Discuss The great pat testing scam in the Electrical Testing & PAT Testing Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

I find some of these comments very interesting, if a little short-sighted. I have the unenviable task of carrying out PAT work on a regular basis and I would like to speak on behalf of the hitherto unrepresented. Firstly, it is unreasonable to criticise them for lack of experience and qualification when all that is needed to carry out this work is the City and Guilds 2377 Certificate of Competence. This requires a very high percentage to pass the examination and I know of many who have had to look elsewhere following their repeated lack of success in attempting to secure the qualification. Is it their fault that qualification does not require years of training, endless exams and assessments? No. I know only too well that there are those who do little more than slap on a sticker but I feel that to tar them all with the same brush is somewhat harsh. The example of the tester being criticised for doing nothing more than applying the stickers to ceiling-mounted equipment, when he had already stated that it was purely a visual inspection, is unfounded. A visual inspection is exactly that, and does not require opening up or even unplugging the appliance, where conditions dictate that this be the case. As for risk assessment, we all know what H&S regulations mean and I would agree that if he had been told not to work from access equipment then he should not do so. As for planting "modified" equipment to catch someone out? Nothing better to do, perhaps. I trust that the time taken attempting to trip others up will not be billed to the client?

Then there is the issue of cost. The so-called "50p a test merchants", cowboys, jokers or whatever else people choose to call them are not all charging this paltry sum because they feel like it. There are those who, admittedly, go in purely on price but the majority of them have been driven to it by a combination of factors including the cheap and cheerful operators but, just as importantly, an increasingly cost-conscious client base who will quite happily play one company off against another until a bargain-basement price is agreed. That, coupled with an employer who demands more and more work from his testers in less and less time has, undoubtedly led to some corner-cutting. Add to this the fact that the reduced cost per test means that they are having to do more work, just to stand still, and you will see why we are finding it very hard to compete on a level footing. As one contributor has suggested, the customer is usually happy with everything being "stickered up" for the right price. Unfortunately, there is an element of truth in this and many of them do not consider the serious implications as deeply as they do the cost. And remember, the company agrees the amount per test, the engineer receives far less!

As a company, we perform visual and full checks and change plugs/fuses included in the cost. We provide the customer with a detailed breakdown of the testing carried out by location/item, with a full list of failures being issued before we leave site and we are charging nowhere near £2 per test, nor have we for some time. Had we continued to charge at our previous rates, we would have sunk without trace long ago. Did we instigate this plummet in rates? No, our hand was forced and we are all suffering as a result, not just the "real" electricians. Given the time and fair remuneration, any PAT engineer would be happy to do the job 100% correctly. Unfortunately many of them are lucky to earn £50.00 per day. Hardly a get-rich-quick scheme, is it? Place the blame where you see fit, we are all entitled to our opinion, but don't just drop the blame on the guy in the firing line. Look a little deeper into the cause.

Oh, and by the way, we aren't allowed to work overhead either!
 
I have read your post and agree with none of it.
I strongly disagree with your suggestion that a visual inspection is purely sticking a sticker on an appliance still plugged in. As a minimum it would involve checking the appliance for physical damage,checking the lead for the same,and removing the plug to check for secure cord grip,correct fuse and correct connection.
I can assure you that this clown did not carry out any of those checks.
As for 'booby trapping' an appliance to catch these guys out I would not refute the suggestion that this was a rather underhand tactic and in fact none of my business. But the fact that these guys put a passed sticker on a potentially dangerous appliance confirmed my belief that they are nothing more than rip off merchants.It may well be that you yourself do a good and proper job and it would be wrong to tar all with the same brush...but from what I've seen in this and other establishments that is the case.
The suggestion in your post that having to cut costs in order to compete for work gives some a valid reason to cut corners is a bit of an eye-opener considering the test is supposed to be about safety.....there is nothing in your post to make me change my opinion that pat testing is a scam....if anything it re-inforces it. Thankyou for confirming what I already knew.
 
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BOC I don't see how you have offered any reasonable defence yourself and others involved in cheap PAT testing. Attempting to justify your own cheap rates and poor quality is because of others doesn't put you in a good light

You have only reiterated what has already been said in the rest of this thread

The way your method of PAT testing is going you may as well just supply a load of stickers to the customer and let him do his own PAT testing if attaching stickers is the only pre requisite. If being cheap is your primary objective to compete then you must obviously accept that sooner or later somebody will be injured or killed as you cannot afford to do the work properly.

Does your "increasingly cost-conscious client base" know and understand their liability and what they are getting for their money and the H&S implications if it all goes wrong

The issue of working overhead is obviously due to the fact that the cost of an appropriate course and the extra insurance cannot be funded by your paltery piece work rate

As for your modified equipment comment it just shows that your visual inspection it not worth the effort and apparently sound equipment can have faults

I just hope your PAT testing does not result in injury to some one as I assume you accept that a room in one of Her Majesty's Hotels may be the outcome
 
I agree with BOC in that it is not the 'fault' of the tester that years of training aren't required, although I would disagree that "[C&G 2377] requires a very high percentage to pass the examination" considering all the answers are in the book which you have in front of you in the exam.

I agree with wirepuller in that a 'visual' (or more accurately an 'all senses except taste') inspection consists of much more than just checking the appliance is there - without doing any testing the cable can be checked for breaks, fraying of sheathing, and makeshift repairs, the plugtop can be checked for damage, condition of connections (including polarity) and fuse, extension cables can be checked for evidence of overheating, and any appliance can be given a gentle shake to check for rattling (I once failed a fan heater because there was a giant paper clip in it which I couldn't get out).
Portable Appliance Testing is similar to testing an installation but on a smaller scale; no 'proper electrician' would sign a periodic as 'visual only' after walking into a property and just checking the installation is there - I would consider that to be recklessly irresponsible. People can and have been killed from absence of earthing in an installation (what is essentially test method 2 is the first test required on a class 1 appliance), but obviously after 1 day someone wouldn't appreciate what is involved in testing an installation.

