Plumbers replacing electric showers

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KevinS

Hi,
ive been tasked with writing a 'standard operation sheet' for plumbers to replace electric showers safely.

at the moment they are replacing showers with no test gear, then the electrician is following behind doing a Zs

my concern is; they turn it off at the dp switch and remove the shower, I am not happy that it is dead when they turn if off as they have no method of checking. There may be a fault on the dp switch and they would not know

is this an acceptable procedure
remove cover of shower.
turn shower on by double pole switch,
VOLTSTICK (yes I know) will indicate,
if volt stick does NOT indicate, stop and wait for advice off an electrician
turn off by dp switch, VOLTSTICK will stop indicating,
if VOLTSTICK does not stop indicating, stop and wait for electrician
switch breaker off at board and proceed

i know what you are going to say, but the company won't pay for test gear for 20+ plumbers, hence the VOLTSTICK idea.

is this classed as safe enough, it's safer than what's happening now,
cheers
 
i dont think I would be happy signing my name to that "safety operation sheet" . I dont know the legal implcations but should someone get hurt that could make you liable, if the company want to cut corners then let them write the sheet.
 
If one of your plumbers dies doing these changes without being competent, it will be interesting to see what the company stance will be when they are in court and asked why they were not supplying test equipment? The phrase it was to expensive won't cut it.
Ben
 
Or why don't they just switch the breaker off, rather than at the isolator, if in doubt get an electrician in, but even a voltage tester as mentioned before would be better than a volt stick alone. They would need a proving unit to prove the volt stick is working correctly.
 
I agree with u all
i did state that they were to prove the VOLTSTICK first before going any further by making sure it works on 1st test, I also have them switching off the dp switch and the breaker.

i know, 'can of worms springs' to mind
 
Mate for the sake of £30.00 to potentially save a life it's a no brainer.

If the spark has to go in after the plumber anyway then why not pair them up and have the best of both. Or alternatively have the sparks do the complete job.
 
Sintra said:
Mate for the sake of £30.00 to potentially save a life it's a no brainer.

If the spark has to go in after the plumber anyway then why not pair them up and have the best of both. Or alternatively have the sparks do the complete job.
Click to expand...

Too logical.

Nice try, but no coconut.
 
can you please re post the question after a few plumbers have been killed. there's far too many of them around, but never when you need one.
 
Testing for dead with a volt stick ? I did that once. I do miss those side cutters.
Anything you sign your name to has got to refer to proper safe isolation procedure and be carried out with proper approved testers. Anything less and your arse is hanging out in the breeze imho.
 
In my experience volt sticks are the most unreliable set of test gear on the market, not just the cheap ones even the fluke and ethos ones i have owned have been terrible for reliability. Also switching off at dp isnt acceptable, how can plumber know someone isnt going to turn back on whilst he's working on it (unlikely i know but possible). Your best option is to get a copy of the electricians safe isolation procedure and use that on your sheet. Its a bit OTT with regards to locking off mcb's etc and placing sign over consumer unit but for covering your own back it is the best option rather than just telling them to isolate at dp. Hope this is of some help to you
 
telectrix said:
can you please re post the question after a few plumbers have been killed. there's far too many of them around, but never when you need one.
Click to expand...

No, No, No, Tel.

Just keep posting an updated tally.

Why does an experienced electrician need a plumber?


To the OP. Are you going to put you're name to this procedure? If you do, you are a fool.
 
Dillb said:
I suggest reading GS 38 on to find out what a approved voltage tester is. The re read your post and see if you can see what is wrong with your post.
Click to expand...

I can see what's wrong with it, I did mention turning off dp switch and the breaker, I also did mention 'can of worms'.
at the moment they are taking them out with no testing whatsoever
 
tell your tight-arsed employers to pay for a spark to carry out the electrical side of the job instead of penny pinching. let the plumbers stick to what they do best. ........ shifting sh**, slagging everbody off, drowning customers.
 
snowhead said:
Blunt saw springs to mind.

No offence intended, but to the O.P what experience / training do you have to prepare S.O.P. (procedures)
Click to expand...

totally honest here, never wrote any procedures before, was asked today to 'knock up a sheet for the plumbers', that's why I came on here asking the question.
 
KevinS said:
I can see what's wrong with it, I did mention turning off dp switch and the breaker, I also did mention 'can of worms'.
at the moment they are taking them out with no testing whatsoever
Click to expand...


So basically your employer has realised the downfall of this and decided they need a scapegoat.

The reason safe isolation procedures suggest using a approved tester is for a reason, not because someone wants to be awkward. Think I may have PDF somewhere stating the correct procedure, I will post it up over the weekend so you can then give it to the plumbers safe in the knowledge it will be done correctly.
 
KevinS said:
I can see what's wrong with it, I did mention turning off dp switch and the breaker, I also did mention 'can of worms'.
at the moment they are taking them out with no testing whatsoever
Click to expand...

i really don't think you are going to the get the answer you are looking for, if they want a risk assessment/task sheet for this job I would just print them off the safe isolation procedure and them deal with it from there, that is honestly the only way to cover your arse without putting your self in the firing line
 
KevinS said:
I can see what's wrong with it, I did mention turning off dp switch and the breaker, I also did mention 'can of worms'.
at the moment they are taking them out with no testing whatsoever
Click to expand...

