What will the outcome be of my assessment?

[HappyHippyDad]

Hello all..

I expect my full rewire will be assessed this year by Stroma.

It has been done very well and neatly and ticks all the regulation boxes..... apart from socket/switches heights. These I have kept as existing, approx 1350mm for switches and 300mm for sockets.

I have rang Stroma and they have said that a full rewire needs to meet Part M requirements for these heights. I realise BS7671 553.1.6 doesn't give these heights but Part M does and if Stroma say it has to be then there's no arguing really. Also, even though the vast majority of threads say that a rewire does not need to meet part M heights I believe it does as Section 0, 0.2 says part M applies to new builds and also 'Material alterations' of existing dwellings.

Basically my question is 'could they possible make me change all the heights'? I can't believe they would as that's crazy, but just looking for reassurance. I expect it will go down as a note and be checked for the following year to make sure I have adhered to the heights?

 

[DPG]

Do the assessment on another job?

 

[Deleted account]

It's only relevant on new builds, however I offer to do to reg heights on full rewires if the customer wants that.

If they don't I don't.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Do the assessment on another job?

May well do that, but the rewire is beautiful!

 

[HappyHippyDad]

It's only relevant on new builds, however I offer to do to reg heights on full rewires if the customer wants that.

If they don't I don't.

It may only be relevant on new builds or it may not, that's been discussed many times. Stroma are assessing me and they say the heights need to meet part M.

 

[Deleted account]

It may only be relevant on new builds or it may not, that's been discussed many times. Stroma are assessing me and they say the heights need to meet part M.

Then they are wrong.

Sorry that doesn't help your situation.

Go with napit, nic or Elecsa. They may say it's ok.

 

[telectrix]

they're bloody wrong then. part Mvol. 1. section 1.18.....mention of socket and switch heights only applies where clients are "persons with limited reach."

 

[The Ghost]

If the client declines putting them at 450mm/1200mm height it is a departure, however the clients wishes overrule in this case. A note then would be made on the certificate that client wished the existing height to be retained (for instance) as the cost of moving them was prohibitive. Maybe you should discuss this with the client and explain the need to move them up 150mm and the cost and ascertain if that would meet their wishes? If not perhaps you should note it on the certificate.

 

[telectrix]

should not have to upset the customer. stroma are wrong and need a kick up the arse. i would complain strongly that you pay their wages, so they should be giving you good advice, not some trumped up rubbish that is just 1 person's (incorrect) belief.

 

[Octopus]

It may only be relevant on new builds or it may not, that's been discussed many times. Stroma are assessing me and they say the heights need to meet part M.

I would take the assessor to the site, on the day, making sure I had the latest copy of Part M, printed out with me ........... so when the assessor says the heights MUST comply with Part M, you can ask him to confirm where in the document - then hand it to him..........

We ALL know part M ONLY applies to new builds....................

 

[Octopus]

If the client declines putting them at 450mm/1200mm height it is a departure, however the clients wishes overrule in this case. A note then would be made on the certificate that client wished the existing height to be retained (for instance) as the cost of moving them was prohibitive. Maybe you should discuss this with the client and explain the need to move them up 150mm and the cost and ascertain if that would meet their wishes? If not perhaps you should note it on the certificate.

Not sure I agree with that.

 

[Andy78]

It may only be relevant on new builds or it may not, that's been discussed many times. Stroma are assessing me and they say the heights need to meet part M.

Argue your case. They are wrong. They tried telling me that external lighting was notifiable until I proved them wrong.

 

[telectrix]

quick glance through ...... Forum 6 - stroma 0

 

[Octopus]

So we can review :

Building work:

Regulation 4

b

(ii)

is the most relevant statement IMHO

And more to the point, we have the DCLG to blame for ALL these hopelessly worded documents ........... which I expect will be commented on during the Grenfell Enquiry

 

[Midwest]

I would suggest a rewire does not on its own, constitutes work as a material alteration. If the whole property was be altered or refurbished, then it would. For example, if the owner replaced all internal doors, would they have to now comply with Part M? Don't think so.

For work an existing property that do not comply, the work must comply with the applicable building regulations or the work must be no more unsatisfactory in relation to the requirements than before the work was carried out (precis Part M).

Thing is the Building regs, will refer you to seek advice as to what aspects apply from a relevant body, one of those is a scheme!

Its them you have to please. Have you had that guidance in writing or an email? If not, I would get that first. If you have, as already said, find another job for your assessment.

 

[Wilko]

On an existing building the owner has the option to retain existing heights, its just you aren't allowed to make it less compliant. As there is no change of use, no big extension etc to trigger thoughts of it being a new build I think you'll be fine on the day. If you're worried, perhaps ask the question on an email (explaining the job is wiring only) as these tend to get considered a bit more carefully.

