No Paperwork For New Consumer Unit Installation

[Trimglafix]

My mother has recently had a new consumer unit installed but has not been provided with any paperwork (other than a payment receipt). She says the installer did not mention that any would follow later.
I don't think that is right / legal. Surely she should receive a certificate to show the work has been done in conformance with regulations etc?

 

[Octopus]

You are quite correct. A reputable electrician would have dealt wuth the labc part p requirement too.

best you ask them for this

 

[Darkwood]

The paperwork is what protects the 'Electrician' if anything goes wrong, it shows (s)he did the relevent tests, ensured (s)he didn't reconnect anything that would be considered dangerous and reflects their competence to do the work, from a legal stance whether (s)he is required to provide the appropriate cert's I couldn't say but from a 'protecting their own posterior' angle, well it should be the minimum service that they provide such paperwork.

I would ring the contractor on your mothers behalf - explain you had the board changed for Insurance reasons and they are requesting testing Certificates for the board change and express they should have been provided with the board change.. this should make it harder for them to fob you off if you approach from this angle

 

[Trimglafix]

You are quite correct. A reputable electrician would have dealt wuth the labc part p requirement too.

best you ask them for this

Thanks for your prompt reply Murdoch. To be clear, what exactly should she be requesting from them? Is it just a certificate that the installer prints out or something more formal from a 'governing body'?

 

[Octopus]

Thanks for your prompt reply Murdoch. To be clear, what exactly should she be requesting from them? Is it just a certificate that the installer prints out or something more formal from a 'governing body'?

ALL fuseboard changes require an EIC (electrical Installation certificate) to be completed and provided to the customer AND in England and Wales there needs to be a certificate of compliance for Building Regs Part P.

Do you know how long this person was on site and how much they charged?

 

[Trimglafix]

ALL fuseboard changes require an EIC (electrical Installation certificate) to be completed and provided to the customer AND in England and Wales there needs to be a certificate of compliance for Building Regs Part P.

Do you know how long this person was on site and how much they charged?

Thanks again Murdoch. I will get her to request those.
From memory I believe she said the hours were approximately 9am to 5pm and he charged £600 for the consumer unit install. He also replaced a simple light fitting in one room (the type where a wire hangs down with light fitting on bottom) & put a new double socket on the wall just behind consumer unit. For this he charged an extra £75.
I will confirm figures when I talk to her again.

 

[Darkwood]

Thanks again Murdoch. I will get her to request those.
From memory I believe she said the hours were approximately 9am to 5pm and he charged £600 for the consumer unit install. He also replaced a simple light fitting in one room (the type where a wire hangs down with light fitting on bottom) & put a new double socket on the wall just behind consumer unit. For this he charged an extra £75.
I will confirm figures when I talk to her again.

I cannot see where the money and Labour has gone here, how many circuits are there on the new fuseboard?

 

[Trimglafix]

I cannot see where the money and Labour has gone here, how many circuits are there on the new fuseboard?

The box was a Schneider 9 (from memory). Not sure what is meant by circuits but if you mean the trip switches I think 2 banks of four and she mentioned he said there were a couple spare in case she needed to add anything else later. House is a 3 bedroom semi detached.

 

[Hellmooth]

Seems pretty excessive for what has been described!

 

[Trimglafix]

Seems pretty excessive for what has been described!

Now it has been mentioned, a quick look does suggest the job was overpriced too! On whatprice.co.uk it appears to have been charged at twice the going rate.
The box was re-positioned at the other side of interior wall from the originals position, but everything was done in a day therefore it can't have added that much to the labour charge. I see a Shneider 9 can be purchased for about £60 & the light fitting & socket must only add about a tenner. I'm sure there will have been other minor expenses but it must surely leave a minimum of £500 for the days labour. Is that the going rate for an electrician? I have no idea.

 

[Hellmooth]

I wouldn't mind being that electrician if that is the going rate.......

The materials would be no more than £150 if it was an Amendment 3 metal consumer unit.

 

[Midwest]

You mentioned relocating the new consumer unit, were the existing circuit cables extended and some form of enclosure used to do so? Was your mother given a quotation for the work in question? It does on the face of it seem rather expensive, did the installer give a breakdown in his invoice?

 

[Hellmooth]

Someone charging that much is never going to give a breakdown of costs, will try and hide it in the materials!

There may have been more work involved, but as the OP says it was done in 1 day so is pretty steep!

 

[Midwest]

Some electricians may wait for their bill to be paid, before submitting an EIC. Although they are not suppose to.

