Old original period light switches , condition report.

[Guest569]

Doing an CR on a very old period property with some very expensive original features. It has been rewired around 10 years ago but they have reused the old original switches, some of which I believe to me 70-80 years old!

A few of the switches are clearly arcing when moved so C1 noted.

What about the others that are (or appear to be) functioning ok?

These switches are pretty special but Im not prepared to put them as acceptable. A basic toggle switch won't cut it in terms of replacing them so bespoke switches likely to cost a few bob.

Replacing them is going to be a real mess/expense.

Thoughts?

Im inclined to have them down as C2.

 

[Plonker 3]

Why a c1 when they are arcing? Can you see the ARC when you operate the switch?

Do you have any pictures of the exisitng switches so we can see what they are?

 

[DPG]

He's asking about the ones that aren't arcing though. I still reckon the contact resistance is going to be high. Daz

 

[Flanders]

Remember code 1 means danger to life or property if they are arching bad and showing signs of burning within the switch then i would say you are right with the code 1 but as for the others if they are working fine and all your testing checks out then I can't see a reason to code the others maybe put a note on the report though

 

[Geordie Spark]

Arcing ?? ..... I think you need to ask Tony what and arc is.

What you have is just a little spark

 

[Guest55]

all switches arc to some extend its just on older units its more visable

and youve given it a C1 aka danger of death ????

christ almighty , epic fail im afraid

 

[telectrix]

a code C5 is appropriate here. ( C5 = a squirt of switch cleaner, not an electric trike ).

 

[Guest569]

I did not do the test , however my guy has stated when operating the switches they are crackling. Id say thats pretty dangerous...

Anyway, its the ones that appear ok Im concerned with...Should I really be saying an 70-100 year old switch is safe ?

Would appreciate if we could stay on topic with this post for a change ?

 

[Guest569]

Why a c1 when they are arcing? Can you see the ARC when you operate the switch?

Do you have any pictures of the exisitng switches so we can see what they are?

Don't have pics at moment, They are pretty special. The lounge has a 5G switch plate about the size of an A4 Sheet.

 

[Guest55]

ok then , do the job properly and remove each switch and inspect them closely , followed by an insulation resistance test between the live parts and the casing.
at least you can then make an informed assessment on their condition before waving C1's around.

 

[Plonker 3]

I did not do the test , however my guy has stated when operating the switches they are crackling. Id say thats pretty dangerous...

Anyway, its the ones that appear ok Im concerned with...Should I really be saying an 70-100 year old switch is safe ?

Would appreciate if we could stay on topic with this post for a change ?

Of course you can say a light switch is still in condition. Just because its old doesn't mean its defective. What was the resistance of the contacts of the switch in the closed position?

 

[Guest569]

ok then , do the job properly and remove each switch and inspect them closely , followed by an insulation resistance test between the live parts and the casing.
at least you can then make an informed assessment on their condition before waving C1's around.

Please read the post again, The switches that are crackling ARE C1. The ones that I'm not sure about would be a C3 at worst, so Im not "waving C1s around"

Please read thoroughly....

Seems folk are more interested in slating my posts than trying to help!

 

[micknew]

Older model switches tend to arc if not operated positively.
If they're switching inductive loads the arc is greater.

 

[Guest569]

Of course you can say a light switch is still in condition. Just because its old doesn't mean its defective. What was the resistance of the contacts of the switch in the closed position?

Yes, it could be fine at the time of testing but due to its age its far more likely to fail in the near future Id say. Would you reuse these switches in a rewire and issue an installation certificate based on good resistance readings at the 100 year old switches?

Lets say something goes on fire and you were the last guy to pass these 100 year old switches as "safe"? Id rather cover my --- and issue a C3.

 

[telectrix]

geordie's nearly 100 and still functional. what's the problem?

 

[micknew]

Yes, it could be fine at the time of testing but due to its age its far more likely to fail in the near future Id say. Would you reuse these switches in a rewire and issue an installation certificate based on good resistance readings at the 100 year old switches?

Yes, but they're not new so you cannot guarantee them.

 

[Geordie Spark]

Yes, it could be fine at the time of testing but due to its age its far more likely to fail in the near future Id say. Would you reuse these switches in a rewire and issue an installation certificate based on good resistance readings at the 100 year old switches?

The MOT Inspector will issue your car / van with a satisfactory MOT Certificate IF the vehicle tested satisfactory at the time of the test.

If the wheel fell of next week would that be his fault?

Would he be in some way be to blame or be liable for that?

It is what it is at the time of the test.

 

[Plonker 3]

Yes, it could be fine at the time of testing but due to its age its far more likely to fail in the near future Id say. Would you reuse these switches in a rewire and issue an installation certificate based on good resistance readings at the 100 year old switches?

Lets say something goes on fire and you were the last guy to pass these 100 year old switches as "safe"? Id rather cover my --- and issue a C3.

