What do I need to legally start working as an electrician?

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SyncroMan said:
I've been in the building trade for the past 27 years as a carpenter/builder and without trying to sound big headed know a fair bit about house building. Over the years i have altered a few sockets here and there without thinking too much of the consequences, whats wrong with wanting to be able to do this safely and to the current regs? Please explain why I should get a fully qualified electrician in to do this for me?
Click to expand...
I've been in the game 34 years since I started my time and have knocked a fair few nails in over the years. Now tell me why I should get a proper joiner in to build my new roof structure.
 
shagbite said:
i don't think you're arrogant, just a little misguided.

what you should be aiming for is competence. the word 'qualified' gets banded-about quite a lot, but in reality, on it's own, it doesn't really mean anything.

of course, it's a good idea to have 'qualifications' as part of the package that proves competency. but along with this, you need experience and practical skills - something that can't be obtained in a classroom.
Click to expand...


Shagbite;

Correct me if I am wrong but to be competent you still need to be given the chance to do some real life work. Without it, I doubt anyone will ever be competent at any industry.
 
trev said:
I've been in the game 34 years since I started my time and have knocked a fair few nails in over the years. Now tell me why I should get a proper joiner in to build my new roof structure.
Click to expand...

I got no problems with that, you wont find a carpentry forum giving you grief for it though, If you can cut a roof on then all credit to you mate.

That wasn't really answering my question though? I wasn't trying to belittle electricians I've got every respect for those who do the job properly!
 
SyncroMan said:
I got no problems with that, you wont find a carpentry forum giving you grief for it though, If you can cut a roof on then all credit to you mate.

That wasn't really answering my question though? I wasn't trying to belittle electricians I've got every respect for those who do the job properly!
Click to expand...

It's just me & Trev's gentle Geordie humour. ;)
 
SyncroMan said:
I got no problems with that, you wont find a carpentry forum giving you grief for it though, If you can cut a roof on then all credit to you mate.

That wasn't really answering my question though? I wasn't trying to belittle electricians I've got every respect for those who do the job properly!
Click to expand...
That's my point mate. I've got 2 good mates who are joiners who I've picked a load up from over the years but I wouldn't dream of taking on anything like that. I honestly believe in the old horses for courses thing. You have your area of expertise, we have ours and I think that that level of demarcation should be maintained, maybe I didn't choose my words carefully enough

Sadly, experience shows that a lot of other trades think what we do is easy and go on to do some bloody awful work because "It's only a few wires, what can possibly go wrong" I'm not tarring you with that brush by the way, I'm only telling you what we have all seen in the course of our work
 
Plus, if I went onto a carpentry forum saying "I've knocked a few nails in and therefore know what I'm doing so I'm building a new roof for someone. The jobs worth £X but how do you cut a birdsmouth" I would be given a hard time
 
Guitarist said:
Sorry to sound cynical, but we've heard it all before on here.
Guys come on here saying "I just want to get qualified enough so that I can work alongside an experienced electrician and I definitely won't be working on my own until I'm confident that I can do all the work to a high standard in a few years." A few weeks later, the same guys say "Just about to rewire a massive house from scratch and don't know how to go about it. Can you all help me please? Also, don't knock me, I have a wife and family to support!"
Sorry, but fed up of hearing it and also following behind these people.
Click to expand...

Hi Guitarist.

Are you saying it can't be done?

Where would you suggest one who can't get an NVQ because he's been victimized and overclocked because teenagers are preferred, would start at?

Just wiring a ring main? A simple spur perhaps? Or just a one way switch lighting circuit?

I have a brand new house which is about to be built from the ground up by a mate of mine to which he was happy enough to ask me if I'd do it as he believes in me.

Off-course I gladly said yes and I'll be doing it for free just to built up my portfolio and for the experience.

I am currently with adds in Sains, Tescos, Asda and all local small convenience stores offering my services "for free" for any local company that want's an extra pair of hands on whatever spare time I have got just for the experience.

