10 mm water bond ?

[BillyH]

I need to upgrade the bonding on a current installation but am having a problem locating exactly where to bond to. The consumer is in the cellar and so is the stop tap, however at some time in the past the pipe from the stop tap has been replaced with plastic, run across the wall and then disappears under a concrete floor. No one at the property knows where the platic ends and copper begins.All pipework throughout is copper except for the 3 mtrs from the incoming main.

Where would it be permissable to bond the 10 mm

 

[needasparks]

I normally bond at the first accessable place if its not possible to do so at the stop tap, In some places people dont have a tap and only one is under the path outside, Have done this many times and my inspecting engineer has been happy with it. As long as its location is labelled at the board and on cert. If you are lucky enough on installations where the plumber has run plastic everywhere i try to ask for a foot of copper after the tap to bond to.

 

[Welchyboy]

Is the suppliers side of the tap still in copper/lead or is this plastic too?

 

[Deleted member 9648]

I normally bond at the first accessable place if its not possible to do so at the stop tap, In some places people dont have a tap and only one is under the path outside, Have done this many times and my inspecting engineer has been happy with it. As long as its location is labelled at the board and on cert. If you are lucky enough on installations where the plumber has run plastic everywhere i try to ask for a foot of copper after the tap to bond to.

Why?...if it's all plastic there's nothing to bond.

The OP could test to establish whether the pipework even needs bonding...http://www.electriciansforums.net/e...ical-regulations/16558-extraneous-yes-no.html

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Belt and braces!

 

[needasparks]

Belt and braces!

Exactly. especially if is a mixture of copper and plastic.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Sometimes better to just do it. My assessor expects boiler pipework to be cross bonded whether I like it or not. Its an arguement thats been done many times onthis forum!


Doing it won't hurt i dont think, some may view it as a waste of time.

Me, i think it can be pleasing to look at if done with care and attention but then I'm a bit of a silly sod.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Exactly. especially if is a mixture of copper and plastic.

In the post I quoted it would only be a mixture of copper and plastic due to the 1ft bit after the stopcock!

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Sometimes better to just do it. My assessor expects boiler pipework to be cross bonded whether I like it or not. Its an arguement thats been done many times onthis forum!


Doing it won't hurt i dont think, some may view it as a waste of time.

Me, i think it can be pleasing to look at if done with care and attention but then I'm a bit of a silly sod.

No,it's not better just to do it because your assessor insists...no assessor can mark you down because you refuse to apply his personal preferences...he can only mark you down for not compying with the regs.

 

[needasparks]

In the post I quoted it would only be a mixture of copper and plastic due to the 1ft bit after the stopcock!

Yes fella, i got what you were saying and i know the reg but i'm with spartykus and just like to do it (if i can)

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Yes fella, i got what you were saying and i know the reg but i'm with spartykus and just like to do it (if i can)

Fair enough...presumably your customers are happy to pay for unnesessary work then...

 

[needasparks]

For a metre of 10mm its free. Dont get me wrong its no big issue and there are times on new build that I dont bother as no requirement its mainly on alterations where a new water supply has been brought in when it was lead etc and i know there is copper elsewhere. It then makes a good conversation with inspector if it gets pulled from the jobs iv'e done.

 

[BillyH]

Due to the consumer unit being in the cellar and all the decor throughout the property being of a high standard, not to mention every bodies favorite (laminate floor) i cannot see an easy way, without damage to wire a 10mm.If i could locate a cold feed pipe somewhere to wire to,and then test at various points of exposed pipework in the house, would that be acceptable?

 

[Welchyboy]

Is the suppliers side of the tap still in copper/lead or is this plastic too?​

 

[BillyH]

Is the suppliers side of the tap still in copper/lead or is this plastic too?​

Not sure, but if it was i cannot connect here because of the 3mts of plastic in between .Surely its the pipework within the property that needs earthing

 

[sambotc]

Am I correct in saying that if the incoming supply is copper then it would come under main equipotential bonding to a service, whereas if the supply is in plastic which then changes to copper inside the property, therefore unable to introduce a fault into the property, it comes under supplementery bonding which could then be classified as or not extraneous so could not actually be required?

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Not sure, but if it was i cannot connect here because of the 3mts of plastic in between .Surely its the pipework within the property that needs earthing

....You are getting your earthing and bonding mixed up,the pipework within the property does not need earthing....it is because it may be introducing the general mass of earth into the property that it needs bonding at the point of entry. Once within the property it doesnt matter whether it's earthed,bonded,plastic or copper....unless in a special location where supplementary bonding is required,which is a different thing altogether,but still nothing to do with 'earthing pipes'.

 

[Welchyboy]

....You are getting your earthing and bonding mixed up,the pipework within the property does not need earthing....it is because it may be introducing the general mass of earth into the property that it needs bonding at the point of entry. Once within the property it doesnt matter whether it's earthed,bonded,plastic or copper....unless in a special location where supplementary bonding is required,which is a different thing altogether,but still nothing to do with 'earthing pipes'.

^^^^^^^exactly my point, what you need to be concerned about is bonding any metalwork/pipework that has the potential of bringing in a different earth potential into the house, ie the suppliers side of the water main if it is copper/lead, i know we are taught to bond onto the side of the consumer but with this instance i would personally bond to the side of the supplier!

Note the cert, job Done!

by bonding the copper in the house after the pvc pipework you are totally missing the point of main protective bonding and its purpose

if you really like, belt and braces then bond to both sides!

 

[malcolmsanford]

Yes fella, i got what you were saying and i know the reg but i'm with spartykus and just like to do it (if i can)

I have to admit I'm a little concerned with that. By bonding a piece of metal that is not an extraneous conductive part, you would have a greater chance of making the installation less safe than safe.

As there is a good chance in the case of a fault you could introduce a fault condition on that piece of metal, in other words making it a protective conductor.

 

[grimysparks80]

I have to admit I'm a little concerned with that. By bonding a piece of metal that is not an extraneous conductive part, you would have a greater chance of making the installation less safe than safe.

As there is a good chance in the case of a fault you could introduce a fault condition on that piece of metal, in other words making it a protective conductor.

Ive been arguing this point with warm front inspectors for years. They dont care if its plastic incoming. they still want ME bonding on the first avilable bit of copper.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Ive been arguing this point with warm front inspectors for years. They dont care if its plastic incoming. they still want ME bonding on the first avilable bit of copper.

Have you advised them about how you can prove if it is/or isn't an extraneous conductive part?

Often even sometimes though the water supply in the house is plastic in places or even a plastic main incomer, if there is copper pipe to gas and the water supply to the boiler is also copper yes some parts of the installation could via the gas pipe be extraneous conductive parts.

A quick and easy test is IR with a wander lead on the main MET to the metal in question and if you have >22 KΩ then it is not an extraneous conductive part and no need for supplementary bonding.

I know the gas regulations still advise cross bonding and so perhaps they are using this as a belt and braces scenario, until something goes wrong that is