Should Electric Oven Have Switch? & Question re. Whether Need New Cert.

[Novice12]

Hello,

I have just had a new builder with his own Electrician come in to do the following:
Kitchen:
- Install an electric oven. There was a switch / cable in the kitchen already for it to be connected to done by the previous builder's Electrician.
- Install an electric extractor hood in kitchen.
- Wire up gas hob for its electrical ignition.
Bathroom:
- Install electric shower. There was already an electric cable for the shower left loose in the loft above bathroom and connected to the fuse board at the other end which was done by a previous builder's Electrician.

On inspecting the kitchen I have found that there is one new wall plug socket into which the plug for the ignnition for the gas hob goes and there is 1 new switch which is for the electric extractor hood. I can't locate a switch in the kitchen for the electric oven.

My questions are:
1. Should there be a switch in the kitchen for the electric oven or is it sufficient for this to be switched on or off at the fuse board as it has its own circuit there and if there should be a switch in the kitchen should this be visible/readily accessible because at the moment I can't locate one and I am thinking that maybe if there is one it is hidden somewhere, perhaps behind the oven.

2. What certificate/s if any should the Elecrician have provided for this work as he has added 1 new plug socket and one new switch for the extractor hood and also installed electric shower onto and already installed electric shower cable.

3. Should my builder be holding back the certificate/s untill he has been paid in full?

Thanks,

A

 

[Pete999]

Sounds like your builder is a bit of a Cowboy, don't pay him until you get a EIC and yes your cooker should have an Isolation switch, as a by was the electrician part of a Competent Persons Scheme, NICEIC, ELECSA or one of the miriad of these schemes?

 

[Octopus]

- Install electric shower. There was already an electric cable for the shower left loose in the loft above bathroom and connected to the fuse board at the other end which was done by a previous builder's Electrician.

Are you telling us the whole story here ... just a couple of weeks back you were asking if a door bell circuit could share with a lighting circuit so the "spare" way could be used for the shower......

On the subject of the cooker, its GOOD PRACTICE to have a DP isolator for ALL fixed appliances so when the RCD starts tripping (and yes it will) you can easily isolate all appliances

 

[telectrix]

an isolator for the oven is good practice, but not essential. as said. isolation can be achieved by switching off the breaker. you should have an electrical installation certificate. this could be a minor works id no new circuits have been added. certificate/s should be handed over when or before your final payment is made.

 

[Novice12]

Sounds like your builder is a bit of a Cowboy, don't pay him until you get a EIC and yes your cooker should have an Isolation switch, as a by was the electrician part of a Competent Persons Scheme, NICEIC, ELECSA or one of the miriad of these schemes?

I believe he was part of NICEIC. If that's the case would the EIC be an NICEIC one?

 

[Novice12]

Are you telling us the whole story here ... just a couple of weeks back you were asking if a door bell circuit could share with a lighting circuit so the "spare" way could be used for the shower......

On the subject of the cooker, its GOOD PRACTICE to have a DP isolator for ALL fixed appliances so when the RCD starts tripping (and yes it will) you can easily isolate all appliances

Telling you the full story. Had new builder with new Electrician as stated in my post. You say is good practice to have a DP isolator for all fixed appliaces. What is a DP isolator, is this the switch I can't find for the oven? Also is it just good practice or is it a building regs requirement? Also because the oven is on its own circuit from the fuse board wouldn't this mean the problem of not being able to isolate other appliances when RCD starts tripping not apply in this situation?

 

[Pete999]

Should be

 

[Des 56]

Your on Builder No 2 and he is holding back certification
There are half finished wiring jobs and uncertainty over what needs to be agreed or is compulsory to provide
There are loads with control that obviously have not been agreed between the parties

I think Murdoch has a very good point "Are you telling us the whole story here"

 

[Octopus]

Should be

I think he means it should be in the regs...

 

[Octopus]

Telling you the full story. Had new builder with new Electrician as stated in my post. You say is good practice to have a DP isolator for all fixed appliaces. What is a DP isolator, is this the switch I can't find for the oven? Also is it just good practice or is it a building regs requirement? Also because the oven is on its own circuit from the fuse board wouldn't this mean the problem of not being able to isolate other appliances when RCD starts tripping not apply in this situation?

