Neutrals at switches

[Electricalserv]

With so many cables in a backbox there is certainly a more likelihood of damage to one of them cables. Especially in regards to screwing the faceplate on.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

hope this works

 

[VoltzElectrical]

not the switch! I know THAT works!!

 

[jeremy]

Isn't there an argument for both systems depending on the application?

 

[morph]

plenty of space in there

 

[Guest 004]

It's closed, case dismissed, the prosecution failed to turn up!

sorry iq I forgot that you are always right.

ok to conclude

back in the day 'we' was taught not to do it
there is not a reg against it
modern wiring practices have adopted the method, just wish crabtree, mk and others would.

Not been on the tools for 10 years, but I think i would use the looped neutral at switches now, if it made things easier, but I certainly would not have considered it before today!

I am converted....

 

[IQ Electrical]

Isn't there an argument for both systems depending on the application?

I (and others) did make that point about 50 posts ago.

 

[Guest 004]

Isn't there an argument for both systems depending on the application?

for sure

as already stated, I would not have considered it before today

 

[sparks1234]

I don't like neutrals at switches if they are not needed, and you will have to block it, which I totally disagree with.

Why do you disagree with it? most connections are within a screw terminal of some sort or other, thats all a block is

 

[Guest 004]

View attachment 5409

hope this works

that is just pants, and why I would not do it

 

[Guest 004]

Why do you disagree with it? most connections are within a screw terminal of some sort or other, thats all a block is

ok lets go to bigger switches, and by that I mean 4, 5 ,6 gangs and upwards, and you had maybe 5,6 feeds at the one switch, its going to look pretty ugly, and what would you think if you took the switch off and 7 connector blocks sprung out at you!

 

[VoltzElectrical]

that is just pants, and why I would not do it

Nowt wrong with it. it works, all terminations available for inspection. Why is it PANTS?

 

[Electricalserv]

View attachment 5409

hope this works

Percentage is rising of nipping one of them with screws

 

[jason jones]

personnaly neutral at switch because im fed up of going round to my brothers every time he buys new lights and they wont switch cuz the dope has bundled everything that is brown in the same block and i have to sort it out.

 

[Guest 004]

personnaly neutral at switch because im fed up of going round to my brothers every time he buys new lights and they wont switch cuz the dope has bundled everything that is brown in the same block and i have to sort it out.

but how many times have you been asked to fix a light 'cos be blows up when the switch is turned on, always a nice little earner

 

[sparks1234]

ok lets go to bigger switches, and by that I mean 4, 5 ,6 gangs and upwards, and you had maybe 5,6 feeds at the one switch, its going to look pretty ugly, and what would you think if you took the switch off and 7 connector blocks sprung out at you!

Yep, agree with you but generally I think the post was directed at normal run of the mill rewire.

 

[Electricalserv]

Also if you've got a dimmer switch less room

 

[IQ Electrical]

ok lets go to bigger switches, and by that I mean 4, 5 ,6 gangs and upwards, and you had maybe 5,6 feeds at the one switch, its going to look pretty ugly, and what would you think if you took the switch off and 7 connector blocks sprung out at you!

And that could be a scenario where neutrals at the switch are not a good idea.

Again, as a competent designer /installer, you choose the wiring system that best suits the installation, don't just make sweeping statements on whether a method is right or wrong!

I'm certainly not always right, but I try to look at things objectively without propagating the weird myths that seem to pop up constantly.

 

[Guest 004]

Yep, agree with you but generally I think the post was directed at normal run of the mill rewire.

sorry I am more of an commercial/industrial installer

 

[timo]

Been working on and doing this myself for a while. Its common in new build apartments i have found and also i do it when wiring for down lights. Saves guessing what light the guy put the rats nest of a joint box. Nothing wrong with it just a "modern" way i guess.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

Percentage is rising of nipping one of them with screws

0.0 %. LOOK at the backbox???

 

[Des 56]

C'mon now you neutral switchers ,the ceiling lads are getting the better of you in these last few posts

 

[Electricalserv]

What if customer wants to change from normal switching to dimmer?? Changing accessory now becomes more than a straight forward switch from one to the other.

