Part P , DIYers and confusion

[pageste]

First things first so we can get the abuse out of the way, I am one of them horrible DIY people. The only thing I have in my defence is 2 years at college doing C&G Installation and an " interest " in electrics. I bottled doing it for a living as it seemed like hard work to me, I did back in the day rewire my own houses and as was the done thing got a sparks to oversee/check them for me. Am I right in saying that now the whole certification and qualification issue is in a complete mess ? I say that as my 80 year old mum has been instructed by the council to have her flat checked ( she owns it ) in advance of replacement of the service cables into the flats. She requested several locals to give her quotes for the work and any rectification required. First off only half bothered to return her calls, and on closer inspection some of them should not have been offering to do the work. As I had already suggested to her she needed someone with the relevant registrations one of the sparks said she didnt need any paperwork as he had a contact in the council ??? One chap showed her a gas safe card ??? of the other two one quoted an eye watering amount for what I percieved to be 1/2 to a whole days work depending on results. Luckily the last guy was not only registered he actualy turned up when he said he would. His testing seems thorough and he did recommend a CU change which was probably overdue, he ended up spending a day and a half on site but to a DIYers eye his work was very tidy and the test pack he left was complete with dates amount charged and recommendations. My point is are we suprised that many people are tempted to do their own when its such a minefield to find someone you can trust. Most people have NO idea what Part P is, as some of you have eluded to it just seems to be a money spinner for councils and Electrical Orginisations and must be galling for the majority of honest qualified sparks when there are still so many cowboys about. I know my limitations and have no problem paying for someone more qualifled to give advice its just finding them seems to be the issue.

 

[Pete999]

Did he just change the CU and why

 

[Engineer54]

First things first so we can get the abuse out of the way, I am one of them horrible DIY people. The only thing I have in my defence is 2 years at college doing C&G Installation and an " interest " in electrics. I bottled doing it for a living as it seemed like hard work to me, I did back in the day rewire my own houses and as was the done thing got a sparks to oversee/check them for me. Am I right in saying that now the whole certification and qualification issue is in a complete mess ? I say that as my 80 year old mum has been instructed by the council to have her flat checked ( she owns it ) in advance of replacement of the service cables into the flats. She requested several locals to give her quotes for the work and any rectification required. First off only half bothered to return her calls, and on closer inspection some of them should not have been offering to do the work. As I had already suggested to her she needed someone with the relevant registrations one of the sparks said she didnt need any paperwork as he had a contact in the council ??? One chap showed her a gas safe card ??? of the other two one quoted an eye watering amount for what I percieved to be 1/2 to a whole days work depending on results. Luckily the last guy was not only registered he actualy turned up when he said he would. His testing seems thorough and he did recommend a CU change which was probably overdue, he ended up spending a day and a half on site but to a DIYers eye his work was very tidy and the test pack he left was complete with dates amount charged and recommendations. My point is are we suprised that many people are tempted to do their own when its such a minefield to find someone you can trust. Most people have NO idea what Part P is, as some of you have eluded to it just seems to be a money spinner for councils and Electrical Orginisations and must be galling for the majority of honest qualified sparks when there are still so many cowboys about. I know my limitations and have no problem paying for someone more qualifled to give advice its just finding them seems to be the issue.

Your recent observations and experiences are the very reason WHY the industry needs a Registry of Qualified Electricians. As you have found, being a member of a Part P provider is no guarantee whatsoever of that person being a qualified electrician, in fact far from it. You could quite easily find that the person coming round to your property was stacking shelves at Tesco/ASDA just a few weeks previously...

 

[andyelectric]

Your recent observations and experiences are the very reason WHY the industry needs a Registry of Qualified Electricians. As you have found, being a member of a Part P provider is no guarantee whatsoever of that person being a qualified electrician, in fact far from it. You could quite easily find that the person coming round to your property was stacking shelves at Tesco/ASDA just a few weeks previously...

A register may stop many things but it will not stop charlatans.

Gas safe is full of scammers recommending boiler changes (no spares mate, boiler's too old) when a spare costing a tenner could be fitted.

 

[Engineer54]

A register may stop many things but it will not stop charlatans.

It may well stop an ex weapons technician going into people's homes masquerading as an electrician!!

If that Register is given Teeth, it will indeed stop the charlatans, wannabes and chancers operating and trading as electricians...

