Petition: Make working with electricity a criminal offence unless qualified

[Dave OCD]

Sounds like that there are electricians here who feel threatened about others joining the industry. Almost reminds me of a closed society like the medical profession where people are handpicked because they know someone. People typically take apprenticeships because they either lack the ability to go to University, lack the experience or the competency to teach themselves.

If I have learned anything about the field so far is that it is concerned with safety more than anything else. So long as you choose the correct wiring, consider the environmental effects (like grouping), consider location, use the right conduits there is NO reason why someone like myself cannot become an electrician.

Fault finding? Thats funny because I have had plenty of fault finding experience, not just in wiring but in circuit boards as well.

A course like this is unsuitable for someone who has never looked at electricity and I agree that someone who has no previous knowledge should be able to go straight into industry. But for someone like me, this course is a great way to get into it considering the fact that I am already a proven engineer.

There are two ways that people here can respond to such courses:

A) Be a grumpy old man who sticks to the past and rejects the idea of someone taking a course
B) Accept the inevitable and do their best to assist such people to ensure that their practices are safe

If there are people here who genuinely think that someone like me is incapable because of this course (despite the fact that I have previous experience with electricity and electronics), then it just goes to show how little they know.

That is SO misguided and actually quite worrying. I'd say there are plenty of people who go to University who don't have the required intelligence and other essential attributes to become a good electrician. I know of several with meaningless degrees who are either unemployed or flipping burgers for example.
And if you really believe you can teach yourself everything without any mentoring from a decent and experienced tradesman you're clearly deluded ! No offence intended just my opinion.

 

[Adam W]

Here is a question for those who think that the petition should go through.

I have a degree in electronics, I have always been hands on (having a workshop with MANY tools including bandsaws, drill presses, woodworking bits, table saws etc etc...), and I am a very capable person. I am taking one of these so called "Short Courses", which clearly teaches all the theory behind domestic electrics. I have been fact checking the books to ensure that they are the real deal and have been very cautious. One of these books was written by the course for the sake of question asking and the latest book they sent me was Level 2 NVQ 2365.

The course also sent me the on site guide and the latest BS7671 (they are legit as they have the nice little hologram on the front page). Once I have done these few more modules I will start my practical training on-site so that they are sure I am able to do jobs to a good standard. (6 weeks in total).

Now if this petition where to go through I probably would not be able to start my own business so that I may work for myself. If I pass this course with flying colours then why should I not be able to install electrics? What makes me unqualified? Experience? What is experience? Just because I trained myself does not make me incapable. Or are you saying that it does?

Electricity is my life and has been since I was 12. I studied it at Warwick University and got a 2:1 in electronics which covered more theory than any electrician course can even touch. Three phase induction motors? Yup. High voltage switching? Yup (IGBJT), transformers and isolation? Yup.

I dont want to offend anyone here and I joined this forum so that I can learn from others. I also know that lately I have been making myself look like a bit of a fool (Wago Connectors and bathroom switches anyone ?), but electricity is in my blood.

So my question: With MY knowledge am I capable of doing electrics after this course I am taking?

I don't think the petition should go through, partly because there need to be more ways into the industry than working for your dad or uncle, but I also disagree with your opinion that a degree in electronics somehow automatically qualifies you to do anything you consider 'a step down' from what you were doing before.

I've worked with people who had backgrounds in electronics, computers, management etc and they were the worst - they thought they knew it all so wouldn't accept the benefit of anyone else's experience, instead throwing their weight around and demanding snappy answers as to how to do what should be the simplest tasks. I worked with one guy who kept going on about how he was on a 6 figure salary and could design complicated door entry systems and networked this that and the other; that's all good and well but he was being employed to wire light switches, which he didn't have a clue about.

There is a need to put a stop to people leaving a training centre after a short course in a classroom or on the internet, getting 'electrician' signwritten on a van after their name and go around passing them selves off as that onto the unsuspecting public, but the solution is not with knee-jerk reactions and appointing a body of jobsworths to create unnecessary hoops for everyone to jump through. I appreciate what the JIB are trying to do, but they are at best infuriating to deal with.

Think about driving a car - while it may be possible for someone who has never even sat in a real car to describe perfectly the theory behind driving it, maybe even be able to work a simulator, it would be dangerous to chuck them a car key and say "off you go". You need the practical experience in real world situations, and the way to gain that is under the supervision of someone more experienced.