I suppose the solution to guaranteeing competence would be for the 2377 to be only offered as an additional course to those that have already completed the 2360 or 2330 or gold card holders.
 
Bit of an update.
Today I was at the school doing some minor repairs and the caretaker pointed out a socket in the corridor which was almost entirly black with carbon scorch marks. It seems a cleaner plugged in a floor polisher and as she did so there was a loud bang from the plug and she recieved a shock...(not serious luckily). Upshot was that the cord grip on the plug was not secure and the single wires were pulling out and something shorted......Guess what was stuck on the appliance plug??....answers to me on the back of a ten pound note please.

The caretaker said that the testers had claimed 6000 appliances tested,there were 3 blokes and they were there 3 days.
Now if you allow them a standard 8hr day....(somewhat generous as their vans were gone by 3-4pm when I saw them)...that makes 666 appliances per man per day.....or one every 43 seconds.
Not bad going I reckon.
 
:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

I'm all for goin round and doin em over.....what ya reckon????


Seriously though, it makes my blood boil does this. What chance does an honest reliable spark have with complete (insert own description here) like this on the loose. I gave up on PAT a long time ago, only do it for a few regulars now who know the score and are happy to pay me to do it correctly.
 
Now if you allow them a standard 8hr day....(somewhat generous as their vans were gone by 3-4pm when I saw them)...that makes 666 appliances per man per day.....or one every 43 seconds.

How significant is that number!:eek:

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
I'm all for goin round and doin em over.....what ya reckon????

Seriously though, it makes my blood boil does this. What chance does an honest reliable spark have with complete (insert own description here) like this on the loose. I gave up on PAT a long time ago, only do it for a few regulars now who know the score and are happy to pay me to do it correctly.

I'm of the same mind Ben, but quite honestly the lack of any integrity evident in the actions of these 'testers' jsut makes me despair. Regardless of the pressures for maximising profits and the threat of competition these companies have a duty of care to ensure that any safety checks are just that; Safe. I hope (as a company) that they are reported andt at least struck off of the approved register at (any) council. Trouble is this company will, likely as not, blame the individuals even though we all know the pressure was on them to "get the job done" (although if these guys had any respectability then the job would have been done properly):mad:
~ probably another example of a certificate being placed before experience and passed as competency.:(
 
Bunch of total chancers there is no way on this planet that 1 man could test 666 appliances per day.

On PATs I try to aim for 10 items per hour 80 per day and that can be hard enough to get.
 
Recently during an interview with a large PAT testing company I was told that they expect 1,100 assets inspected and tested per week and that they believe it is quite achievable on many sites, and suggested that they might offer bonuses beyond 1,100 assets.

This means they were aiming at 220 units per day.
 
bst i achieved was 130 a day and i was 8.30 - 5 roughly 14p/h and lots of them were class 2 (chargers and other useless office gizmos)

that was a hard push to keep motivated..! was there 3 days!
 
Recently during an interview with a large PAT testing company I was told that they expect 1,100 assets inspected and tested per week and that they believe it is quite achievable on many sites, and suggested that they might offer bonuses beyond 1,100 assets.

This means they were aiming at 220 units per day.

And what were they paying for this target
 
I usually average 1 item every 5 mins and I do a thorough visual check. Having a barcode scanner and my own item sheets does speed things slightly and now using the Fluke 6500 in fast mode on the auto test sequences helps a lot too.

I charge roughly £2 per item thus netting about £20-24 per hour. Got a large contract doing caravans with a set price of £9.50 per van with up to 6 items. This allows for packing up moving to the next van and starting again.

At anything less than £1.75 per item Id be looking at a well prepared site (everything brought to me) and volumes ove 500 items. If someone tries to beat me on price I am in the fortunate position of being able to walk away (9/10 I get a call back!!!) and say if you want it doing properly then thats the price.
 
just been for an interview with a Large distribution deopt as maintenance electrician I asked if they had did PAT In house or farmed it out they said they farm it out @ 30p an item YES thats not a typo 30p ner item I nearly fell off the seat If I get the job be assured Ill be checking everything I use / touch as if they r prepared to cut Pat testing that far back whats the pirs gonny be like??
 
In a perfect world where time and price are not an issue would anyone like to go through the process of a perfect pat test on a portable apliance
 
It's a bit of a joke. This whole thing drives down the price and quality of PAT testers. It will get to the stage where testers are simply unable to perform proper tests as it take to long for what they are having to charge to get the work. And this means appliances will be passing, that should fail, thus defeating the object of PAT testing.
 
It's a bit of a joke. This whole thing drives down the price and quality of PAT testers. It will get to the stage where testers are simply unable to perform proper tests as it take to long for what they are having to charge to get the work. And this means appliances will be passing, that should fail, thus defeating the object of PAT testing.

The quality of the cheapee testers has to be questioned

I think it is at that stage now where the testing is not performed properly except by those charging a proper rate that actually earns them a living. Unfortunately most company management now is accountant and price driven only price matters not quality or safety

Under the EAWR I wonder who will be left holding the "baby" if something goes wrong will it be the employer, the buyer for buying in sub standard work or the company actually doing the testing, until somebody is killed and the precedent is set we will never know.
 

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