 

[Electricalserv]

0.0 %. LOOK at the backbox???

0.0%? screws continue through the bolt in plastc boxes????? Also if no plastic box still viable that more chance of nipping with screw

 

[sparks1234]

Does this put it all into perspective at all, found this last week under somebodies floor boards

 

[topquark]

View attachment 5410
Does this put it all into perspective at all, found this last week under somebodies floor boards

Looks like a picture of the spidge bin

 

[Electricalserv]

View attachment 5410
Does this put it all into perspective at all, found this last week under somebodies floor boards

Thats what you are likely to find in switch's in 5 years time

 

[IQ Electrical]

Thats what you are likely to find in switch's in 5 years time

You said you hadn't even seen this method before so on what basis are your scenario's from?

 

[Electricalserv]

You said you hadn't even seen this method before so on what basis are your scenario's from?

I base my scenario on the response of this forum.

 

[sparks1234]

The dog that is removed from the reds in the middle had 11 cables going into it, had worked loose because it was under the landing floor, luckily the house is to be rewired this year

 

[Phil]

switch/loop at ceiling:
ring/radial:
swa/conduit
pvc conduit/steel conduit

we all have our own preferences and ways of doing things and as long as its to the regs and is fit for purpose it does not matter why we choose one over the other. different circumstances call for different approaches to the situation and methods

 

[Adam W]

sorry I am more of an commercial/industrial installer

Why can you not do the 'loop into the switch' method in a commercial/industrial situation?

• If the client wants the emergency lights switched separately (eg in a corridor where they want the lights to stay on during a light test) the auxiliary terminal would be fed from the keyswitch so you wouldn't be able to use it as live loop, so you'd need to link the loop in the back of the box which doesn't leave you much room to screw the lid back.
• You'd have exactly the same problem with finding the rose which the switch wire comes off - why spend ages up a ladder or on top of desks when you can just take the switch off?
• Looping in to the switch makes moving/rewiring individual circuits a lot more straightforward - strip the circuit back to the switch and continue it from there.

Obviously if you were wiring using singles you wouldn't loop anywhere.

 

[Guest 004]

Obviously if you were wiring using singles you wouldn't loop anywhere.

really? oh I feel so stupid now

 

[Adam W]

View attachment 5410
Does this put it all into perspective at all, found this last week under somebodies floor boards

That's a good example of how wiring methods change - that would have been perfectly acceptable 'back in the day'.

 

[Adam W]

really? oh I feel so stupid now

That doesn't really answer the question.

... Or address any of the points I just raised.

 

[jeremy]

I still can't see that there is a right or a wrong. Different applications may need different methods. ( Are we supposed to take sides?)

 

[Adam W]

I use both, but the 'side' against seems more militant. I can think of at least one valid reason why you shouldn't do it, particularly on 2 way circuits, but I don't see why I should mention it - I've picked my side now.

 

[charliefarli]

i feed switches when there is a two gang or above switch.wall lights or outside lights.just makes life easier.and you use less cable.you cant tell me its better practise to feed some of these wall lights with the amount of space they give you for connections.ridiculous.i use both methods to best suit situation!

 

[Guest 004]

really? oh I feel so stupid now

you still need to loop singles m8y

 

[robsparx]

Don't see why anyone would have a problem with this. Must just be ignorance having been taught it another way. And don't know how some people have NEVER come across a lighting circuit wired this way

 

[Adam W]

you still need to loop singles m8y

Could you not feed the switch with the live then take the switched live off to the lights, and take the neutral straight there?

 

[Dunc]

I think the difference is having a decent apprenticeship where you was taught what was what, and not what these new kids on the block get taught at college today, then go out into the big world of sparking without any practical experience.

That is possibly one of the most sweeping and moronic statements i have ever read on this site. I served a 3 year apprenticeship with a well respected local NIC EIC approved contracting firm and i learnt both methods of wiring lighting circuits.

sorry I am more of an commercial/industrial installer

And i think this sums up why you have never come across looped supplies at a switch as you're obviously far more au fait with singles in conduit.