 

[davesparks]

Some electricians may wait for their bill to be paid, before submitting an EIC. Although they are not suppose to.

Who says we aren't supposed to?

 

[Midwest]

Elecsa......whom I with, say I would be a very naughty boy to do such a thing......and of course I don't.

 

[davesparks]

Elecsa......whom I with, say I would be a very naughty boy to do such a thing......and of course I don't.

That doesn't surprise me, the NICEIC assessor advised me the complete opposite a few years ago.

It's in my terms and conditions and printed at the bottom of each quote that I require a deposit before starting and only issue certificates once payment is received.

 

[Midwest]

I'm prepared to be corrected on this (no expert on contract law). However your certificate is part of your work (BS7671 requires certificates on completion of work), and your contract with your customer is to complete the work you quoted or estimated. If you have a customer who hasn't paid they could argue, that haven't done so because you haven't completed your work for them (given them a cert). So you should issue your cert, in a timely manner, and take action against customers for outstanding or late payments. That's the official company line anyway!

 

[Midwest]

Sorry Dave posted before reading your reply. I see you state that in your T&C (re certs). Think you might need to seek advice on that, if ever you got in such circumstances. A recent copy of Elecsa/NICEIC connections publication, advised against withholding certs until payment is received.

 

[Trimglafix]

Thank you for all the further comments. To answer a few questions posed;
It was previously a grey metal box consumer unit with the fusewire type fuses in.
I will look into whether wires were extended next time I am visiting as I don't know (though still only a days work).
The bill was paid on the day of fitting. It was paid by debit card using a Merchant Terminal;

 

[Midwest]

As previously stated, you should receive an Electrical Installation Certificate (EIC) for this work. You will need to find out whether the installer is registered with a government approved scheme (such as Napit, Elecsa or NICEIC, there are others) or is suitably qualified to carry out such work. This is because the work has to be notified with the local building control (LBC). Notification is done automatically through one of the schemes, or if not the installer my have some process with LBC. I'm in a scheme, so can't comment on the latter. An EIC and notification can take up to 30 days to come through. I think it would be best to make contact with the installer enquiring about the EIC & notification to the LBC. In terms of what was paid, did your mother receive a quotation/estimate for the work? Did it state anything about certification or notification. Certification is required on completion of the work, but notification can be the responsibility of the householder.

 

[Octopus]

Elecsa......whom I with, say I would be a very naughty boy to do such a thing......and of course I don't.

They can stick sick stupid rules. If I get the sniff that the client may be a difficult payer I state on the invoice that the cert etc will be provided on receipt of payment

 

[uksparks]

I don't think I have ever charged anyone more than £400 to move and change a board even with 10 circuits, my usual price is £325 - £360 depending on a few factors etc and also if bonding is need, thats extra dependent on where it is located.

I have always gone on the basis that if I charge more than £250 labor for a day im going to look expensive and charging too much, I always give a full itemized invoice so I cant exactly say the board was £200.

 

[joeldrummer79]

So if the gentleman's mum has had a board replaced and the installer will not provide a certificate, cannot provide a certificate for whatever reason, what should she do? Can she get somebody else to test and issue a certificate?

 

[Midwest]

Perhaps we should wait for the OP to come back on the questions asked, albeit a bit expensive, the installer may well be providing the necessary documentation.

 

[uksparks]

Just speaking out loud here hypothetically, just suppose the person who did the board change did not and will not issue any paper work or certificate.

Who can actually do anything about it anyway? If they are not registered with a scheme they cant do anything, and there is as far as I am aware no law or any one who could actually enforce is anyway is there?

 

[Midwest]

Suppose it would hinge possibly on what was said in the quotation or contract between the parties. If nothing was mentioned or agreed then the IP would have to consider their options. They could go to small claims and argue that BS7671 says an EIC should be completed and given to the person ordering the work. Perhaps the OP will report back.

 

[DuaneMHunt1976]

on regards on not giving as EIC till payment been made, you can still Reg the work.
And just hold off handing over the EIC till payment has been given.

Other wise you could do, course and not pay unless you pass.

 

[Guest77]

Question is= has she paid the bill? if that was mentioned and I missed it then I apologise, surely handing over the certificate when you pop around to get the cheque isn't a problem? I used to print my certs through the sofware system, it could be a few days before I get around to it, the testing is done on a blue tooth machine so legally it is tested, just awaiiting paper work, no big deal really.

 

[Midwest]

She's paid already.