 

[KennyKen]

Please the university spill... I've worked with Boil in the Bag sparks. Who have come from white collar professional background. Asking questions like what's an intermediate switch.

 

[sean_ork]

Please the university spill... I've worked with Boil in the Bag sparks. Who have come from white collar professional background. Asking questions like what's an intermediate switch.

Let's not be under the impression its just the 5WWs that seem not to know the basics :vanish:


http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...s/109076-3-way-lighting-circuit-question.html

 

[Martyc]

I've spent 3 years at college and there's a lot I wouldn't feel comfortable doing without reassurance, despite having been a maintenance manager, project managing property refurbishments and leading and managing teams of tradespeople from plumbers, plasterers, chippys and builders, being responsible for over £1m of turnover, yet that makes me no more of a tradesman.

Til you're there, on the tools doing it, all the theory in the world isn't going to help you (or me) and despite being in that boat myself, I understand why it's so hard to get into the trade properly. Who would want to pay someone who will cost the company time and money before they are actually earning it and their keep?

Or you could look at it like this, just because you know the theory behind holding a pencil, does that make you an artist?

 

[7029 dave]

That is SO misguided and actually quite worrying. I'd say there are plenty of people who go to University who don't have the required intelligence and other essential attributes to become a good electrician. I know of several with meaningless degrees who are either unemployed or flipping burgers for example.
And if you really believe you can teach yourself everything without any mentoring from a decent and experienced tradesman you're clearly deluded ! No offence intended just my opinion.

I just can't add anything to this Dave, you have summed it up.

 

[KennyKen]

Let's not be under the impression its just the 5WWs that seem not to know the basics :vanish:


http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...s/109076-3-way-lighting-circuit-question.html

Oh Dear!

 

[Dcf]

A criminal offence to work with electricity.no one could enforce that one tbh.
an end to short course "installers" would be more beneficial.
i get my brother to give me a hand now and again.
hes not a spark but is trained in comms,hv,Plc and motors and the like with his rov work
before that he was a coded welder doing power turbine refurbs so it's not like he has no crossover skills.
now ,I pay him the same rate that I pay another spark who sometimes helps me out.
is he as good ?....
no way
he is way too slow for electrical contracting work.its not his line of work that I know.
if I had my spark fitting something mundane like sockets the spark would have fitted 6 to my brothers 2
my spark is a 25 year + veteran of electrical contracting and is so meticulous and neat and tidy that I always introduce him as my towns no2 sparky to any of my customers who don't know him ,so you can't compare apples and oranges as the bar is set high.
but.....there s a massive difference between a proper all rounder and someone who has a bit of a clue but still needs a bit of schooling.
Oh aye who is no1 ......... Me of course!

 

[Alessandro]

What is Electrical Trainee?

 

[Darkwood]

What is Electrical Trainee?

Electrical Trainee is a derogative term for a short course, '5 week wonder', as a forum we don't like the term as it paints everyone with the same brush but it is aimed at the zero to hero sector who have no electrical knowledge or experience and 5 weeks later they are allowed to walk into someones house and wire it with no on site knowledge and only paper theory. These courses should only be aimed at those with electrical background but due to money hungry profit based training schemes they promise the world for thousands of pounds and leave the majority of those passing out of their depth and un-employable by establised companies.

 

[UNG]

My point is clear, and you've made it for me - you clearly deem yourself to be competent to carry out tasks which you hold no formal qualifications in, that's fair enough.

Your point isn't very clear at all and I haven't made it for you read the post again I got my experience working on vehicles under the supervision for many years of a qualified old school mechanic learning a lot of things they don't teach the vehicle technicians of today. There are a lot of electricians out there who started as mates and got made up to sparks with little or no theory or qualification behind them

Nigel Gresham also considered himself competent - I expect there have been lots of damage, injury and deaths due to folks assuming their own competence - the premise of the petition is flawed and simply not enforceable.