Curious to know how you would wire a room with only 5A sockets, wall lights or a number of recessed lights. Where abouts would you put a junction box where all the connections were easily accessible? I think i'll just continue doing it wrong by feeding the switch and faffing about with a maximum of two cables at each fitting.

 

[UNG]

Let me put it this way then, .... I wouldn't and haven't allowed it on any of my projects in the past, and wont allow it on my next project!!! If a neutral is needed for outside lights and the like, fine i have no-problem with that, but i do have a problem with using the switch points as junction boxes as a wiring system!!! No Way Ho Say!!!!!

Only ever seen this tried once on a project, and that was on a stand alone smallish building on a large shopping centre complex. In this case the building was very much like a normal house build, and using T&E wiring methods. Only caught it after a good 2/3rds of the first fix had been installed. Just the same, ...it all came out!!!

I would love to know how you justified the extra cost to the customer just to suit your idealistic approach, you appear to be closed to change so I can only assume you still use rubber cable!!

I'm getting to understand the meaning of Domestic installers now!!!!

Was there any need for this comment


With regard to apprenticeships I was taught to loop lives at the switch and neutrals at the light fitting using 6241y and 6181y. Whats next will we not be able to use all the different methods of two way switching because it doesn't suit one person

Still not sure why after 140+ posts there is still no valid explanation why neutral should not be looped at the switch, I think the comments regarding damage by the switch fixing screws is a bit lame as I have seen plenty of live cables damaged by screws

 

[robsparx]

Originally Posted by MrEnigma
I think the difference is having a decent apprenticeship where you was taught what was what, and not what these new kids on the block get taught at college today, then go out into the big world of sparking without any practical experience.

That is possibly one of the most sweeping and moronic statements i have ever read on this site. I served a 3 year apprenticeship with a well respected local NIC EIC approved contracting firm and i learnt both methods of wiring lighting circuits.

I agree. I get the feeling that all the people so against neutrals at the switch are old school middle aged sparks who don't like change and are stuck in their ways.

Maybe I just made a sweeping and moronic statement myself lol

 

[robd]

Risk falling of a ladder what about takeing a Zs reading....Hold on lets just do the calculation Zs= Ze + R1 + R2 like the Niceic say to do.

I've never seen this and never ever been taught to this. Il also never teach anyone to do it.

Must be wrong if you've never seen it or been taught it then!

 

[BillyTheSparks]

Also if you've got a dimmer switch less room

When I'm wiring any new install I fit 35mm Metal back boxes as standard everywhere (makes fitting slimplate/screwless accessories SO much easier) and have even fitted 47mm back boxes for switches as I asked the client before hand to ensure we all knew what type of switch is to be fitted.

I never use the 16mm or even 25mm boxes anymore

I'm all for wiring at the switch

 

[Electricalserv]

Must be wrong if you've never seen it or been taught it then!

I don't think anyone has said its wrong just that some would not do it. A more valid point was the one of adding to the circuit. It becomes much more of a ballache than having to lift boards up and looping out of the rose to an extra light. Instead having to chase wall just to carry on loop to an extra fitting.

Nope never came across this ever.

 

[IQ Electrical]

I don't think anyone has said its wrong just that some would not do it. A more valid point was the one of adding to the circuit. It becomes much more of a ballache than having to lift boards up and looping out of the rose to an extra light. Instead having to chase wall just to carry on loop to an extra fitting.

Nope never came across this ever.

It was saying it was wrong that caused this thread to take off, along with casting doubt on the training of 'neutral in the box' practitioners and an implication that this was something unique to domestic installers!

 

[Electricalserv]

It was saying it was wrong that caused this thread to take off, along with casting doubt on the training of 'neutral in the box' practitioners and an implication that this was something unique to domestic installers!

IQ you become so pedantic at times and pop up just to have your say when it suits you. Mainly when wronging someone.

 

[IQ Electrical]

IQ you become so pedantic at times and pop up just to have your say when it suits you. Mainly when wronging someone.

Pedantic meeeeee?

Maybe but I'd hate to think that I mainly post to 'wrong someone'.