With that mentallity, every item on a EICR would be a C3 minimum by default.

 

[Guest569]

The MOT Inspector will issue your car / van with a satisfactory MOT Certificate IF the vehicle tested satisfactory at the time of the test.

If the wheel fell of next week would that be his fault?

Would he be in some way be to blame or be liable for that?

It is what it is at the time of the test.

Agreed, but the customer is asking me to then produce a "satisfactory" report following remedial works and upgrades where necessary. So its not a case of doing the report and buggering off.

 

[Guest569]

With that mentallity, every item on a EICR would be a C3 minimum by default.

I think that mentality is called covering your arse. The courts would come hammering down on you if anything goes wrong, so why take the chance?

 

[Plonker 3]

Its your call, but EICRs are also about common sense and well as electrical safety.

 

[Guest55]

i really dont see the point in starting a thread asking for advice , then completely ignoring it cos no-one agrees with your intial assessment.

just a waste of everyones time in contributing.

 

[Geordie Spark]

Agreed, but the customer is asking me to then produce a "satisfactory" report following remedial works and upgrades where necessary. So its not a case of doing the report and buggering off.

IF it's "satisfactory" when you tested it then issue a "satisfactory" report !!!

You can buy and fit a brand new switch today and issue a "satisfactory" report on it and that same switch can still fail next week - and it DOES happen !!!

Where does that leave you and your "satisfactory" report??

It's the same with the light in the netty.

Yesterday you switched it on and you could see clearly enough to get most of the pee into the pot, but today when you switched it on it didn't work and you peed on the floor.

That is because yesterday the bulb performed to specification and the little bit of wire inside glowed with great incandescence worthy of earning a satisfactory report, but that was yesterday. How the hell could you know then that you were going to pi$$ in your shoes today ??

It is what it is at the time and that all there is!!

 

[Guest569]

i really dont see the point in starting a thread asking for advice , then completely ignoring it cos no-one agrees with your intial assessment.

just a waste of everyones time in contributing.

Your first post was hardly "advice"?

 

[Geordie Spark]

Your first post was hardly "advice"?

Eric Clapton - Knock on Wood - YouTube

 

[Guest569]

Anyway, Ive took all the "advice" issued. Thanks.

Im off to quote on replacing 17 period lightswitches ;p

 

[Geordie Spark]

Yes, it could be fine at the time of testing but due to its age its far more likely to fail in the near future Id say. Would you reuse these switches in a rewire and issue an installation certificate based on good resistance readings at the 100 year old switches?

Lets say something goes on fire and you were the last guy to pass these 100 year old switches as "safe"? Id rather cover my --- and issue a C3.

Then why don't you go and do just that and stop faffing about wasting everybody's time??

You ask for "advice" and when you get it you reject it and go your own sweet way anyway so why are you bothering asking in the first place??

 

[Guest55]

Your first post was hardly "advice"?

no , but my second post was constructive yet you ignored that anyway.

 

[jaypp]

came across 'bakerlite' toggles recently, some appeared brand new and all were deemed ok. loose connections could also cause 'arc'. had modern switch that 'lit up' when operated. old might not mean unsafe.

think i've still got pics (of toggles), will try to add later

what was more concerning than toggles was a 'cotton' type material lamp shade' hung directly on an incandescent lamp in a 2yr olds bedroom. this was sorted immediately and i didn't care if 'okayed' by gaffer or not!

 

[Guest569]

Then why don't you go and do just that and stop faffing about wasting everybody's time??

You ask for "advice" and when you get it you reject it and go your own sweet way anyway so why are you bothering asking in the first place??

To hear you ranting on?

 

[Geordie Spark]

Anyway, Ive took all the "advice" issued. Thanks.

Im off to quote on replacing 17 period lightswitches ;p

Good lad.

Take your time with it.

 

[Guest569]

came across 'bakerlite' toggles recently, some appeared brand new and all were deemed ok. loose connections could also cause 'arc'. had modern switch that 'lit up' when operated. old might not mean unsafe.

See the difference in this post ? This is genuine advice minus the smart arse comments...Thanks Jaypp.

 

[Geordie Spark]

To hear you ranting on?

FINALLY you admit to being a troll.

 

[Guest569]

Good lad.

Take your time with it.

Should I quote for 2 new RCD boards as the current 2 are non RCD ?

Cause I have !....I should say the customer has asked for me to "upgrade where possible"

- - - Updated - - -

FINALLY you admit to being a troll.

lol defo not a troll, just don't appreciate the smart arse comments.

 

[jaypp]

I should say the customer has asked for me to "upgrade where possible"

rewire!!

 

[Guest569]

rewire!!

lol, it was old colours ?? rewire.

 

[Geordie Spark]

Should I quote for 2 new RCD boards as the current 2 are non RCD ?