Telling you the full story. Had new builder with new Electrician as stated in my post. You say is good practice to have a DP isolator for all fixed appliaces. What is a DP isolator, is this the switch I can't find for the oven? Also is it just good practice or is it a building regs requirement? Also because the oven is on its own circuit from the fuse board wouldn't this mean the problem of not being able to isolate other appliances when RCD starts tripping not apply in this situation?

I'm amazed that you managed to kick the first builder/sparky into touch and get new ones so quickly...... if they were any good they wouldn't be available...

 

[Novice12]

an isolator for the oven is good practice, but not essential. as said. isolation can be achieved by switching off the breaker. you should have an electrical installation certificate. this could be a minor works id no new circuits have been added. certificate/s should be handed over when or before your final payment is made.

Thanks,

Would the Electrician need to send a copy of the certificate to his governing body (which I think is NICEIC) so they can send out a Building Regulations Certificate of Compliance (I got one of these after previous electrician installed new fuse board and re-wired house) or is this not necessary for the work he has done as detailed in my original post?

Thanks.

 

[telectrix]

if it's notifiable work, e.g. new circuit/s, then it should be notified to LABC.

 

[Octopus]

The sparky should give you the Electrical Certificates directly ... Part P compliance Certificates come from their scheme.....

These are completely different certificates.

 

[Novice12]

I'm amazed that you managed to kick the first builder/sparky into touch and get new ones so quickly...... if they were any good they wouldn't be available...

First builder and his electrician had finished the work I had asked them to do. We had broken the job into a first stage and finishg stage and so first builder having done the first stage and me not having liked the 4 months it had taken him after he had told me 4 weeks (plus other problems) I didn't ask him back to do the next stage.

 

[Octopus]

So was it the 1st or 2nd spark who told you he couldn't put the door bell on the lighting circuit?

If one spark has first fixed and the second done the 2nd fix - neither can self certify under Part P

 

[Novice12]

So was it the 1st or 2nd spark who told you he couldn't put the door bell on the lighting circuit?

If one spark has first fixed and the second done the 2nd fix - neither can self certify under Part P

2nd one.

 

[Novice12]

Your on Builder No 2 and he is holding back certification
There are half finished wiring jobs and uncertainty over what needs to be agreed or is compulsory to provide
There are loads with control that obviously have not been agreed between the parties

I think Murdoch has a very good point "Are you telling us the whole story here"

Yes, telling you the full story. I don't understand why is coming across as that complicated: I had one builder / Electrician in to rewire house which included putting wire for shower in and wire for electric oven with swtich on it but he didn't put in shower itself or oven as this was a 2nd stage job that hadn't asked them to do yet. Didn't use them again due to problems including the 1st builder taking 4 months to complete the other works that he said would take 4 weeks. Got 2nd builder in to do 2nd stage which included fitting bathroom suite including electric shower and fitting kitchen including wirining in oven, gas hob's ignition and extractor hood. Now I can't find switch for oven and wonder if should be one by law and not got any certificates yet from 2nd builder who is saying will give them to me once paid in full.

 

[Novice12]

if it's notifiable work, e.g. new circuit/s, then it should be notified to LABC.

So is the work I have outlined notifiable (adding 1 new plug socket for gas hob's ignition, adding 1 new switch for kitchen extractor hood and fitting a shower to an already existing cable), I don't believe any new circuits put onto the fuse board to do any of this work?

 

[Toneyz]

I believe he was part of NICEIC. If that's the case would the EIC be an NICEIC one?

not always just because they are a part of one of the NICEIC screams you do not need to use there certificates (but they like you to) along as it is based upon BS7671 now this may have gone to the builder as they are employing the services of the electrician. The Building compliance certificate (part P certificate as people call it) should be sent to the dwelling.

 

[Novice12]

The sparky should give you the Electrical Certificates directly ... Part P compliance Certificates come from their scheme.....

These are completely different certificates.

So I can understand the certificates I should get:

From the original re-wire work I got directly from the 1st builder/Electrician a Domestic Electrical Installation Certificate on NICEIC headed paper and then later I got a certificate from NICEIC which says "Building Regulation Certificate of Compliance" and refers to regulations 4 & 7 of The Building Regulations 2010 for England and Wales.

Is the first certificate an example of the Electrical Certificates you say the Electrician should give me directly and the second a Part P compliance Certificate that you say should come from their scheme?

