New sub board for shed swa advice.

[Deleted member 26818]

My fault, I just keep on answering him.
Time to call it a day I think.
I shall go see if I can get a horse to drink some water.

 

[bigbob1]

RCD in house, so you are protecting the cable and can see if your freezer has tripped out.
RCD in shed for circuits also. Nuisance tripping means they are working! If the shed or house RCD go then good that’s what they are meant to do! Find the fault!
Do not export the TNCS earth! Your equipotential zone stops 1.5m away from the footprint of the building containing the supply!
TT the shed like you would with any external buildings and portacabins etc

 

[bigbob1]

If anyone can think of any other use for an SWA gland other than being on the end of an SWA cable then please feel free to share your stupidity with all.

 

[Wilko]

... The task of work is being done when the domestic electrical installation is being designed, constructed, inspected and tested ... Thus the law does apply to people doing electrical installations works, whether employed or self employed when they are at work doing the work...

Hi - this has got a little complicated for my brain, but it seems @spinlondon (#96) post and yours agree ... That's me running for cover .

 

[Wilko]

If anyone can think of any other use for an SWA gland other than being on the end of an SWA cable then please feel free to share your stupidity with all.

I'm gunna be smart and not reply to that ... dohhhh

 

[DPG]

Bigbob, can you give me the reg number that says all external buildings should be TT'd please.

 

[DPG]

Duplicate post deleted.

 

[netblindpaul]

How on earth did we go from whether there was a “correct end” to earth SWA to this garbage ......

OK Murdoch, I'll tell you, because, it seems that nobody understands the requirements of the law when it comes to safe electrical installations.
It seems that people think they are exempt from the law when working on domestic jobs.
They are not, and HASAWA and EAWR are still relevant, after the contractor leaves the premises.
It isn't just my view, it is also that of Her Majesty's Coroners' office.
Now once there is an understanding that HASAWA and EAWR apply to domestic works, and that just because the spark walks away does not end his duty, then we can move forward.
I have explained that those at work have a legal responsibility for things that are under their control bu quoting the legislation.
You really need to understand the laws you have to comply with first then you will understand where I am coming from with regard to the SWA of the cable.
Once HASAWA S3, and S7 are understood, then EAWR S3 you will have a chance of understanding the reason behind why the SWA must be connected to earth at the supply end, not the load end.

 

[Toneyz]

I am fully understanding the situation, and this is not just my opinion it is that of many others, and other organisations.
The task of work is being done when the domestic electrical installation is being designed, constructed, inspected and tested, or do you not charge for the domestic installations you do Spin?
Do the rest of you do all your domestic installations works as DIY, therefore no money changes hands and nobody gets paid for any domestic installations works?
I know that the domestic installation industry is a race to the bottom, but I don't believe that no one gets paid for domestic installations works.
How do all these domestic electricians and those working for builders doing new builds pay for their food and mortgages of they are not at work and being paid when they are doing the electrical works?

Thus the law does apply to people doing electrical installations works, whether employed or self employed when they are at work doing the work.
Therefore the Health and Safety At Work etc. Act 1974 applies to these people when they are at work, if it doesn't why to all these house building companies make such a bloody massive thing about Health and Safety on their construction sites.

So is every house building company in the country wrong then Spin? Because that is what you are saying. You are saying that HASAWA & EAWR do not apply to domestic works.

Why are you still banging on about this I thought that this thread was about a supply to a shed? I am not taking away the importance of the subject but it would have been better to have the debate under a new/separate thread.

 

[bigbob1]

its physics.
And you are not allowed to export a tncs earth without DNO permission.
In fact it is such basic physics I learnt this in year 2 at college.
The regs are a ‘guide book’ not a ‘must do’ book.
You’d best hope I am never an expert witness and you are being prosecuted by us at the HSE.

 

[Pete999]

its physics.
And you are not allowed to export a tncs earth without DNO permission.
In fact it is such basic physics I learnt this in year 2 at college.
The regs are a ‘guide book’ not a ‘must do’ book.
You’d best hope I am never an expert witness and you are being prosecuted by us at the HSE.

