.html
OP
pushrod
Well wasted more than an hour of my life on this when i could have been doing something useful lol -
remember a couple of people saying not seen this before - here's a diagram for them or anyone else
Personally don't have a problem with either method as long as it is done properly with adequate space and connections, unfortunately not the case in many instances on both methods.
remember a couple of people saying not seen this before - here's a diagram for them or anyone else
Personally don't have a problem with either method as long as it is done properly with adequate space and connections, unfortunately not the case in many instances on both methods.
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Well wasted more than an hour of my life on this when i could have been doing something useful lol -
remember a couple of people saying not seen this before - here's a diagram for them or anyone else
Personally don't have a problem with either method as long as it is done properly with adequate space and connections, unfortunately not the case in many instances on both methods.
Lovely that Pushrod......
Warning hotlinking is theft!!!! Slap your wrist!!!!
OP
Deleted member 9648
Still unable to spot any viable reason here to explain why it is bad practice.......any wiring method is bad practice if poorly carried out.
Why cant the against lobby come up with anything better than "it's bad practice"??
As already stated here by myself and others it may in many circumstances improve the safety and practicality of connecting wiring to modern luminaires
How can that be bad practice if the installer provdes a switch box capable of taking the number of wires and ensures the neutrals are properly terminated??...in many cases more properly terminated than at many of the poorly designed luminaires we areexpected to install.
Hawk81
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Surely you can see that pic of the switch was down to poor design as is the idea of 7 cables at a light, therefore that is not a reason to rubish this method. As with many other threads you know best and you can not take anyone elses views on board. You have yet to give a valid reason why you think it is bad practice.
OP
Adam W
If the installation is designed using plastic switches and an earthing terminal hasn't been provided on either the backbox or switchplate does that mean an earth shouldn't be taken to the switch at all? If manufacturers aren't providing us with earth terminals anymore maybe they're telling us they want us to revert to the old style method of not taking earths to switches.
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What happens when the householder goes to B&Q and replaces said switch with a nice metal one?
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Exactly, is there a 'common loop' terminal on an intermediate switch?
OP
Adam W
If the householder saw the need to replace the switch with a different type (ie metal rather than plastic) that would be bad planning on the part of the designer.
OP
Electricalserv
Rewire?
OP
Adam W
Rewire.
OP
Electricalserv
No need when you can just connector block earths.
OP
Engineer54
Why?? Because that is my honest opinion of this wiring method, so why would i change my opinion, certainly not going to change it based on what's been written here... And as i said, i'm not going to change your opinion, that this is a good wiring method, ...end of as far as i'm concerned!!!
As far as ''Surely you can see that pic of the switch was down to poor design as is the idea of 7 cables at a light, therefore that is not a reason to rubish this method.'' that to me, is just making excuses and ignoring the fact that this is exactly what's going on out there. As for the multiple cables at the light, I already stated i think, that the 7 cables thing was bad design at work...
As far as ''Surely you can see that pic of the switch was down to poor design as is the idea of 7 cables at a light, therefore that is not a reason to rubish this method.'' that to me, is just making excuses and ignoring the fact that this is exactly what's going on out there. As for the multiple cables at the light, I already stated i think, that the 7 cables thing was bad design at work...
OP
Adam W
Can you? So how is that different to connector blocking neutrals?
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We'll have to get the manufacters to lobby the IET to somehow change or remove reg 412.2.3.2
Though not a bad idea really, there is a few I'd like to change, perhaps we can start our own lobby
OP
Adam W
Good plan - we could march on parliament. Maybe we could disrupt the royal wedding - there's still time! "No to 412.2.3.2!"We'll have to get the manufacters to lobby the IET to somehow change or remove reg 412.2.3.2
Though not a bad idea really, there is a few I'd like to change, perhaps we can start our own lobby
OP
Electricalserv
Its different because there is less cables....duh
OP
Adam W
... But then you get less cables at the light fitting, which might not have a pattress to hide them in.
Hawk81
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Well you are entitled to your opinion but you can not back up your claim to it being bad practice so therefore it is wrong of you to say it is.
OP
Electricalserv
O.k so you also want to stop takeing CPC's to switches and when someone wants a chrome switch adding you tell them they need a rewire....Absolute nonsense....
And if you are wiring loops in switches you are always going to have CPC's there anyway...so bit of a numb nut scenario really wasn't it.
OP
Electricalserv
When did I say anything about not taking CPCs to switches?
Tell me, what did your fail comment follow up....Mine and novus's discussion on removing cpc cables from switch's.....and why it is different having cpc's linked by a connector block and not neutrals aswell. Because neutrals needent be there and this only enforces the fact that there is not enough room at the switch because the CPC is already Connector blocked.
Major fail on your behalf
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OP
Adam W
Yes it is absolute nonsense - it makes about as much sense as not wanting to take a neutral to the switch because then the switch box would be a joint box.
Do you see? If you're connecting a cpc in there why not a neutral? Having everything in the switch pattress saves having to stuff it all behind a wall light together with a bit of connector block for a live loop.
There is one switch in a room whereas there might be 9 downlighters and maybe several wall lights to boot - trying to find which one the live loops in would be akin to a game of deal or no deal.
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