 

[Farmelectrics]

have you contacted the electrician yet

 

[Midwest]

We are all waiting for bated breath on that!

 

[Trimglafix]

Many apologies for the delay. Thank you all very much for your comments.
I passed the details on to my mother & gave her the option of me calling & unnerving him with the facts, or her calling him & politely requesting a certificate; she chose the latter option. In reply she was told he hadn't got round to doing it yet, but would get it done & put it in the post.
Of course I don't believe it will arrive, but I shall allow him a week to produce it before calling him up myself. I hope to have enough facts by then to at least make him realise he is no longer just dealing with an old, uninformed lady (forgive me mum!).
I now know the quote was given verbally, & the work done a few days after being quoted for. The only paperwork they have is the receipt from the card payment machine.
The exact prices were £600 for the consumer unit install plus £65 (previously I stated £75) for the extra socket & replacement light pendant. The job was started at approx 09:30 (as opposed to 09:00) & finished about 17:00 . I have not yet had chance to look in more detail at the work done but will report back when I do.
I will study all the comments left in more detail & will base my call on them (unless he provides the certificate of course; in which case the overcharging will just have to be accepted).
I will report back with an update & continue looking for more comments.
Thanks again.

 

[Midwest]

Does seem a tad expensive, however if you google the subject, some companies can charge more than a sole trader (labour charges). A new Amendment 3 metal CU, can cost up to £125 (very few are available in an equivalent plastic fully populated, at the moment i.e. Schneider Easy 9), meter tails, fixings/trunking etc. You could be charged £170, materials. Labour charges could be £250, some larger companies may charge more, so that = £420. If you do get you certificate, some companies may not factor that into the labour hours for the days work. There was no mention in your post, as to whether the protective bonding to the gas/water etc needed upgrading, that could cost up to £160, depending on where they were connected to. So that comes out at £580. The prices for the other work, is similar priced. Let us know if the certificate turns up.

 

[gnselectricals]

Yeah it seems expensive and I would always do a written quote with everything needed after a site survey. But it's a free market and a quote was given and accepted. Perhaps the OP should have been involved at the quote stage and maybe gotten 3 quotes like for like

 

[Octopus]

It could be a metal clad CU with RCBO's - which would be more expensive.

Maybe the OP could post a picky

 

[Richard Burns]

Do remember that in the last resort if there was a verbal quote and no paper providing information about your right to cancel then you can cancel the contract within 12 months at no cost to you.
If the cancellation information is provided then you have 14 days to cancel.
Cancellation of the contract means that it is as if no service had been provided and all payments made must be returned in full.
(consumer contracts regulations 2013)

 

[marc8]

Hi All
banding around a lot of figures on here from £250 upwards for the labour for the day 9am - 5pm approx, lets not forget he probably went round to quote lets say 1-2 hours, travel anyone know how far this guy lived from the job lets say lived 30 minutes away max ( 2 hours for both trips) now no certificate on the day Maybe ran out of time if he did the testing (IF), so more work at home lets say another Hour, registration £3.00.
might be sole trader might be a company who knows.
lets say he did not do a 5 day course to be a sparks.
3 years college probably day release who knows
probably belongs to a scam provider
probably 17th edition
might even done inspection & testing
might even have AM2
may have a van, insurance, advertising costs, accountant bookkeeper ECT,
insurances ECT
Knowledge Gained through work we hope.

so in reality 1.5 -2 days work in total give or take £250 Labour
£125 per day before Taxes & any overheads

Now lets look back £600 with board included Metal clad / insulated ?

forget the socket & the light £65.00 extra works ( if i finished in time probably not charged Goodwill)

when pricing everybody goes wow expensive but if you break it down & charged £250 labour you may as well be do something else or go broke doing it, Consumer unit change specialist work you take full responsibility for the work you have a signed document saying you did it & registered it.
this is all hypothetically speaking as we don't know whether or not he did do the job correctly. if he didn't he earn't well if he did it properly & has all the above did he earn well?

 

[Midwest]

marc8 get your point, and that was what I was suggesting. Thing is we don't exactly know what was done, except the CU was replaced. So we are all speculating. But your right, there are other costs involved, other than just the days work.

 

[Trimglafix]

From memory it was a Schneider 9 that looked like this....
Schneider Electric Easy 9 Consumer Unit EZ9S2R5R5DRE with 8 MCBs | RS Electrical Supplies

I will visit as soon as I can & get more details on the installation.

