Discuss Single Pole RCBO in TT with Time Delay RCD Incomer in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

C

Craig Rogers

Hello,

Newcomer to the forum, so hello all.

Just to clarify, although I understand most of my way around the regs and workings, still get an approved guy to to any work......just thought I'd get that out of the way!

Anyhow, I have an old property that fed by good old overhead Live/Neutral so have a TT earthing pole.

When the property was renovated, the whole place was re-wired and a new CU was installed. As the meter and fuse is around 4m from the CU, there is also an Type S 100amp RCD incomer protecting the tails to the CU. The CU has been recently replaced as the incomer was tripping and on investigation, it was installed in a strange way, it was a single 30amp RCD CU and the lighting was being protected by the RCD and the socket rings on the non-protected side, hence why the incomer was tripping.

The original CU also had a 40amp mcb providing a feed to another small CU (without RCD) in an outbuilding.

I suspect the fault lies within the outbuilding and of course, the main incomer would trip.

Therefore, the CU has been replaced with a 17th edition one configured in High Integrity with dual RCDs splitting the lights and rings and also an RCBO feeding the outside CU.

However, and yes, I finally get to the question!....... As this RCBO is single pole, am I correct in thinking that if there is a N-E fault then as the RCCB is single pole it might not trip and still cause the incomer RCD to trip instead taking out the whole CU. Or should the RCCB still trip out first?

We had a trip yesterday where again the main incomer RCD tripped. This is causing a big issue as we have a monitored alarm which is losing power. It's battery backed up, but if we are away for a few days will cause the battery to drain and has actually destroyed a battery in the past.

It could just be a faulty Type S 100ma RCD (it does tend to buzz on high throughput) as there is never a common reason for it to trip, or am I right in my thinking that as a Single Pole RCBO doesn't break the Neutral (and remember is on a TT system) which could cause the incomer to trip.

Many thanks for your help in advance.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Yes it is, it's a British General one - BG Electrical

So personally, I would of thought that if there was a N-E fault then it would still trip, but because the N isn't being broken, the RCD would also trip. However, it doesn't, just the RCD trips.
 
RCBOs should never be used on installations where time delayed RCD protection has been used between it and the source of supply unless they are double pole or single pole switched neutral. Single pole will not do (which the majority or RCBOs are).

Edit: For the avoidance of doubt, I removed reference to upstream/downstream.
 
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Thanks D Skelton, this is what I was assuming. However, if there was a N-E fault, am I correct in thinking that the SP RCBO should still trip along with the RCD? I thought a SP RCBO still trips with a N-E fault, but of course, not breaking it, hence the time delay RCD then tripping. Luckily, there is enough room in the CU to fit a double sized DP RCBO, can't put a single sized DP in there as it needs to go on the Buzz bar
 
A SPSN RCBO down stream will be fine unless a two phase supply is involved, the RCD part of the RCBO will still Detect a N-E fault the Switched N will disconnect it.

Edit: see^^ #5
 
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Define upstream/downstream??

I say downstream is towards the supply, upstream is towards the load.

You get my point.

Is 5th gear in a car a high gear or a low gear?
 
I see what your saying, I just thought you had read it wrong...
upstream to me has always ment to the origin... But that could just be me

No lol, I didn't read it wrong, as you say, my definition of upstream/downstream is clearly different. I've edited my post to remove doubt.
 
Okay, semantics aside, assuming a DP S-Type RCD up-front ;-), why is a SPSN RCBO not suitable closer to the load in single Phase situations ?
 
i always refer to downstream to be the load end. current flows from source to load, same as a river flows from source, so up is the supply end, and down is the load end.
 
Okay, semantics aside, assuming a DP S-Type RCD up-front ;-), why is a SPSN RCBO not suitable closer to the load in single Phase situations ?

In the event of a neutral to earth fault the single pole RCBO will trip but not clear the fault and so the DP RCD will trip.

Whilst not breaking any regs it messes up any discrimination you may want!
 
In the event of a neutral to earth fault the single pole RCBO will trip but not clear the fault and so the DP RCD will trip.

Whilst not breaking any regs it messes up any discrimination you may want!


SPSN = Single Pole Switched Neutral in this context, I am aware SPSN could apply to single pole SOLID Neutral types too though :)
 
SPSN = Single Pole Switched Neutral in this context, I am aware SPSN could apply to single pole SOLID Neutral types too though :)

No, the nomenclature is pretty well defined.

SP (or SP+N) single pole (solid neutral)
SPSN single pole switched neutral
DP double pole
TP triple pole
TPN (or TP+N ) triple pole solid neutral
TPSN triple pole switched neutral
 

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