Now going back to my mate's house, the only thing I have put forward and he's well aware is that he will need to find someone that can and will oversee all at whatever stages he/she decides need seeing. After all once there's plaster up you cannot see what's behind it can you? And I am quite happy to this for the experience and I am pretty much sure an experience will be and most definitely, I am under no illusions, that this will not be THE CLASSROOM and will be a definite learning curve.

I know times have changed but I wanted to be a carpenter back where I come from (AZORES) and a carpenter I was at the age of 16. I started in this local workshop just helping and learning and by the age of 16 I was handed over my first full house to which I ha to measure all indoors and outdoors doors and windows, blinds the lot. I was trusted at that early age and I succeed. Certificates? I had one, the best one really, my boss trusted myself and my work. And one must be proud of it, I have been there, to where I grownup and have taken my wife, then girlfriend, to this street where she has noticed a door and she new that I done that as I still have a picture of it on my computer. That was my first main outside entrance door in mahogany. It's still there after 20 years.

Again certificates? My father left school when he was a kid at the age of 10 having done just year 4. He went on to work on the building industry. At the age of 20 he was building houses under his own name. Not only that, he would do the plumbing, the electrics, the sewerage system and he had no certificates. But that was then.

In today's society we are all consider to be to damn stupid? that we need certificates for everything! Sadly it's the world we live in.

On my level 2 just finished I had to be taught how to safely erect a ladder!!! If my dad was still about he would go mental with this. What has happened to common sense?

Maybe certificates is another way to increase public spending and a way I don't know to pay for a few more tutors and keep them in a job?

Once I achieve my qualifications yes, I will be a qualified electrician, experienced? Absolutely not but this is what has been laid ahead of us unfortunately.

To those of you that mentioned crash courses, I would absolutely run a mile from these. There is no way all that I have done in this level 2 that could possibly be crammed in a two or even a month crash course. Not to mentioned that these courses are a rip off as well.

Regards,
Albert
 
albertc30 said:
Shagbite;

Correct me if I am wrong but to be competent you still need to be given the chance to do some real life work. Without it, I doubt anyone will ever be competent at any industry.
Click to expand...


yes, you need real life work - that goes without saying.




Definitions (Part 2)


„ Competent Person


„ A person who possesses sufficient technical
knowledge and experience for the nature of
the electrical work undertaken and is able at
all times to prevent danger, and where
appropriate, injury, to themselves and others


„ Note: the definition of ‘Competent person’ in BS7671 2008 is
exactly the same as regulation 16 of the Electricity at Work
Regulations 1989 (EAWR 1989)
 
trev said:
That's my point mate. I've got 2 good mates who are joiners who I've picked a load up from over the years but I wouldn't dream of taking on anything like that. I honestly believe in the old horses for courses thing. You have your area of expertise, we have ours and I think that that level of demarcation should be maintained, maybe I didn't choose my words carefully enough

Sadly, experience shows that a lot of other trades think what we do is easy and go on to do some bloody awful work because "It's only a few wires, what can possibly go wrong" I'm not tarring you with that brush by the way, I'm only telling you what we have all seen in the course of our work
Click to expand...

Ok .. you probably know that I'm retired and for quite a while I'vce been helping my builder mate with a house that he's rebuilt for himself.

He was originally going to do EVERYTHING himself - including the electrics - because "Aahh kanaa hoo t' dey it an' aave got me tools". Well, his tools consist of a pair of side cutters and a couple of screwdrivers that have seen better days, a £7-99 multimeter from Maplins that he doesn't know how to use or what it's for and a Martindale plug-in tester with 3 neon lights that tell him the socket's ok.

Anyway, I ended-up doing it for several reasons, but after the first fix he was itching to "help" with the second fix, so I let him fit a couple of sockets. Then I inspected them. BOTH had slack terminal screws (because of his knackered screwdriver) and one had a polarity reversal because he says "it doesn't matter - it still grafts" (works)

This is a bloke who has been doing leccy work in his customers' houses (extra sockets etc.) while there fitting new windows etc. for them !!