So what is the BS regulation No that refers to this issue? Whilst I don't doubt your sincerity, despite your posturing and threats, show the forum some evidence, not in the form of more threats, but as written evidence.

 

[bigbob1]

its physics.
And you aren’t allowed to export a tncs earth without DNO permission.
In fact it is such basic physics I learnt this in year 2 at college.
The regs are a ‘guide book’ not a ‘must do’ book.
You’d best hope I am never an expert witness and you are being prosecuted.
IET guidance note 5
ESQCR 2002
EAWR 89.

‘Touch voltages’ ‘no equipotential zone’

Ta

 

[Pete999]

its physics.
And you aren’t allowed to export a tncs earth without DNO permission.
In fact it is such basic physics I learnt this in year 2 at college.
The regs are a ‘guide book’ not a ‘must do’ book.
You’d best hope I am never an expert witness and you are being prosecuted.
IET guidance note 5
ESQCR 2002
EAWR 89.

‘Touch voltages’ ‘no equipotential zone’

Ta

Thanks for this I'll take a look see, although no regulation No as yet

 

[Wilko]

Hi - apologies if I have misunderstood, is it Reg 411.4.3 you're thinking of ? This Reg notes that PEN conductors are prohibited in consumer's installations. Hopefully the discussion here would not be about doing that (!!!) but just taking L, N and an appropriately sized CPC and protective bonding conductor (if needed) out to the shed.

 

[Pete999]

I can find nothing in the documents referred to, just a regulation no is required, if you are brought before a court of law for dangerous electrical installation practices, then the BS will be a point of reference for any prosecutor, when referring to the EAWR 1981, as you say the Regulations are not a statutory document, but a guide to upholding the EAWR 1981, show us a regulation number from BS 7671 which deals with this issue, and you may get some constructive comments, rather than quoiting 3 documents at random.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Ok, so let me see if I get this straight.
We can’t export TN-C-S because of physics, but if we ask the DNO for permission, then we can.
To verify this, look in GN5, ESQCR and the EAWR.

 

[bigbob1]

Understand the difference between a ‘main earth terminal’ and a ‘earth marshalling terminal’ in respect to taking a supply out of an equipotential zone.
There is also only one use for an SWA gland.
EAWR section 8 May be a bit complicated for some of you but I would read it a few times and adhere to best engineering practises. Not your interpretation of a non statutory document.

 

[Pete999]

Understand the difference between a ‘main earth terminal’ and a ‘earth marshalling terminal’ in respect to taking a supply out of an equipotential zone.
There is also only one use for an SWA gland.
EAWR section 8 May be a bit complicated for some of you but I would read it a few times and adhere to best engineering practises. Not your interpretation of a non statutory document.

What is an earth marshaling terminal? an MET or what, and what is the only use for an SWA gland?

 

[Octopus]

To verify this, look in GN5, ESQCR and the EAWR.

And how many of us have , or have ready access to all of these ?

 

[Pete999]

And how many of us have , or have ready access to all of these ?

Where is Marconi / or Rob when you need them?

 

[netblindpaul]

And how many of us have , or have ready access to all of these ?

Murdoch, the only one of those that you don't have free access to is GN5.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Not sure that the difference between a MET and an EMT has any significance?
Regulation 8 of the EAWR is not particularly complicated, though it is a bit contradictory.
Tells us to earth all conductors not intended to be live, which obviously contradicts Regulation 9.

 

[Dave OCD]

Is BigBob1 NetblindPaul in disguise ? They're equally good at generating irrelevant posts, never being wrong and avoiding the answers to very simple questions by spouting an abundance of waffle.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

As it happens I have access to all of the listed publications, though my copy of GN5 is probably out of date.

 

[Strima]

I'll be back in a minute, getting low on popcorn and beer.

 

[bigbob1]

yes consult the DNO. It is their Earth not yours. It’s their TX not yours. It is their engineers that calculate where and when a neutral can be used as CNE.

No if you ask them for permission and they say ‘yes’ then you can. Obviously.