 

[Taylortwocities]

So I can understand the certificates I should get:

From the original re-wire work I got directly from the 1st builder/Electrician a Domestic Electrical Installation Certificate on NICEIC headed paper and then later I got a certificate from NICEIC which says "Building Regulation Certificate of Compliance" and refers to regulations 4 & 7 of The Building Regulations 2010 for England and Wales.

Is the first certificate an example of the Electrical Certificates you say the Electrician should give me directly and the second a Part P compliance Certificate that you say should come from their scheme?

Exactly

 

[Toneyz]

I have read this post not one if I am correct have you just asked the builder/electrician where the switch is ?.

 

[Phil Thompson]

Yes, have you asked about the switch? Was it there before the kitchen went in? Could it be behind one of the units?
As in positioned in the wrong place in 1st fix?

 

[Novice12]

I have read this post not one if I am correct have you just asked the builder/electrician where the switch is ?.

Not yet, I wanted to know if there should be one before I do this so I know how to respond if he says there isn't one.

 

[Novice12]

Yes, have you asked about the switch? Was it there before the kitchen went in? Could it be behind one of the units?
As in positioned in the wrong place in 1st fix?

There was a switch there before the kitchen went in, lying on the floor approximately where oven to go and attached to calbe that ran to fuse board. I haven't asked builder yet as wanted to know if there should be one and if it should be accessible before I ask so I know how to respond if he tells me isn't one or if is one but is hidden behind oven or something.

 

[buzzlightyear]

was their a contract from the first say builder .in writing and second in writing .
and signed ?
the second builder does not have to hand over the test cert till payment is made
how ever he can reg the job within the 30days of completing the said works

 

[Taylortwocities]

In the schedule of works, what reference is there to the existing (or a new) cooker switch?

Note per the above. There is no wiring regulation that says you must have an isolating switch for a cooker, etc.

 

[Novice12]

was their a contract from the first say builder .in writing and second in writing .
and signed ?
the second builder does not have to hand over the test cert till payment is made
how ever he can reg the job within the 30days of completing the said works

Surely handing over certificates that are part of showing the job has been done is part of completing the works and so I shoudln't pay full amount as not completed? How else can I guarantee if there are any problems with the certificates such as not having been filled out properly (I had this issue with last builder) can I be sure they will rectify the problem?

 

[Midwest]

Whilst compliance with BS7671, by isolating the electric oven by turning off the CU main switch may be achieved, that's not particular useful in the middle of the night.

Most electrical installations I've seen and done myself, choose to comply with the regs, for isolation, switching, mechanical maintenance, etc etc, by installing a local isolator. Manufacturers instructions should also be taken into account, and normally say something like;

The cooker must be supplied via a suitable double pole isolating switch, having a contact separation of at least 3mm in all poles placed in a readily accessible position adjacent to the cooker.

 

[Midwest]

Certificates are part of the installation, and should be given to the person ordering the work, regardless of payment.

However, next time you have your car serviced & MOT'd, see how you get on with walking off with the service document and paying the workshop 3 weeks later. Don't think they'd give your keys back, until you hand over the dosh

 

[Octopus]

was their a contract from the first say builder .in writing and second in writing .
and signed ?
the second builder does not have to hand over the test cert till payment is made
how ever he can reg the job within the 30days of completing the said works

100% wrong unless this was stated on the builders quote.

Back to the OP - so the first electrician rewired the house completely and didn't leave any spare ways?

 

[Novice12]

100% wrong unless this was stated on the builders quote.

Back to the OP - so the first electrician rewired the house completely and didn't leave any spare ways?

That's right. I said to the builder from the very start I wanted to have an electric shower. I said I wanted to have one in addition to probably having a combi boiler supplied shower too in case ever have a boiler breakdown so I can still have shower etc. However installing the shower itself was not part of his work, only to wire-up the house so I can have one installed in the 2nd stage of the works. He then went and got a 10-way consumer unit and told the Electrician to install. I think the builder forgot about the cable for the shower and then must have bought the inadequate 6mm2 cable. The electrician told me after that the builder had told him that the shower would probably never be used/installed even though I had been 100% clear from the very start that I wanted one so the wiring for one was needed. This meant the cable was put in but I gather was not actually attached to a circuit on the consumer unit but rather just tucked away behind it or something.