The job is now finished (just) and I was showing him the testing bit with my MFT and it was completely over his head, BUT he's now come to accept and admit that it's a Hell of a lot more involved that he thought for a good few years, and now realises just how dangerous his work has been. So, hopefully there's a lesson learned there.

I've done all the heating/plumbing/gas and alarm work too (Yes, I'm capable, competent and qualified) and he wanted to get involved in that too - until I told him a few facts of life regarding gas work & regs ..... ;)
 
shagbite said:
you've no chance of getting an apprenticeship at your age.

get in touch with XS training - they've got some nvq places left. you'll find their details in the list of sponsors on this site.


edit: tornado trev beat me to it!!
Click to expand...
not fair shag mate....
i would happily take on an older person....put em through....

no arsin about.

no textin all day.

a more mature mind that is able to take in info

it just gets better n better.....
 
Geordie Spark said:
Ok ..
you probably know that I'm retired
Click to expand...
and for quite a while I'vce been helping my builder mate with a house that he's rebuilt for himself.

He was originally going to do EVERYTHING himself - including the electrics - because "Aahh kanaa hoo t' dey it an' aave got me tools". Well, his tools consist of a pair of side cutters and a couple of screwdrivers that have seen better days, a £7-99 multimeter from Maplins that he doesn't know how to use or what it's for and a Martindale plug-in tester with 3 neon lights that tell him the socket's ok.

Anyway, I ended-up doing it for several reasons, but after the first fix he was itching to "help" with the second fix, so I let him fit a couple of sockets. Then I inspected them. BOTH had slack terminal screws (because of his knackered screwdriver) and one had a polarity reversal because he says "it doesn't matter - it still grafts" (works)

This is a bloke who has been doing leccy work in his customers' houses (extra sockets etc.) while there fitting new windows etc. for them !!

The job is now finished (just) and I was showing him the testing bit with my MFT and it was completely over his head, BUT he's now come to accept and admit that it's a Hell of a lot more involved that he thought for a good few years, and now realises just how dangerous his work has been. So, hopefully there's a lesson learned there.

I've done all the heating/plumbing/gas and alarm work too (Yes, I'm capable, competent and qualified) and he wanted to get involved in that too - until I told him a few facts of life regarding gas work & regs ..... ;)
Click to expand...


i can smell the formaldehyde from here.
 
GLENNSPARK said:
not fair shag mate....
i would happily take on an older person....put em through....

no arsin about.

no textin all day.

a more mature mind that is able to take in info

it just gets better n better.....
Click to expand...

I agree entirely.

The best blokes I had working for me were 40+ years old Ex-shipyard lads.

This job I've been doing for my builder mate that I keep banging on about had his 23 year old Son working on it and he was a complete nightmare - radio on full blast and the mobile phone permanently wedged between his shoulder and ear while he was trying to work only using one hand, and the phone calls were lasting literally more than an hour!

The bloke was a total waste of time and whenever he came to me to ask if I wanted any help I would stick the brush in his hand. It was completely pointless giving him anything else to do because he would never finish it. If he made a mistake, he would never admit it and always try to pass the buck.

I lent him my SDS to drill from the front of the house to the inside, When I went to check on him he had disappeared to make a phone call leaving my drill lying unattended in the front garden in full view of anyone passing who may fancy it for themselves.

When I -------ed him , he tried to spin it back and somehow make it MY fault !!!
 
shagbite said:
i can smell the formaldehyde from here.
Click to expand...


clones.gif........
 
GLENNSPARK said:
not fair shag mate....
i would happily take on an older person....put em through....

no arsin about.

no textin all day.

a more mature mind that is able to take in info

it just gets better n better.....
Click to expand...



you and me both kid.

why the government only gives apprenticeships to kids is beyond me. i know if i'd have come into this trade fresh out of school, i'd have bowed out before my first year was up. i was having too much fun partying.

but as an adult - well, i'd have grasped it with both hands and i would have appreciated every minute of it.
 
Geordie Spark said:
I agree entirely.