 

[pageste]

Did he just change the CU and why

Agh, there is where a little knowledge is a dangerous thing . Other than it being probably 40 years old it was a push button reset jobbie in metal casing which enclosed the service cable and earth arrangements so to be honest I dont know how it was configured before. I can now see he has done bonding to I/c supplies and RCD protection is there so I assume part of a general upgrade. I suppose when an install gets to a certain age do you wait until you have issues or do some sensible work. I have to admit reading the test results made me realise if its done properly there is some work there. Of course that could all be made up ? I have no reason to suspect his motives and as the install looks well done I kind of assume its now safer than it was. I know roughly what the material costs would be for this so it would be fair to say he earned from it. The point is I might have been tempted to do it at one time but with leccie and gas its not just your life your gambling with is it. Like the chap who asked me if I had any second hand car seat belts ??????? NO , they are £30 new why would you .

 

[andyelectric]

It may well stop an ex weapons technician going into people's homes masquerading as an electrician!!

If that Register is given Teeth, it will indeed stop the charlatans, wannabes and chancers operating and trading as electricians...

Sorry but as stated, the gas safe register has not stopped charlatans and neither would an electrical register.

Just being fully qualified does not prevent you from being a conman. Innappropriate rewires could become the equivalent of innappropriate boiler changes for example.

 

[Engineer54]

Sorry but as stated, the gas safe register has not stopped charlatans and neither would an electrical register.

Just being fully qualified does not prevent you from being a conman. Innappropriate rewires could become the equivalent of innappropriate boiler changes for example.

You are unreal matey!! What you are describing has been about since the beginning of time, for just about every trade andor any services provider!! The only way of getting a truthful assessment/quotation etc is the age old method of having 3 or more people to give assessment and/or quotation.

 

[pageste]

You are unreal matey!! What you are describing has been about since the beginning of time, for just about every trade andor any services provider!! The only way of getting a truthful assessment/quotation etc is the age old method of having 3 or more people to give assessment and/or quotation.

So for Jo Public like myself other than personal recommendation , what is the best thing to look for Niceic ? should we be asking to see qualifications ? None of which guarantees a good job but at least there might be some comeback if it wasnt.

 

[andyelectric]

You are unreal matey!! What you are describing has been about since the beginning of time, for just about every trade andor any services provider!! The only way of getting a truthful assessment/quotation etc is the age old method of having 3 or more people to give assessment and/or quotation.

Why am I unreal. I was only stating fact.

You said "a register will indeed stop the charlatans". You appear to have changed your mind and now think it won't so the best thing to do is get 3 quotes.

I am glad you now agree with me.!

 

[BES]

Bit confused about this thread. Can the OP explain I read it as the electrician who did the work did an EICR if so was the installation deemed satisfactory and if so why the CU change ? and as this is notifiable work has the LABC been informed.

 

[pageste]

Bit confused about this thread. Can the OP explain I read it as the electrician who did the work did an EICR if so was the installation deemed satisfactory and if so why the CU change ? and as this is notifiable work has the LABC been informed.

I think youve answered my I must admit very general point. An 80 YO lady is asked to get her electrics checked and to supply the council with copies of the certificates. She gets an Niceic registered bloke to do the needy and he recommends changing her CU which she has done. You are saying its an Eicr ? has the LABC been informed ? How on earth ( no pun) would she know what this was all about . As far as we know all the fancy paperwork supplied is enough and chappie has updated her install to a good standard. hopefully he hasnt made it all up and used his brothers registration. Minefield.
Chances are I could have printed off some generric certs and the council would never have checked ?

 

[trev]

Mate, how would you know if the doctor who replaced her hip has done a good job or not? How do you know if the mechanic who replaced the brake pads on your car has done a good job? When you invite me into your home to price a job up how do you know I'm not a serial killer?

 

[telectrix]

Mate, how would you know if the doctor who replaced her hip has done a good job or not? How do you know if the mechanic who replaced the brake pads on your car has done a good job? When you invite me into your home to price a job up how do you know I'm not a serial killer?

careful trev. your secret identity might come out. :ack2: :49:

 

[BES]

Bit confused about this thread. Can the OP explain I read it as the electrician who did the work did an EICR if so was the installation deemed satisfactory and if so why the CU change ? and as this is notifiable work has the LABC been informed.

I think youve answered my I must admit very general point. An 80 YO lady is asked to get her electrics checked and to supply the council with copies of the certificates. She gets an Niceic registered bloke to do the needy and he recommends changing her CU which she has done. You are saying its an Eicr ? has the LABC been informed ? How on earth ( no pun) would she know what this was all about . As far as we know all the fancy paperwork supplied is enough and chappie has updated her install to a good standard. hopefully he hasnt made it all up and used his brothers registration. Minefield.
Chances are I could have printed off some generric certs and the council would never have checked ?