 

[Midwest]

That's the problem with builders, they think they know best. Just let them pour the cement, and put the bricks one on top the other. Ask your technical questions for the other aspects of the work, to the trade that is carrying out the work.

 

[Octopus]

So the rewire CU didn't comply with the regs then... there should ALWAYS be spare ways.....

Next time you get some work done, make sure you engage a spark who knows what he's doing and doesn't allow the builder to supply the parts..

 

[Octopus]

So the rewire CU didn't comply with the regs then... there should ALWAYS be spare ways.....

Next time you get some work done, make sure you engage a spark who knows what he's doing and doesn't allow the builder to supply the parts..

 

[Taylortwocities]

So the rewire CU didn't comply with the regs then... there should ALWAYS be spare ways.....

I agree with the PRINCIPLE of that. But I have never seen a regulation.
Reference number please!

 

[sham]

I man over cooked his food in the oven, which caused a fire, which made ir difficult for him to turn off the cooker nobs. If he had a switch, he could off turnedbthe whole lot off. When the fire started, he never thought of turning the MCB at the board. The firemen told him there needs to be a switch. He complained to the landlord, which was stupid because he installed the cooker himself.

 

[Midwest]

Sparksburntout, if your reading these posts from afar, in your enforced absence, you'll see the standards of spelling and grammar are not improving.

 

[Midwest]

I agree with the PRINCIPLE of that. But I have never seen a regulation.
Reference number please!

We all have our off days, when we say things we regret, even Murdoch.

Here's him putting that right #8; Consumer Unit regulations - http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/threads/consumer-unit-regulations.54749/

Frightening putting stuff on the web, its there for importunity

 

[Novice12]

That's the problem with builders, they think they know best. Just let them pour the cement, and put the bricks one on top the other. Ask your technical questions for the other aspects of the work, to the trade that is carrying out the work.

I think the last builder was shielding him from me. The Electrician later told me he likes to meet the client to discuss the client's needs. I don't know why he didn't do this in my case.

 

[Midwest]

Nope most builders think they are the bee's knee's and know all there is to know about everything. Quite frankly, most only know how to lay bricks, plaster or cut wood, and some not all of them together.

 

[Rosco]

I think the last builder was shielding him from me. The Electrician later told me he likes to meet the client to discuss the client's needs. I don't know why he didn't do this in my case.

That's normally because the builder doesn't want the conversation to go to money and you realise the mark up he's put on top for the sparks

 

[Midwest]

We all have our off days, when we say things we regret, even Murdoch.

Here's him putting that right #8; Consumer Unit regulations - http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/threads/consumer-unit-regulations.54749/

Frightening putting stuff on the web, its there for importunity

Sorry Sparksburntout, meant to say Perpetuity. Can only blame it on a gin & tonic I had in my grubby hand at the time.

 

[Rpa07]

Sorry Sparksburntout, meant to say Perpetuity. Can only blame it on a gin & tonic I had in my grubby hand at the time.

If sparksburntout were here, God bless his period of naughty step! he would, no doubtedly, say "quoting yourself in the sober light of day - oh the mighty have fallen" or something like that!

 

[Midwest]

If sparksburntout were here, God bless his period of naughty step! he would, no doubtedly, say "quoting yourself in the sober light of day - oh the mighty have fallen" or something like that!

Just goes to show, nobody else spotted it. With Sparksburntout self imposed absence, seems only right to correct it myself

 

[Rpa07]

Just goes to show, nobody else spotted it. With Sparksburntout self imposed absence, seems only right to correct it myself

I think that incorrect spelling winds him up more than grammar or meaning. Your phrase sounded intelligent so would have got past the 'sparkspoliceburntout'. I do like it when he gets on a rant usually sparked by a certain Toy story character!

 

[Octopus]

We all have our off days, when we say things we regret, even Murdoch.

Here's him putting that right #8; Consumer Unit regulations - http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/threads/consumer-unit-regulations.54749/

Frightening putting stuff on the web, its there for importunity

Hands up..... I think its in a guide I read ... however

132.3 (vi) does elude to this (in a round about way)

Sure there are CU changes where a larger CU isn't possible but again its down to decent workmanship and thinking ahead... and as I fit RCBO boards, I like to have the ability to have gaps so rings, radials, lights and out buildings are not all in 1 row....