The best blokes I had working for me were 40+ years old Ex-shipyard lads.

This job I've been doing for my builder mate that I keep banging on about had his 23 year old Son working on it and he was a complete nightmare - radio on full blast and the mobile phone permanently wedged between his shoulder and ear while he was trying to work only using one hand, and the phone calls were lasting literally more than an hour!

The bloke was a total waste of time and whenever he came to me to ask if I wanted any help I would stick the brush in his hand. It was completely pointless giving him anything else to do because he would never finish it. If he made a mistake, he would never admit it and always try to pass the buck.

I lent him my SDS to drill from the front of the house to the inside, When I went to check on him he had disappeared to make a phone call leaving my drill lying unattended in the front garden in full view of anyone passing who may fancy it for themselves.

When I -------ed him , he tried to spin it back and somehow make it MY fault !!!
Click to expand...
i know the feeling.....
when you dont want to turn round and look caus you know the boy is on his phone....
its like a lad that comes out with us..
he`s a lovely lad is Rory.....but if he isn`t on his phone texting for more than 2 mins its a miracle...
i even witnessed the lad trying to pull rods through with one hand....whilst attempting to text with the other this one time....told him to put the phone down and pay attention....which he did bless him....
but for christs sake...
 
GLENNSPARK said:
i know the feeling.....
when you dont want to turn round and look caus you know the boy is on his phone....
its like a lad that comes out with us..
he`s a lovely lad is Rory.....but if he isn`t on his phone texting for more than 2 mins its a miracle...
i even witnessed the lad trying to pull rods through with one hand....whilst attempting to text with the other this one time....told him to put the phone down and pay attention....which he did bless him....
but for christs sake...
Click to expand...

Seriously Glen, had this kid been employed by me he would have got one warning to leave his phone in his pocket and if he didn't comply I would have smashed in with a hammer - even if it was in his ear at the time!!
 
shagbite said:
you and me both kid.

why the government only gives apprenticeships to kids is beyond me. i know if i'd have come into this trade fresh out of school, i'd have bowed out before my first year was up. i was having too much fun partying.

but as an adult - well, i'd have grasped it with both hands and i would have appreciated every minute of it.
Click to expand...
well it were pubs n clubs with me....and everything that went with it...
i was a rite little shyt....
now, i didn`t start to grow up until about 22-24 ish...as you can tell its still in progress is that one....
its just this last year since i kicked the booze that i have finally settled down and started to get my life back....
 
Geordie Spark said:
Seriously Glen, had this kid been employed by me he would have got one warning to leave his phone in his pocket and if he didn't comply I would have smashed in with a hammer - even if it was in his ear at the time!!
Click to expand...
hmm...
he`s an amature boxer is Rory......but he`s a really nice lad....
he often asks me questions about this n that.....like (R1 R2) & Ze....as in when to use measured for formfilling and when a nominal is used.....stuff like that....allsorts really...
now, i like this as it shows a bit of gumption.....
 
GLENNSPARK said:
well it were pubs n clubs with me....and everything that went with it...
i was a rite little shyt....
now, i didn`t start to grow up until about 22-24 ish...as you can tell its still in progress is that one....
its just this last year since i kicked the booze that i have finally settled down and started to get my life back....
Click to expand...

When I was serving my apprenticeship which was 6 years long in engineering , I somehow managed to play in a band most nights ( average 25 nights per month) and work the Waltzer & Dodgems on the fairground (I remember Tidyboiler's family's rides coming to the Newcastle Town Moor long before I knew her) during the summer and STILL manage to get to work. Maybe that's why I'm so knackered now??
 
Geordie Spark said:
When I was serving my apprenticeship which was 6 years long in engineering , I somehow managed to play in a band most nights ( average 25 nights per month) and work the Waltzer & Dodgems on the fairground (I remember Tidyboiler's family's rides coming to the Newcastle Town Moor long before I knew her) during the summer and STILL manage to get to work. Maybe that's why I'm so knackered now??
Click to expand...

you weren't the one with the ponytail, hanging off the back of the dodgems, trying to cop-off with the schoolies were you?
 
shagbite said:
you weren't the one with the ponytail, hanging off the back of the dodgems, trying to cop-off with the schoolies were you?
Click to expand...