You lucky the LABC will except his certs with out charging you to come out and check it themselves. Have they issued you with a BC cert to say the work has been notified. Did you say the LA told her to get her electrics checked thought it was a privatly owned flat ?

 

[thekingiam]

Hmm ime of the opinion that a lot of people that ask me for eicr only do so when the poohas hit the fan and have been told to get one not that this is the case. Every property in the country has to have its electrics checked at least every ten years and every one I have completed the customer looks at me in disbelief at the price and again if there are any problems. I have lost many jobs when I have told customers that the cost does not include a gaurantee that it will pass. And local firms are asking between £50 and £150 for the certificates.I was charging £120 before realising that I was being under cut every time so I lowered it.
I fix any small problems if located while under test and offer the customer a quote for any remedial work I tell the customer they can get any qualified and registered electrician to do the remedial work and I will release a satisfactory report free of charge if completed by a registered spark after inspection by me.

 

[telectrix]

Hmm ime of the opinion that a lot of people that ask me for eicr only do so when the poohas hit the fan and have been told to get one not that this is the case. Every property in the country has to have its electrics checked at least every ten years ( that's only a recommendation by IET. it's not mandatory ). and every one I have completed the customer looks at me in disbelief at the price and again if there are any problems. I have lost many jobs when I have told customers that the cost does not include a gaurantee that it will pass. And local firms are asking between £50 and £150 for the certificates.I was charging £120 before realising that I was being under cut every time so I lowered it. ( so you're going down the cut-price road, where you'll be tempted to cut corners. increase you price to something sensible and sell yourself on doing a thorough EICR properly. cheapest is not always the best.).........
I fix any small problems if located while under test and offer the customer a quote for any remedial work I tell the customer they can get any qualified and registered electrician to do the remedial work and I will release a satisfactory report free of charge if completed by a registered spark after inspection by me.

my comments in red.

 

[trev]

and I will release a satisfactory report free of charge if completed by a registered spark after inspection by me.

And what possible point is there to that?
You've done the EICR a someone else has done the remedials, it is up to the person doing this work to issue an EIC/MWC as appropriate. The 2 documents added together = a satisfactory report.

 

[thekingiam]

Cheers tel I use the eicr as a way through the door for future work I spend nearly a whole day testing and have no problem failing bad installations. If in the future work picks up so I am booked in every day then I would have to increase price as they are not cost effective, or insist on new consumer unit on every test. At the moment I use them to stock up on materials for work during the week and after they see how much work is involved I get recommended by customers for future work.

 

[baldsparkies]

So for Jo Public like myself other than personal recommendation , what is the best thing to look for Niceic ? should we be asking to see qualifications ? None of which guarantees a good job but at least there might be some comeback if it wasnt.

NICEIC or the like registration is an absolute bare minimum before they even get there foot in your door.
Check them on line to make sure there registered.
Genuine recommendations are always worth having, and if there any good that won't be a problem.
ASK to see there JIB gold card (approved electrician status would be my recommendation)
If nothing else it proves they have been in the trade long enough to get themselves properly recognised, and in my honest opinion the JIB are one of the most discerning when it comes to grading qualified electricians.
Go by your gut feeling. Most people can work out bull**** before the brain is baffled, and if they try to blind you with technicalities then suspect BS.
A good sparks knows your not an electrician and will take the time to explain things to you in good old fashion english.

 

[trev]

or insist on new consumer unit on every test.

And what are you going to base this insistence on?
So as of this month are you demanding that perfectly serviceable plastic CUs be ripped out and replaced because they don't comply with the new "non combustible" regulation?

 

[D Skelton]

Why am I unreal. I was only stating fact.

You said "a register will indeed stop the charlatans". You appear to have changed your mind and now think it won't so the best thing to do is get 3 quotes.

I am glad you now agree with me.!

A proper register, run not for profit, with real assessment methods, and teeth, will stop charlatans, no doubt about it! It won't stop conmen however. Nothing you ever do will stop someone from becoming a criminal if they want to be. You can however stop people being killed as a result of crap training and a reliance on chequebook competence.

It isn't up to the electrical industry to stop conmen, that is down to trading standards and the police. It is however up to the electrical industry to regulate who can and can't go into someone's home or place of work and carry out alterations to an electrical installation. It is up to the electrical industry to ensure that someone with only 17 days worth of training, regardless of their work experience before hand, cannot masquerade as an electrician and put lives in danger through lack of knowledge. Full stop.

You are unreal because you simply fail to see the danger someone like yourself would put members of the public in with such a limited amount of knowledge of electrical design, installation, initial verification and inspection and testing should you start trading as an electrician!

 

[rompling]

(null)

Where abouts in the country are you ?
£50 for an EICR you got to be kidding - how the hell do people make money ?