Cause I have !....I should say the customer has asked for me to "upgrade where possible"

- - - Updated - - -



lol defo not a troll, just don't appreciate the smart arse comments.

Then it's a good thing you didn't get any.

The advice you were given was sound albeit wrapped in a bit of gentle humour.

Suck it up or move on.

 

[Aindowsimon]

Are these the old switches where the covers are screwd on by Hand old Bakelite small round thingys ?
, if so that's an issue as potential access to live part without the use of a tool . I would code that as a 2 me thinks .
Funnily enough I'm doing a job in a old hospital witch is now a museum were I am using the old( looking ) bespoke switches on wooden backing fancy

 

[Aindowsimon]

one of these ??
I always keep them when I come across them , don't know why ???

 

[Guest55]

, if so that's an issue as potential access to live part without the use of a tool . I would code that as a 2 me thinks .

by your (demented ) reasoning every lampholder ever built is a C2 then ?

ffs , i give up.

 

[Geordie Spark]

Are these the old switches where the covers are screwd on by Hand old Bakelite small round thingys ?
, if so that's an issue as potential access to live part without the use of a tool . I would code that as a 2 me thinks .
Funnily enough I'm doing a job in a old hospital witch is now a museum were I am using the old( looking ) bespoke switches on wooden backing fancy

My Mum's house had those switches until I rewired it an I can assure you that they DID need a tool to access the live parts.

The tool I used was a hammer because there were so many coats of paint on them it was impossible to screw to covers off them without smashing them !!!

 

[Aindowsimon]

Ha when I think an electrical accessory may be open'd by hand by absolutely anyone like a child or anyone . If a lamp holder is accessible to a child via bunk bed I've changed them before I think someone is at risk as with these switches accessible live part without tool . And with lamp holder I consider the use of a ladder to access a tool only an opinion witch I have . You give up ohhh I'm gutted il miss you

 

[jaypp]

modern ones, place rewired about 10yrs ago, split load boards

 

[Geordie Spark]

Ha when I think an electrical accessory may be open'd by hand by absolutely anyone like a child or anyone . If a lamp holder is accessible to a child via bunk bed I've changed them before I think someone is at risk as with these switches accessible live part without tool . And with lamp holder I consider the use of a ladder to access a tool only an opinion witch I have . You give up ohhh I'm gutted il miss you

My cousin when he was a small child circa 1955 got out of bed during the night to go to the toilet - as you do.

He switched the light on and nothing happened because his mother had nicked the bulb (lamp??) to replace one that had popped, so he climbed onto the toilet seat and stuck his thumb into the bulb holder.

He's going on for 70 now and still has the 2 scars on his thumb.

Had he been holding onto the water pipe (high level cistern - chain pull job) with his other hand he would certainly have been dead.

 

[MDJ]

Are these the old switches where the covers are screwd on by Hand old Bakelite small round thingys ?
, if so that's an issue as potential access to live part without the use of a tool . I would code that as a 2 me thinks .
Funnily enough I'm doing a job in a old hospital witch is now a museum were I am using the old( looking ) bespoke switches on wooden backing fancy

A code 2 Really?

 

[jaypp]

My cousin when he was a small child circa 1955 got out of bed during the night to go to the toilet - as you do.

He switched the light on and nothing happened because his mother had nicked the bulb (lamp??) to replace one that had popped, so he climbed onto the toilet seat and stuck his thumb into the bulb holder.

He's going on for 70 now and still has the 2 scars on his thumb.

Had he been holding onto the water pipe (high level cistern - chain pull job) with his other hand he would certainly have been dead.

joking aside that was lucky and also cos they had a toilet indoors! posh area eh?!

 

[MDJ]

Ha when I think an electrical accessory may be open'd by hand by absolutely anyone like a child or anyone . If a lamp holder is accessible to a child via bunk bed I've changed them before I think someone is at risk as with these switches accessible live part without tool . And with lamp holder I consider the use of a ladder to access a tool only an opinion witch I have . You give up ohhh I'm gutted il miss you

never mind, plenty more sheep on the mountain

 

[gnuuser]

one of these ??
I always keep them when I come across them , don't know why ???

i had one made of porcelain in my display case until someone binned it

anyway i would be concerned with its resistance when closed. and the condition of the contacts
at that age heat could have caused some weakness in the contacts.
its all well and good that a customer wants to preserve vintage equipment but safety is the primary concern here.
if you issue a report state the facts and make the customer sign a waiver absolving you of responsibility.
cover your arse

 

[Geordie Spark]

joking aside that was lucky and also cos they had toilet indoors!

I know!!

Very surprising that they had an inside netty considering that this house was in Nenthead (near Alston)

They had no gas and I'm not sure if they have yet and only had electricity courtesy of a lead processing plant in the village that was supplied from the grid.

 

[iamelectric]

c2 and where it says is further investigation required , write yes