 

[Strima]

I was under the impression the NIC could only assess to BS7671? As such socket heights complying to another standard cannot be assessed by them, that would be a job for LABC.

 

[polo1]

I was under the impression the NIC could only assess to BS7671? As such socket heights complying to another standard cannot be assessed by them, that would be a job for LABC.

The NICEIC certificate requires confirmation that you have met the relevant building standards applicable to the work you have carried out. So this covers things like openings in structural elements etc.
As for the op, I’m hoping he’s in the clear!

 

[Spoon]

I don't have a copy of Part M, but I was under the impression that the height of 450mm for sockets was only for New Builds

 

[plugsandsparks]

Well if you wanted to do the re-wire and use the existing backboxes and pull cables through without replastering, that sort of scuppers it. Its not sensible to demand new socket and switch heights on a re-wire.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Then they are wrong.

Sorry that doesn't help your situation.

Go with napit, nic or Elecsa. They may say it's ok.

they're bloody wrong then. part Mvol. 1. section 1.18.....mention of socket and switch heights only applies where clients are "persons with limited reach."

I would take the assessor to the site, on the day, making sure I had the latest copy of Part M, printed out with me ........... so when the assessor says the heights MUST comply with Part M, you can ask him to confirm where in the document - then hand it to him..........

We ALL know part M ONLY applies to new builds....................

Argue your case. They are wrong. They tried telling me that external lighting was notifiable until I proved them wrong.

So we can review :

Building work:

Regulation 4

b

(ii)

is the most relevant statement IMHO

And more to the point, we have the DCLG to blame for ALL these hopelessly worded documents ........... which I expect will be commented on during the Grenfell Enquiry

Part M, section 0, 0.2 says that part M refers to new dwellings AND dwellings undergoing material alteration.

I guess Stroma class a rewire as 'material alteration'. What exactly does material alteration mean?

 

[Spoon]

Part M, section 0, 0.2 says that part M refers to new dwellings AND dwellings undergoing material alteration

But if the section mentioning sockets heights states it is for 'new buildings' then then part about 'dwellings undergoing material alteration' does not apply to this part.

 

[Andy78]

Part M, section 0, 0.2 says that part M refers to new dwellings AND dwellings undergoing material alteration.

I guess Stroma class a rewire as 'material alteration'. What exactly does material alteration mean?

Material alteration is alteration of the building for purpose of use, or significant alteration such as a large extension, house being chopped into flats, or a bungalow being made into a 2 floor dwelling.

I would contact your labc to ask for help with this definition and maybe ask for something in writing to help with your assessment.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

But if the section mentioning sockets heights states it is for 'new buildings' then then part about 'dwellings undergoing material alteration' does not apply to this part.

I cant see that the section mentioning socket heights says anything about new buildings, so I don't think I can use that argument.

 

[westward10]

Forget it and make no mention of it. From the posts on this thread I see no one stating the heights apply on a rewire, it is unanimous.

 

[Nigel]

Part M, section 0, 0.2 says that part M refers to new dwellings AND dwellings undergoing material alteration.

I guess Stroma class a rewire as 'material alteration'. What exactly does material alteration mean?

'Material Alteration' means a building that is changing its use. For example a shop unit becoming a flat. Not changing the materials of the electrical installation.

 

[Nigel]

Part P and Part M are clear. New build only and on re-wires they can be positioned 'no worse' than they are currently.

 

[Midwest]

Part P and Part M are clear. New build only and on re-wires they can be positioned 'no worse' than they are currently.

Thats not quite true as I'm aware. The Documents apply to all building work, with some exemptions.

Part M would not apply to an alteration or extension to an existing dwelling. However, as I and others have already suggested a major refurbishment of a dwelling, e.g. completely renovated for example, requiring structural change, then Part M and others may be applied. There are 'limits on application'.

To say it applies only to new builds, is not quite correct IMO. Sorry if I'm being picky.

I think we are all agreed that in this instance a rewire does not constitute material alteration. But HHD will need to discuss this with his scheme. Its his assessment with them.

 

[Toneyz]

Part M, section 0, 0.2 says that part M refers to new dwellings AND dwellings undergoing material alteration.

I guess Stroma class a rewire as 'material alteration'. What exactly does material alteration mean?

When you totally gut the house, knock down walls, change the internal layout.

 

[Octopus]

When you totally gut the house, knock down walls, change the internal layout.

So where are the Buildings Regs definitions listed ?

It would be SO EASY for the DCLG to avoid all these issues

 

[Midwest]

So where are the Buildings Regs definitions listed ?

It would be SO EASY for the DCLG to avoid all these issues

Apparently somewhere material alteration (other than house to B&B e.g.) is defined; regulation 5. I've gone off to cook tea now. Can't be arsed anymore.

 

[Bob Geldoff1234]

I had my NIC assessment a month ago and took the inspector to a full rewire that I had done.No mention what so ever of switch heights or socket heights which I kept the same as existing.I am glad I'm not in Stroma,they sound to be a real pain in the ---.