Nope .... I was the one with the greasy quiff, sideburns, black leather jacket T-shirt with the Stars & Stripes on the front, blue drainpipe jeans with skull & crossbones belt buckle and winkle picker boots, and when I wasn't hanging off the back of the dodgem cars, I was spinning the cars on the Waltzer.

I still have the jacket and boots.
 
Geordie Spark said:
When I was serving my apprenticeship which was 6 years long in engineering , I somehow managed to play in a band most nights ( average 25 nights per month) and work the Waltzer & Dodgems on the fairground (I remember Tidyboiler's family's rides coming to the Newcastle Town Moor long before I knew her) during the summer and STILL manage to get to work. Maybe that's why I'm so knackered now??
Click to expand...
lol...
funnily enough i used to live in a small village about 20 miles outside shrewsbury.....that was from 1990-1993 ish...there were some showmen that used to set up....it was more of a hilliday for David as he didn`t get any real money out of it...
David ran a dodgem track, some juveniles, various sideshows/amusements and a waltzer.....i used to work the waltzer....putting up and taking down, spinning cars and taking fares.....
it was all a good laugh.....
 
Geordie Spark said:
Ok .. you probably know that I'm retired and for quite a while I'vce been helping my builder mate with a house that he's rebuilt for himself.

He was originally going to do EVERYTHING himself - including the electrics - because "Aahh kanaa hoo t' dey it an' aave got me tools". Well, his tools consist of a pair of side cutters and a couple of screwdrivers that have seen better days, a £7-99 multimeter from Maplins that he doesn't know how to use or what it's for and a Martindale plug-in tester with 3 neon lights that tell him the socket's ok.

Anyway, I ended-up doing it for several reasons, but after the first fix he was itching to "help" with the second fix, so I let him fit a couple of sockets. Then I inspected them. BOTH had slack terminal screws (because of his knackered screwdriver) and one had a polarity reversal because he says "it doesn't matter - it still grafts" (works)

This is a bloke who has been doing leccy work in his customers' houses (extra sockets etc.) while there fitting new windows etc. for them !!

The job is now finished (just) and I was showing him the testing bit with my MFT and it was completely over his head, BUT he's now come to accept and admit that it's a Hell of a lot more involved that he thought for a good few years, and now realises just how dangerous his work has been. So, hopefully there's a lesson learned there.

I've done all the heating/plumbing/gas and alarm work too (Yes, I'm capable, competent and qualified) and he wanted to get involved in that too - until I told him a few facts of life regarding gas work & regs ..... ;)
Click to expand...

I for once can admit that until doing this level 2, thought the same. I have heard of a few TVs getting fried due to this exact same problem. This is why we have polarity tests.

But it still puzzles me as to why wire it the wrong way round when these are clearly marked? One would thought for a reason would you not?

I'll put this forward that a friend of mine, a so called electrician in Portugal Lisbon. I don't want to take his merit away but I must as England is NOT Portugal. There's a different set of rules and regulations.

I remember him mentioning to me seeing MCB's in CUs for sockets (he did not know the term ring main) with two 2.5mm wires in. He was baffled! Why two wires? Surely one is enough?

Having now done this level 2 I have explained to him the nature of the 2 x 2.5mm cables and the ring main. Luckily he always screw them back on. But in Portugal this simply does not happen. Only one cable and in sockets are connected in series end off. Hey but I understand now the logic in it.

Another so called electrician was to change the MCB for what I was told to be an independent socket that was powering this industrial fridge/freezer on this baker/pastry house as the MCB was constantly tripping. I was told by the owner (a friend) that he was to change this MCB to double it's capacity. This was before I even thought about doing my course but I immediately asked him what size cable do you have on that circuit? And I explained to him that he did not want to have an MCB that exceeded the capacity of the cable on the circuit as this could be catastrophic. He could burn the house down. He was asking for trouble. I caused enough worry for him to seek a qualified competent electrician who rectified the problem off-course at a cost.