Let them carry on.

Why is it beholden to you to write the procedure? Why, to cover you're employers collective asses!
 
Couple of things don't worry about him connecting it up worry that he will upgrade it from a 7 to 9kw on a 3036 board as this seams to be the standard. Also isolation at the DP switch is a no no as domestic appliance guy got a shock from a cooker because the live connection was welded on at the switch.

One last point a voltage tester remember that they need to test between L-N then L-E then N-E because L-N would have been no good to the domestic appliance guy above
 
So a company big enough to employ 30 plumbers & vans wont spend £30ish on a decent set of fluke volt probes for workers they are legally obliged to protect ?
i'll call a laywer and ambulance for you.
;-)
 
onions1066 said:
i really don't think you are going to the get the answer you are looking for, if they want a risk assessment/task sheet for this job I would just print them off the safe isolation procedure and them deal with it from there, that is honestly the only way to cover your arse without putting your self in the firing line
Click to expand...

i have getting the answer I'm looking for - I'm not writing a procedure. Will let someone else do it, in a couple of weeks time he will have totally forgot that he asked me.
Cheers.
 
Report you boss to the HSE ASAP or get the said plumbers mates to practice their CPR or put 999 on speed dial for medical treatment
 
Is this the housing company with the Italian sounding name?

Untrained personnel isolating and working on unproven conductors is a death wish and no risk assessment or alternative method would satisfy a coroner at an inquest - Don't do it . Simple . They are looking for a scapegoat to aid production and cut costs , I doubt whether an electrician will ever "follow up"
 
a sligtht digression, but the last time i went to a shower that had been changed by a plumber, he'd found the 6mm cable was a tad short to reach the terminal block so he twisted and taped a bit of 2.5mm to the 6mm inside the shower. wondered why the shower wouldn't work a week later with his bodge all welded together and the 30A HRC fuse in the CU blown. muppet.
 
I can't see how this is going to work. Surely the plumbers would have to prove they're competent? at electrics ;)
How quickly behind the plumber does the electrician turn up to carry out the Zs measurement? 1 hour? 1 day? 1 week? Is the shower out of use until tested?
 
chrish_1977 said:
Or why don't they just switch the breaker off, rather than at the isolator, if in doubt get an electrician in, but even a voltage tester as mentioned before would be better than a volt stick alone. They would need a proving unit to prove the volt stick is working correctly.
Click to expand...

I agree, but I think I would be locking it off as well - just to be a bit safer.

As for our Friend the OP having to write this "Standard Operations Sheet", I think I would politely decline to do this UNLESS the company instructs me in writing and adds that in the event of an accident I will in no way be blamed for it and have it signed by the boss of the company. Even then, I wouldn't be entirely comfortable with it.
 
What's this I'm signing?
Oh don't worry about that, it won't concern you (until things go wrong. Then we'll have it coppied and sent to the corroners court).
 
I haven't read all of the answers but I'd be more inclined to turn the shower on, leave it running and flick the breaker off, lock it off and then switch the double pole isolator.

Obviously without test gear none of this would be done anyway and I would be telling the company MD to sign it...
 
Stuuk1 said:
I haven't read all of the answers but I'd be more inclined to turn the shower on, leave it running and flick the breaker off, lock it off and then switch the double pole isolator.

Obviously without test gear none of this would be done anyway and I would be telling the company MD to sign it...
Click to expand...

Probably right , but if they aint got the voltage tester they not likely to have a lock either :biggrin:
 
Andy78 said:
Testing for dead with a volt stick ? I did that once. I do miss those side cutters.
Anything you sign your name to has got to refer to proper safe isolation procedure and be carried out with proper approved testers. Anything less and your arse is hanging out in the breeze imho.
Click to expand...
May be better checking for a pulse....after isolation, of course.
 
Why doesn't the electrician go too when plumbers turn up to change the shower he/she can isolate for them correctly then revisit to do the test. Simples
 
Geordie Spark said:
Well it's that 15mm water pipe innit ..... can't have electricians touching that mate .. that's the plumber's job!!
Click to expand...
That will be because you don't understand the different compression (or sealing) properties between a copper olive and a brass olive. Is the brass olive one belt with the apprentices head against the end of the spanner to seal and the copper olive two belts with the apprentices head against the end of the spanner to seal?

Or the other way round?

See the issue?? Its highly technical and you need to be able to read grunt to be able to understand the plumbers regs. (and find a copy!!).

(Just realised I'm quoting Geordie who, may, have a subliminal understanding of grunt!! :smilielol5::icon10:)
 
grantr37 said:
o oh.....flush the toilet and the light comes on.....
Click to expand...

I'm not letting a plumber anywhere near my new TechnoToilet!

Flushmounted.jpg
 
Elmer BeFuddled said:
That will be because you don't understand the different compression (or sealing) properties between a copper olive and a brass olive. Is the brass olive one belt with the apprentices head against the end of the spanner to seal and the copper olive two belts with the apprentices head against the end of the spanner to seal?

Or the other way round?

See the issue?? Its highly technical and you need to be able to read grunt to be able to understand the plumbers regs. (and find a copy!!).

(Just realised I'm quoting Geordie who, may, have a subliminal understanding of grunt!! :smilielol5::icon10:)
Click to expand...

And who are you calling a grunt????
 
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