 

[thekingiam]

Hmm get your point trev, I have never had a customer not have me do remedials as yet.
Trying to get my head around this
I don't like the idea of giving a unsatisfactory report then quote for work the customer needs and the only option the customer has is to pay what ever I want or get another electrician in to redoo all tests.
If your saying a MWC and an unsatisfactory report is acceptable as a pass I didn't know ?

 

[thekingiam]

Newport s wales , I haven't got confirmation on the £50.00 just one customer I do know off a few some one is costing at £110.00

 

[TJ Anderson]

I don't like the idea of giving a unsatisfactory report then quote for work the customer needs and the only option the customer has is to pay what ever I want or get another electrician in to redoo all tests.
QUOTE]

Well get your head round it! They trusted you to carry out the EICR so they should trust you to be reasonable on the remedials. That is good business. Don't help a competitor, they won't help you. As soon as another electrician does there remedial works they will become his client.

 

[trev]

What possible other option is there?
There's nothing to get your head round. You do the report, you quote for remedials. You might get the job, you might not. If the customer wants a satisfactory report they pay someone for the work. It really is that simple.
Tell me, if you do an EICR and I get the remedials what makes you think you need to do another report? The customer has a bit of paper saying X is wrong, they then get another bit of paper saying "I've done this and it complies"
Your responsibility towards the customer and the install end with your EICR if you're not doing the remeds.

 

[trev]

you don't need to compete with a £50 EICR mate. You can't because for that £50 they're getting a guaranteed satisfactory report.
What you need to do is point out that yes you're more expensive BUT for that money Mr Homeowner or Mrs Office worker or Mrs Workshop owner is getting a proper inspection carried out by a properly qualified person and that the report will be factual and impartial.

 

[thekingiam]

May save me some ink trev, can it just be a headed letter.

 

[trev]

Can what be on a headed letter?
The eicr? It can be on gold tipped vellum made from the skins of unborn goats if you want it. It can be on used bog roll.
As long as the wording is correct but I'd advise downloading the official form and reproducing it on your own letterhead as you see fit mate

 

[thekingiam]

I meant the remedials

 

[TJ Anderson]

I meant the remedials

An Electrical Contractor would produce a detailed quotation on headed paper.

 

[trev]

I meant the remedials

Yes, if you want it to look reasonably professional do it on a bit of letterhead. At the very least it should be on an email from your website.

 

[HandySparks]

I meant the remedials

Normally an EIC or MWC for the remedial work plus an invoice would be sufficient.

 

[andyelectric]

Sorry but as stated, the gas safe register has not stopped charlatans and neither would an electrical register.

Just being fully qualified does not prevent you from being a conman. Innappropriate rewires could become the equivalent of innappropriate boiler changes for example.

Mr Skelton, just showing above that charlatan/conman was being used interchangeably.
And whilst your pedantry towards the English language is simply tiresome, your need to constantly attack me in posts is quite annoying. Particulary when I was not directly engaging yourself in dialogue.

 

[D Skelton]

Mr Skelton, just showing above that charlatan/conman was being used interchangeably.
And whilst your pedantry towards the English language is simply tiresome, your need to constantly attack me in posts is quite annoying. Particulary when I was not directly engaging yourself in dialogue.

Charlatan and conman are not interchangeable words, they mean entirely different things?!? This isn't pedantry towards the English language, it is correct usage of two different words!

Are you now to suggest that the words 'donkey' and 'elevator' are interchangeable??

Your existence on this forum is becoming tiresome, your incessant whining is tiresome, your never ending defence of the indefensible is becoming tiresome and seriously, your constant crying about being personally attacked is getting tiresome!

If I were to attack you, you would damn well know about it!

Are you starting to get the drift yet?!

 

[tazz]

Mr Skelton, just showing above that charlatan/conman was being used interchangeably.
And whilst your pedantry towards the English language is simply tiresome, your need to constantly attack me in posts is quite annoying. Particulary when I was not directly engaging yourself in dialogue.

Skelton, as yourself, is totally free to express his opinions, aslong as it complies to forum rules, abuse etc. Constructive ways to conduct ECIR`s has been posted by Trev and others. This type of post is valuable information to new members.

 

[andyelectric]

Charlatan and conman are not interchangeable words, they mean entirely different things?!? This isn't pedantry towards the English language, it is correct usage of two different words!

Are you now to suggest that the words 'donkey' and 'elevator' are interchangeable??

Your existence on this forum is becoming tiresome, your incessant whining is tiresome, your never ending defence of the indefensible is becoming tiresome and seriously, your constant crying about being personally attacked is getting tiresome!