This electrician had to go a few times over to inspect everything as on his first floor he had sockets catching fire. He had relied in the first so called Portuguese electrician that costed him peanuts only to later pay a capable person to make it right and oh boy it cost him dearly.

I was also under the illusion that there wasn't much about being an electrician. I now know differently and take my hat to all you experienced guys. I still have to disagree as to why the hell on earth does one need to study motors to become an electrician???? Magnetism, OK fare enough but motors?

Anyone capable of enlighten me on this one? Motors?

Cheers.

Albert
 
Geordie Spark said:
When I was serving my apprenticeship which was 6 years long in engineering , I somehow managed to play in a band most nights ( average 25 nights per month) and work the Waltzer & Dodgems on the fairground (I remember Tidyboiler's family's rides coming to the Newcastle Town Moor long before I knew her) during the summer and STILL manage to get to work. Maybe that's why I'm so knackered now??
Click to expand...

Well, after 50 odd years of that, who wouldn't be creamed.:beatnik:
 
albertc30 said:
I for once can admit that until doing this level 2, thought the same. I have heard of a few TVs getting fried due to this exact same problem. This is why we have polarity tests.

But it still puzzles me as to why wire it the wrong way round when these are clearly marked? One would thought for a reason would you not?

I'll put this forward that a friend of mine, a so called electrician in Portugal Lisbon. I don't want to take his merit away but I must as England is NOT Portugal. There's a different set of rules and regulations.

I remember him mentioning to me seeing MCB's in CUs for sockets (he did not know the term ring main) with two 2.5mm wires in. He was baffled! Why two wires? Surely one is enough?

Having now done this level 2 I have explained to him the nature of the 2 x 2.5mm cables and the ring main. Luckily he always screw them back on. But in Portugal this simply does not happen. Only one cable and in sockets are connected in series end off. Hey but I understand now the logic in it.

Another so called electrician was to change the MCB for what I was told to be an independent socket that was powering this industrial fridge/freezer on this baker/pastry house as the MCB was constantly tripping. I was told by the owner (a friend) that he was to change this MCB to double it's capacity. This was before I even thought about doing my course but I immediately asked him what size cable do you have on that circuit? And I explained to him that he did not want to have an MCB that exceeded the capacity of the cable on the circuit as this could be catastrophic. He could burn the house down. He was asking for trouble. I caused enough worry for him to seek a qualified competent electrician who rectified the problem off-course at a cost.

This electrician had to go a few times over to inspect everything as on his first floor he had sockets catching fire. He had relied in the first so called Portuguese electrician that costed him peanuts only to later pay a capable person to make it right and oh boy it cost him dearly.

I was also under the illusion that there wasn't much about being an electrician. I now know differently and take my hate to all you experienced guys. I still have to disagree as to why the hell on earth does one need to study motors to become an electrician???? Magnetism, OK fare enough but motors?

Anyone capable of enlighten me on this one? Motors?

Cheers.

Albert
Click to expand...
much of the rest of the world uses radial finals throughout....

well, he was right there then....as i wouldn`t recognise it either....for finals that is...
 
GLENNSPARK said:
much of the rest of the world uses radial finals throughout....

well, he was right there then....as i wouldn`t recognise it either....for finals that is...
Click to expand...

Aye, the house experts again.....RFC. Surely that would be taught to a 1st year apprentice/student
 
Geordie Spark said:
Nope .... I was the one with the greasy quiff, sideburns, black leather jacket T-shirt with the Stars & Stripes on the front, blue drainpipe jeans with skull & crossbones belt buckle and winkle picker boots, and when I wasn't hanging off the back of the dodgem cars, I was spinning the cars on the Waltzer.

I still have the jacket and boots.
Click to expand...


a bit like this?


tumblr_lutqynUyO41qbisceo1_400.jpg
 
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