 

[Toneyz]

So where are the Buildings Regs definitions listed ?

It would be SO EASY for the DCLG to avoid all these issues

I wasn't referring to a Building Regs list just my interpretation.

 

[johnduffell]

If you read part M carefully you will see what the applicability of the sockets is with respect to material alterations.

where M4(1) is the regulation dealing with premises where people with reduced mobility may visit.

Regarding "material alterations", it's self explanatory. Material meaning "has relevance to the compliance status" and alteration means "change made". So if you move a socket it's an alteration, if you keep it in the same place it isn't. So you can't move the socket down but you can move it up or keep in the same place.

Regarding "new dwellings" those would be either complete new build, or change of use e.g. from office or retail to domestic accomodation.

In summary - rewires/extensions - same or better. conversions from non domestic or complete rebuilds - fully compliant heights.

Hope that helps!

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Forget it and make no mention of it. From the posts on this thread I see no one stating the heights apply on a rewire, it is unanimous.

Thats pretty much what I've decided.
I'm going to use the rewire as its a god damn art work and they damn well better praise it rather than batter me for socket heights!

 

[westward10]

Let us know how you get on, good luck.

 

[Toneyz]

Is the assessor the same person that you have been in correspondence with at Stroma?

 

[Wilko]

...I'm going to use the rewire as its an art work and they better praise it ...

Forget the Assessor, you know whose opinion matters the most - pics please .

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Forget the Assessor, you know whose opinion matters the most - pics please .

I don't usually post pics as you know you'll get a battering as theres always something glaringly obvious that you've missed, but heh ho.... here goes .
Before (1)

After (1)

Before (2)

After (2)

Before (3)

After (4)

Always struggle to get the neutrals looking neat!

Ps.. I've written off to Stroma now, specifically mentioning 0.2 and 0.11 of Part M regarding 'material alterations' and the fact that a rewire isn't classed as a material alteration. I'll let you all know what the official response is.

 

[Octopus]

What the scams need to assess is compliance with BS 7671 , part p and whether sparks are aware of the other building regs ...

 

[Toneyz]

Well, what happens in the scenario a rewire where the customer does not want chasing of walls you are doing like for like rewire. If you had to do surface ie mini trunking you would be left with the old boxes at the old hights if you were to do Part M.

 

[7029 dave]

Scams making the rules up as they go nice. Anyway what nonsense about socket, switch heights on a rewire.

 

[Nigel]

Thats not quite true as I'm aware. The Documents apply to all building work, with some exemptions.

Part M would not apply to an alteration or extension to an existing dwelling. However, as I and others have already suggested a major refurbishment of a dwelling, e.g. completely renovated for example, requiring structural change, then Part M and others may be applied. There are 'limits on application'.

To say it applies only to new builds, is not quite correct IMO. Sorry if I'm being picky.

I think we are all agreed that in this instance a rewire does not constitute material alteration. But HHD will need to discuss this with his scheme. Its his assessment with them.

I just took it directly from the Part P document.

 

[Nigel]

Thats pretty much what I've decided.
I'm going to use the rewire as its a god damn art work and they damn well better praise it rather than batter me for socket heights!

No you should stand by your guns and school these people.

 

[JOURNEYMAN]

In recent years I've used several rewires for my annual assessments with Stroma now non of which were questioned over the socket and switch heights. The only times I've complied with Part M regarding socket and switch heights is on new builds and properties which have been gutted back to brick inside and likely to be used by disabled persons i.e. ground floor flats, bungalows etc. I shouldn't worry about it unless of course your assessor turns up in a wheelchair.

 

[Toneyz]

45 posts and nobody has posted about brown envelopes.

 

[telectrix]

45 posts and nobody has posted about brown envelopes.

maybe searching for brown envelopes that are between 450mm and 1200mm.

 

[Midwest]

One last thang, (as previously asked ) has this guidance come in an email etc, or was it verbal over the phone?

 

[Midwest]

I just took it directly from the Part P document.

I sorter stand corrected. The definition of material change (reg 5), gives 10 examples.

From the online Doc M;
Meaning of material change of use (reg 5), i) the building contains one room for residential purposes, contains a greater or lessor number of such rooms, than it previously did.
I think thats describing alteration or extension?

However, Requirements relating to material change of use (reg 6), does not list i), only change to hotels, institutions etc for application of M1 (access & use).

So give agree with you there.

But then the document bumbles around with not making it less compliant than it previously was or reduction, which I can't decipher! Which was my point really, that Doc M still can apply to an alteration or extension. I still agree that a rewire doesn't constitute a material change of use.

 

[Midwest]

I'll tried to up load that part of the doc, but the screen shot revealed personnel details . Gardeners weekly & knitting monthly.

This is better;