‘
With TT systems, the consumer must provide his or her own connection to Earth, i.e. by installing a suitable earth electrode local to the installation. The circumstances in which a distributor will not provide a means of earthing for the consumer are usually where the distributor cannot guarantee the earth connection back to the source, (IET)

IET. Guidance Note 5: Protection Against Electric Shock, 7th Edition.

That means you are guaranteeing it! But it’s not yours! ESQCR 24 you will be in jail.

installations supplied from TN-C-S (PME) systems, in view of the risk of danger in the event of an open circuit neutral fault on the distributor's low voltage network. ESQCR Regulation 25(2) prevents a distributor from providing a PME supply to premises (IET)
IET. Guidance Note 5: Protection Against Electric Shock, 7th Edition.

ESQCR 25 (2). Taking a DNO supply and provided earthing arrangement out of their specified equipotential zone. Jail.

You do understand that out of all the documents electricians ‘use’ BS7671 is the last one! And it starts with EAWR 89 and ends with ESQCR....with HASAWA and CDM regulations in between...

 

[Octopus]

Murdoch, the only one of those that you don't have free access to is GN5.

Are you EVER going to quote a BS 7671 reg that states clearly that SWA must be earthed at the supply end ?

 

[bigbob1]

I’ll let you in on a little known secret....

While the publisher and contributors believe that the information and guidance given in this work is correct, all parties must rely upon their own skill and judgement when making use of it. The publisher and contributors do not assume any liability to anyone for any loss or damage caused by any error or omission in the work, whether such error or omission is the result of negligence or any other cause. Any and all such liability is disclaimed. (IET)

IET. BS 7671:2018 Requirements for Electrical Installations, IET Wiring Regulations, 18th Edition.

 

[bigbob1]

ditto. Being a member of the IET and registered with the engineering council has its perks.

 

[bigbob1]

Are you EVER going to quote a BS 7671 reg that states clearly that SWA must be earthed at the supply end ?

Are you going to ignore ‘manufacturers instructions’? And are you going to let us all know what ‘SWA glands’ are produced for if not to go on SWA cable?
SWA is an extraneous conductive part......go back to college.
134.1.1

 

[bigbob1]

I’m guessing any MI you come across gets put through a stuffing gland!

 

[Deleted member 26818]

It is a requirement of ESQCR (Reg 24 I believe) for the DNO to provide consumers a connection point to either the network neutral or protective conductor, for connection of the installation earth.
Regulation 25 allows the DNO to refuse this connection only if the installation fails to comply with BS7671, or could pose a danger or cause an interruption of supply.

 

[bigbob1]

‘I don’t have to do a risk assessment because it doesn’t say so in the regs’ Said the domestic installer.

114.1

 

[Deleted member 26818]

ditto. Being a member of the IET and registered with the engineering council has its perks.

Does it?
Can’t say I’ve really noticed.

 

[Dave OCD]

I rest my case.

 

[bigbob1]

It is a requirement of ESQCR (Reg 24 I believe) for the DNO to provide consumers a connection point to either the network neutral or protective conductor, for connection of the installation earth.
Regulation 25 allows the DNO to refuse this connection only if the installation fails to comply with BS7671, or could pose a danger or cause an interruption of supply.

So where does it say in the regs you run can export the DNO earth?!

 

[bigbob1]

It is a requirement of ESQCR (Reg 24 I believe) for the DNO to provide consumers a connection point to either the network neutral or protective conductor, for connection of the installation earth.
Regulation 25 allows the DNO to refuse this connection only if the installation fails to comply with BS7671, or could pose a danger or cause an interruption of supply.

So where does it say in the regs you run can export the DNO earth?!

Does it?
Can’t say I’ve really noticed.

What’s your membership number?

 

[Richard Burns]

My take on this is that any paid work being done, no matter the location, comes under HASAWA and EAWR, this includes domestic properties.
Because the requirements are to maintain safety, this must be done during the works and can be achieved, electrically, by following BS7671.
Therefore, only if there are no changes, after the work has finished it must not present a danger; if it does present a danger then the work that was being done was not, at that time, in accordance with the law.
In that respect the HASAWA and EAWR do apply to the work once it is completed (but most defences would claim later changes had been made!). However when no one is actually working in a domestic property the HASAWA and EAWR do not apply to what is happening in the present, only to the effects that had happened in the past.