If I were to attack you, you would damn well know about it!

Are you starting to get the drift yet?!

Yawn. You are indeed being tiresome. The two words were being used interchangeably, they are of similar meaning and anyway you have to take a word in context to get it's exact meaning.

What is defensible/indefensible is entirely subjective. I can understand that the current set-up with Competent Person Schemes is costing you money, but do you need to take all your troubles out on me just because I do not have a problem with them.

Just as you are allowed your opinion, I am allowed mine.

 

[D Skelton]

Yawn. You are indeed being tiresome.

"No, you are", "no, you are", you rabbit on like a five year old child!

The two words were being used interchangeably, they are of similar meaning and anyway you have to take a word in context to get it's exact meaning.

They are NOT of similar meaning and were not being used interchangeably. If you had a better grasp of the English language you would know this!

What is defensible/indefensible is entirely subjective. I can understand that the current set-up with Competent Person Schemes is costing you money, but you do need to take all your troubles out on me just because I do not have a problem with them.

No, it's not. Is theft defensible? Is criminal damage defensible? You're talking out of your rear end yet again! You also have not the faintest clue what you're talking about! The scam schemes cost me the sum total of diddly squat because I don't pay them as I'm not a member. I'm not troubled by you, you're just the court jester here, the thing is, your jokes are getting old now and you're beginning to do my swede in! I'm not alone in this! Trust me, behind closed doors, many members of this place are beginning to despair for this forum, and your membership is pretty much one of the major reasons why!

Just as you are allowed your opinion, I am allowed mine.

You are correct, you are allowed your opinion, that doesn't automatically make it valid though does it!

Now why don't you take the hint and go?! Your opinions are clearly not wanted here!

 

[trev]

Hear hear. Take your mate with you too.

 

[andyelectric]

Mr Skelton.
You are indeed correct. Just because someone has an opinion does not make it valid. That cuts both ways however.

I don't think I mentioned theft or criminal damage and don't see why you used it in your reply.

'Bottom line' wasn't referring to CPS membership fees. I am aware you are not a member of such. I was referring to a recent post of yours where you argued requirments for wholesale change to the system and 5 or 6 lines referred to Electrical Trainee lowering prices in the domestic market and only 1 line referenced public safety.

I am bound to be annoying to some members seeing as my stance on certain matters is in the minority, but as you have already stated opinions can be right or wrong. There is often a resistance to change, and when feelings are high this can persist.

If you personally find me annoying, then stop engaging with me, and I will do the same. I have no wish to converse with you but will attempt to defend myself from your continued attacks.

 

[D Skelton]

Mr Skelton.
You are indeed correct. Just because someone has an opinion does not make it valid. That cuts both ways however.

I don't think I mentioned theft or criminal damage and don't see why you used it in your reply.

'Bottom line' wasn't referring to CPS membership fees. I am aware you are not a member of such. I was referring to a recent post of yours where you argued requirments for wholesale change to the system and 5 or 6 lines referred to Electrical Trainee lowering prices in the domestic market and only 1 line referenced public safety.

I am bound to be annoying to some members seeing as my stance on certain matters is in the minority, but as you have already stated opinions can be right or wrong. There is often a resistance to change, and when feelings are high this can persist.

If you personally find me annoying, then stop engaging with me, and I will do the same. I have no wish to converse with you but will attempt to defend myself from your continued attacks.

Troll off numbnuts.

Welcome to my ignore list.

 

[andyelectric]

Troll off numbnuts.

Welcome to my ignore list.

Thank god for that if it means you leave me alone.

 

[Guest77]

Mr Skelton.
You are indeed correct. Just because someone has an opinion does not make it valid. That cuts both ways however.

I don't think I mentioned theft or criminal damage and don't see why you used it in your reply.

'Bottom line' wasn't referring to CPS membership fees. I am aware you are not a member of such. I was referring to a recent post of yours where you argued requirments for wholesale change to the system and 5 or 6 lines referred to Electrical Trainee lowering prices in the domestic market and only 1 line referenced public safety.

I am bound to be annoying to some members seeing as my stance on certain matters is in the minority, but as you have already stated opinions can be right or wrong. There is often a resistance to change, and when feelings are high this can persist.

If you personally find me annoying, then stop engaging with me, and I will do the same. I have no wish to converse with you but will attempt to defend myself from your continued attacks.

I haven't worked out what your stance is yet, it seems to change daily lol

 

[andyelectric]

MDJ, I think it's just my viewpoint that the schemes are here to stay that winds some up.

As to my thoughts on many matters, I am learning, discussing and debating, and naturally my viewpoint on certain matters will shift as I do this.