Man & wife business as far as I can ascertain; I don't wish to name them until it is conclusive that they have committed an offence. Business (probably their home) address 6.6 miles from job site.

I wish I was there when quoted! Last year when I was on holiday they signed up for way overpriced solar panels which I just managed to get them out of within the cooling off period (with help from this forum). This year I was too late! I thought they had learned from what happened last year but clearly not. I think I need to get onto some retirement forums too to help understand why this happens. I think they are just of the trusting generation and too easily conned.

Richard, your mention of "consumer contracts regulations 2013" is completely new to me & I will look into it. Thank you.

I accept that there are many other costs to running a business but they don't all need to be charged to one customer!

 

[marc8]

From memory it was a Schneider 9 that looked like this....
Schneider Electric Easy 9 Consumer Unit EZ9S2R5R5DRE with 8 MCBs | RS Electrical Supplies

I will visit as soon as I can & get more details on the installation.

Man & wife business as far as I can ascertain; I don't wish to name them until it is conclusive that they have committed an offence. Business (probably their home) address 6.6 miles from job site.

I wish I was there when quoted! Last year when I was on holiday they signed up for way overpriced solar panels which I just managed to get them out of within the cooling off period (with help from this forum). This year I was too late! I thought they had learned from what happened last year but clearly not. I think I need to get onto some retirement forums too to help understand why this happens. I think they are just of the trusting generation and too easily conned.

Richard, your mention of "consumer contracts regulations 2013" is completely new to me & I will look into it. Thank you.

I accept that there are many other costs to running a business but they don't all need to be charged to one customer!

fair point but i would say apart from the socket & light fitting, with paperwork it's not far off being right cost. as for the solar if they placed the order & was delivered to site & they did not wait 14 days until fitted without a letter of consent then it can be removed as they are in breach.

 

[Spoon]

Do remember that in the last resort if there was a verbal quote and no paper providing information about your right to cancel then you can cancel the contract within 12 months at no cost to you.
If the cancellation information is provided then you have 14 days to cancel.
Cancellation of the contract means that it is as if no service had been provided and all payments made must be returned in full.
(consumer contracts regulations 2013)

I will have to look into this. It sounds like you could make someone's life hard. So if you give someone a verbal quote then you do the work for them, 7 months down the line they can cancel the contract and you have to give them the money back?

 

[Midwest]

The act relates to the distance selling of services and products, i.e. items not purchased in a shop or store, or off premises. It allows for the cancelling of a contract within 14 days of placing an order or returning the product or service. With a service you would be only refunded that of which you had not used (e.g. gym membership) (cited; Which Consumer Contracts explained). Not sure where the 12 months comes in, but I may be wrong.

 

[Richard Burns]

If you provide details of the cancellation rights in writing and the customer accepts the quote and then works starts 14 days later then they cannot cancel the contract
Similarly if you provide the cancellation rights information and the customer asks you to start work tomorrow then they must also accept that they can cancel within the next 14 days but they will be responsible for the costs incurred up to the point of cancellation.

If you do not provide the cancellation rights information on a durable medium then the cancellation rights extend to 12 months.

 

[Midwest]

It does say, that where services have been fully performed, i.e. completed, they are exempt from cancellation rights?

 

[Midwest]

If you do not provide the cancellation rights information on a durable medium then the cancellation rights extend to 12 months.

Flipping heck, 12 months AND 14 days apparently.

 

[Richard Burns]

It is there to stop cowboys similar to the OP's description!

 

[Midwest]

It does say, that where services have been fully performed, i.e. completed, they are exempt from cancellation rights?

But the installer has completed his work, as long as he supplies the cert?

 

[marc8]

Hi Midwest

way it was explained to me was that panels were required to be on-site for 14 days before being fitted, should they be fitted before that point then the client can ask for them to be removed, should you inform the customer & ask them to write a letter to say that they wanted the panels fitted before that time then you are in the clear.
mind you did come from the scam muggers, if procedure is not followed then apparently you leave yourself open to these sort of actions. not sure if it would ever come to it as when these things come to light nothing ever happens when you read what goes on in this forum

 

[Midwest]

The regulations (CRR 013) apply to product and services. Products are fairly easy to understand with regards 14 days grace, services are more complicated. In this case, the installer has provided both. In the case of services, i.e. installing the CU, the CCR state that once the service has been completed, 14 days grace does not apply (as far as I can see). But if the customer hasn't been informed of their rights under CRR, they have 12mths & 14 days. Time to update T&C's!