Regarding SWA I do not believe it is required to earth the armour, that is not being used as a cpc, at the supply end; it is just best practice. The shorter fault path leads to better compliance with the minimum standards of BS7671 by reducing the impedance of the fault path.
Earthing the armour at both ends, when it is not a cpc, may lead to circulating currents through the armour, but the level of disadvantage must be weighed up against the advantages of having two earthed points on an exposed conductive part.
However where the two ends are in installations with different earthing arrangements then 542.1.3 applies and the supply end only must be earthed.
The default case of the armour as a cpc clearly requires continuity and therefore earthing at both ends.

 

[Octopus]

Are you going to ignore ‘manufacturers instructions’? And are you going to let us all know what ‘SWA glands’ are produced for if not to go on SWA cable?
SWA is an extraneous conductive part......go back to college.
134.1.1

That DOES NOT answer my question, the question that has haunted this thread for pages

Please answer my question ......

 

[Wilko]

Sorry @bigbob1 but you have gone beyond my simple mind. I've read the references you've kindly provided and I can't see a problem using an already in place TNCS/PME DNO cutout to supply a shed. No going to jail that I can see, provided it's done in accord with our usual BS7671. What have I missed ?

 

[bigbob1]

That DOES NOT answer my question, the question that has haunted this thread for pages

Please answer my question ......

That is the answer......134.1.1 and you don’t understand because you have’nt got enough experience or training. There’s only 2 places I can name where you insulate SWA from connection.

Using VSD’s
And leaving equipotential zones.

 

[Dave OCD]

The question was and still is WHERE DOES IT STATE THAT THE ARMOUR MUST BE CONNECTED TO EARTH AT THE SUPPLY END

 

[bigbob1]

Sorry mate, but you have now gone beyond my simple mind. I've read the references you've kindly provided and I can't see a problem using an already in place TNCS/PME DNO cutout to supply the shed. No going to jail that I can see, provided it's done in accord with our usual BS7671. What have I missed ?

That ‘given earth’ is for ‘that equipotential zone’

You won’t understand because you can’t grasp the importance of an equipotential zone on a tncs supply. So I 100% know you will never understand. So will stop there with you.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

So where does it say in the regs you run can export the DNO earth?!

More importantly, where does it say you cannot?
Membership No. 86042686.

 

[Dave OCD]

That ‘given earth’ is for ‘that equipotential zone’

You won’t understand because you can’t grasp the importance of an equipotential zone on a tncs supply. So I 100% know you will never understand. So will stop there with you.

Arrogant and extremely disrespectful !

 

[bigbob1]

The question was and still is WHERE DOES IT STATE THAT THE ARMOUR MUST BE CONNECTED TO EARTH AT THE SUPPLY END

Because it is in the HOUSE and running through the fabric of the HOUSE and in the HOUSE equipotential zone...because it’s an extraneous conductive part.....and not with a strap but with an SWA gland 134.1.1

 

[bigbob1]

Arrogant and extremely disrespectful !

Nothing more to say to you.

 

[bigbob1]

More importantly, where does it say you cannot?
Membership No. 86042686.

Look at that you are slowly working out how a ‘guide book’ works....

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Look at that you are slowly working out how a ‘guide book’ works....

Now you’re being a dick.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

The thing about Bigbob1 and his arguments, is that they are not based in fact and he cannot back up anything he states.
If a law of physics prevents us from doing something, permission from the DNO will not suddenly allow us to do it.
GN5 (although my copy is from 2004) makes no mention of us not being allowed to export any earthing system.
Same applies to ESQCR and EAWR.
In fact, ESQCR requires the DNO to allow me to export the earthing system, the only reasons they can refuse is if the installation does not comply with BS7671, is unsafe or if it might cause a disruption in network supply.