To use one of your favourites go away and do a bit more deeper research

This guy was an idiot and a bit deluded to use that as a defence, he had extensively "modified" that vehicle with many incompatible parts to the extent that it was probably easier to list what was right with it if there was anything than what was wrong with it, I read most of the reports on that incident at the time and what he had done was create a travelling incident waiting to happen

 

[sean_ork]

To use one of your favourites go away and do a bit more deeper research

This guy was an idiot and a bit deluded to use that as a defence, he had extensively "modified" that vehicle with many incompatible parts to the extent that it was probably easier to list what was right with it if there was anything than what was wrong with it, I read most of the reports on that incident at the time and what he had done was create a travelling incident waiting to happen

What else would additional reasearch reveal ? - yes he was an idiot, now the world knows that sad story we can all be judgemental with the benifit of hindsight.


But he considered himself to be competent, yet had no formal qualifications in an applicable subject. There may well be plenty of sparks who started as mates, knowing very little, they may now still be working and earning - but are you saying they'll not have had to formally proven their competence at some point ?


We probably won't know how many others will be proven not to be competent in the future untill some form of injurious incident occurs - that's just the way life is.

 

[Golden_Boy]

I think if wholesellers and diy shops werent allowed to sell to general public without showing proof you are a qualified spark/signed up to regulating body/jib card this would be first move to stop people putting themselves and there families at risk.

Wont work... I have worked abroad in countries where it is ILLEGAL for a non qualified sparks to carry out works of ANY kind.
However... these laws made little or no difference to the amount of work carried out by non qualified guys both for friends and paying customers.
There was always a supplier that would break the law and sell kit to anyone off the street, It all boiled down to money.
In this country of course we have car boot sales on every street corner where anyone can buy anything if the price is right..

 

[Deleted member 26818]

The problem with licensing schemes such as those in use in Australia, and which used to be in use in New Zealand, is that while they may increase profits for registered electricians, they are detrimental towards safety.
My thoughts regarding anyone who advocates licensing, are that they are either uninformed, or excessively greedy.

 

[Golden_Boy]

The problem with licensing schemes such as those in use in Australia, and which used to be in use in New Zealand, is that while they may increase profits for registered electricians, they are detrimental towards safety.
My thoughts regarding anyone who advocates licensing, are that they are either uninformed, or excessively greedy.

Australia was one of the countries I lived.. see above

 

[Deleted member 26818]

One of the reasons New Zealand has dropped the licensing scheme, and Australia is considering dropping it, is for safety.
The problem being that where someone cannot afford to employ a registered electrician, then bodges are made.
Take for instance a broken lightswitch faceplate.
Can't afford AU$150 for an electrician to replace the switch, cover it with Selotape or Ductape.
Or perhaps, nick one from a vacant property.

 

[OnlyHumanHere]

I've just bought a house that required a lot of work. I've no qualifications when it comes to electrics however it's not rocket science. I'm not paying someone £250 a day to rewire or fit new storage heaters in when I can do that myself.

Like someone said on the first page, where does it stop?

 

[7029 dave]

I've just bought a house that required a lot of work. I've no qualifications when it comes to electrics however it's not rocket science. I'm not paying someone £250 a day to rewire or fit new storage heaters in when I can do that myself.

Like someone said on the first page, where does it stop?

What you do in your home own is up to you, however masquerading as an Electrician charging people to work in their homes is another story IMO.

 

[Darkwood]

I've just bought a house that required a lot of work. I've no qualifications when it comes to electrics however it's not rocket science. I'm not paying someone £250 a day to rewire or fit new storage heaters in when I can do that myself.

Like someone said on the first page, where does it stop?

Looking in from the outside it often can seem its a doddle, but trust me, when you have spent 4yrs at college and with an apprenticeship and 27yrs in the trade, you see comments like yours and shake your head and think to yourself, if only they knew what we know.

No disrespect to yourself, I do wander though when you wired these storage heaters were you knowledged in -

Cable calc's and choice of protective device.
Cable zoning.
When and if RCD protection is required.
Confirmation of circuit and cable integrity through 'dead' tests.
Confirmation of earthing through live tests and an understanding how to interpret the results.
If required, is your equipotential bonding done to services like your Gas and Water and is it safe and compliant.

What I'm getting at is, there are many who think its simple as rule of thumb but just because you have an earth connected to your consumer unit and one connected to the storage heater doesn't mean its functional, compliant thus safe.

In your shoes, you would be better to look at it from the other aspect - would you pay £250 as a small price IMHO to pay to ensure the safety of your install from fire and the risks to your family that electric can pose- if you have had your worked checked and tested afterwards by a competent person then fair do's, I see no problem in undertaking such work in that case as long as you are not energising it before its been passed as safe.

 

[OnlyHumanHere]

It was a future tense comment. I've not done it yet, however at the moment I need all the plugs pulled out of the kitchen due to tanking needing to be done (I can do that myself, turn off at main box, pull plugs).

Then I'm just looking at replacing the old storage heaters...I've got my eyes on Quantum Dimplex. About 5 of them....I've thrown out all my current storage heaters (crikey, they're heavy). I don't see it being hard to rewire the Quantums in if I just use common sense, all the old SH have got E7 connection and main rail plug sockets next to them.

Once it's all done, I'll be getting an electrician to come over to certify it all, however I'm on a budget and can't afford to pay someone something I can do myself with the aid of youtube and some tools.

 

[Andy78]

It was a future tense comment. I've not done it yet, however at the moment I need all the plugs pulled out of the kitchen due to tanking needing to be done (I can do that myself, turn off at main box, pull plugs).

Then I'm just looking at replacing the old storage heaters...I've got my eyes on Quantum Dimplex. About 5 of them....I've thrown out all my current storage heaters (crikey, they're heavy). I don't see it being hard to rewire the Quantums in if I just use common sense, all the old SH have got E7 connection and main rail plug sockets next to them.

Once it's all done, I'll be getting an electrician to come over to certify it all, however I'm on a budget and can't afford to pay someone something I can do myself with the aid of youtube and some tools.

I'd get that electrician who will be "signing it off" to agree to this arrangement before you embark on this project. He will more than likely want to guide you and instruct you IF ​he agrees in the first place.
If you rang me after the fact and asked me the same I would give you the same response as would most professional electricians. It would involve lots of laughter followed by an engaged tone.

You'll always get a dodgy one to make you a cert up of course. Plenty of those clowns about.

 

[Darkwood]

It was a future tense comment. I've not done it yet, however at the moment I need all the plugs pulled out of the kitchen due to tanking needing to be done (I can do that myself, turn off at main box, pull plugs).

Then I'm just looking at replacing the old storage heaters...I've got my eyes on Quantum Dimplex. About 5 of them....I've thrown out all my current storage heaters (crikey, they're heavy). I don't see it being hard to rewire the Quantums in if I just use common sense, all the old SH have got E7 connection and main rail plug sockets next to them.

Once it's all done, I'll be getting an electrician to come over to certify it all, however I'm on a budget and can't afford to pay someone something I can do myself with the aid of youtube and some tools.

Please tell me you removed the bricks first :banghead: lol

 

[OnlyHumanHere]

haha yea, actually using some of them to build up my hearth for a fireplace I'm fitting. I'll be getting a nice hearth but I want it raised...figured I'd pay homage to the original heaters and use the bricks to good use.

 

[Darkwood]

haha yea, actually using some of them to build up my hearth for a fireplace I'm fitting. I'll be getting a nice hearth but I want it raised...figured I'd pay homage to the original heaters and use the bricks to good use.

Good luck, they are notouriously brittle and hard to work with unless your just stacking/laying them complete of course. :cool3:

 

[OnlyHumanHere]

Good luck, they are notouriously brittle and hard to work with unless your just stacking/laying them complete of course. :cool3:

That's exactly what I'm doing. Just about twice stacked, 4x4 bricks. Not cutting them or anything. The hearth will be floating at the edged, so no one will see the horrendous looking bricks...I just need some height.

 

[Andy78]

You can make a cracking pizza oven for the garden out of storage bricks

 

[Darkwood]

That's exactly what I'm doing. Just about twice stacked, 4x4 bricks. Not cutting them or anything. The hearth will be floating at the edged, so no one will see the horrendous looking bricks...I just need some height.

Also don't forget to look into insulation, this aint my field so I'll let you do the research but storage brick are designed to absorb heat very efficiently hence their density and weight, so anything below will be subject to thermal conduction as the brick pass it through


Anyway, thread straying off topic, ooops!.. I'm partly to blame

 

[Barry White]

haha yea, actually using some of them to build up my hearth for a fireplace I'm fitting. I'll be getting a nice hearth but I want it raised...figured I'd pay homage to the original heaters and use the bricks to good use.

please check if they contain adbestos Asbestos Storage Heaters reported to release Asbestos before repurposing the bricks