230v smokes interlinked through multiple shops

[Jdsparky]

Hi, I have a regular customer who owns a row of shops with flats above, he has a weird setup as regards fire protection, the two ends have 24v fire alarm systems that cover a couple of shops and flats directly above, but the middle section someone has put in 230v smokes interlinked through a couple of shops but fed from one of the flats above, which also interlinked through next flat as well. So no local isolation, and also dangerous when you think you have turned everything off when switching off main switch, but to find its still live and no way of knowing where to turn it off as a normal person.

He wants a cert doing for the council, I've told him its dangerous but he's had it passed off for years before and nobody has picked this up before which is ridiculous.
It's not much use to give an unsatisfactory cert, I've said to him he should really have a 24v system if it needs to be linked through the shops and flats, like the others, which he needs to ask council/fire officer I suppose what they want.

what would you do? I don't want my name anywhere near this setup as it is, does anyone know any specific regs this breaks, I've had a quick look through but can't see any that really apply as of yet.
thanks.

 

[telectrix]

if each flat has it's own CU, then the main switch of that CU ( or a local isolator) must isolate ALL low voltage circuits in that flat. if not, then it's a code C2 or even a C1.

 

[onions1066]

Agree with tel, code 2.

 

[telectrix]

also, domestic smokes should never be fitted in commercial premises. a proper fire alarm system or systems in the shops, with sounders in the flats above.

 

[Jdsparky]

The point he makes is if one goes off he wants the other parts go off, and also he doesn't want them to be able to turn them off if they start beeping or false alarms in the shops, hence why it's fed from flat above. Each part of building has its own consumer unit, so I suppose depending on requirements he could have them 230v wired and interlinked only in each section on the lighting circuit which I also suggested depending on what the council say they want in place, but would be best to have dedicated system obviously,
any reg numbers for the coding? Thanks.

 

[telectrix]

how about 537.1.4 and 537.1.6

 

[Darkwood]

A look at the relevant fire BS regulations will identify the type of building with its use and the recommended fire safety system it requires, there are a lot of other things to consider here regarding dwellings over shops and a liaison with the local fire brigade should go without saying ...as goes the cert' whether a FIRE CERT or EICR you must put your concerns and say whether the install is deemed unsatisfactory, explain to him the system fitted falls short of the required standards for a fire system in a building of such use if this is your findings and you cant possibly pass it as any injury or death will lay at your feet for passing it if say a fire was to happen and the nature of its design led to a anyone been injured or killed.

 

[Jdsparky]

I was looking in that section of regs, but couldn't see that or anything else specific enough, but yes I suppose that will do for a start lol

 

[Wiresandthings]

If he is insistent on mains smokes other than a proper system, the following solution could help i think

Each CU zone have its own circuit of 230v interlinked smokes with one base as a radio base, link all radio bases together wirelessly and i think the system will work as it does now, doesn't stop people isolating their part though

Ive never tried this set up but I'm sure it should work, anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong

 

[Jdsparky]

A look at the relevant fire BS regulations will identify the type of building with its use and the recommended fire safety system it requires, there are a lot of other things to consider here regarding dwellings over shops and a liaison with the local fire brigade should go without saying ...as goes the cert' whether a FIRE CERT or EICR you must put your concerns and say whether the install is deemed unsatisfactory, explain to him the system fitted falls short of the required standards for a fire system in a building of such use if this is your findings and you cant possibly pass it as any injury or death will lay at your feet for passing it if say a fire was to happen and the nature of its design led to a anyone been injured or killed.

I said to him about if anyone in future were to change a head and turned everything off then get killed by electric shock, if my name is next to it, I will be in the brown stuff and its not worth it.

 

[Jdsparky]

If he is insistent on mains smokes other than a proper system, the following solution could help i think

Each CU zone have its own circuit of 230v interlinked smokes with one base as a radio base, link all radio bases together wirelessly and i think the system will work as it does now, doesn't stop people isolating their part though

Ive never tried this set up but I'm sure it should work, anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong

Good solution, but still think it should be done the right way for future proofing when someone replaces with a normal smoke/heat detector.

 

[Darkwood]

You have a Commercial / Residential property here which will require a specific level of protection while avoiding nuisance alarms, you have private areas as well as public areas and also to consider is the fire protected rating of the building; its likely this building will require separated systems but without knowing a lot more its hard to say what is required so members should refrain from shooting in the dark here without posting relevant regulations.

Ive just done some student flats that have a 230v wired independent system in each flat and a conventional fire system in the communal areas.... a fire in any flat will not alert the rest of the complex unless the smokes in the communal areas are activated or a call point is operated.

 

[Jdsparky]

You have a Commercial / Residential property here which will require a specific level of protection while avoiding nuisance alarms, you have private areas as well as public areas and also to consider is the fire protected rating of the building; its likely this building will require separated systems but without knowing a lot more its hard to say what is required so members should refrain from shooting in the dark here without posting relevant regulations.

Ive just done some student flats that have a 230v wired independent system in each flat and a conventional fire system in the communal areas.... a fire in any flat will not alert the rest of the complex unless the smokes in the communal areas are activated or a call point is operated.

I have also done systems like that as well, there is no communal areas, they're all separate entry apart from flats which as you can imagine go up a flight of stairs then two separate doors.

 

[Wiresandthings]

I have to admit i prob wouldn't consider doing it the way i suggested, a proper spec 24v system is the way to go, the last one i did was a shop with flat above, flat was existing and shop was being refitted, i was going for a sounder in flat linked to system in shop, fire officer said that wasn't necessary, based on that you maybe be to get away with 230v smokes independently fed in each flat with a 24v system in each shop

 

[Jdsparky]

I will have to see what fire officer has to say for himself then

 

[Darkwood]

This been a commercial and domestic set-up combined with communal areas too (stairwells) i cant comment without a lot more info and you need to consult the relevant BS fire regulations for combined commercial and domestic use buildings, the landlord would also need to relay all the structural fire precautions within the building as this too reflect on the system required.

 

[tazz]

If each building is totally seperated, with the own entrance, then each building must be treated seperatly....A local Authority report/assessment will determan if each system must be interlinked. If they are commercial shops, then a full part 1 system will be required. To obtain a licence as a landord...the assessment must have been conducted..???

 

[Jdsparky]

The shops are food businesses so I presume greater fire risk than most, I'm not sure about the past although he has said it has been passed and certificated for a few years previous, I would also think there has been an initial assessment when he first acquired the properties but not sure so will ask him about it tomorrow.
and yes each part is separate apart from entrance to staircase for two flats.

 

[tazz]

Suggest getting in local authority to clarify....as i can only seeing on way for this, a control panel in each building covering shop and flats, reason being this is not communial domestic premises, the flats are over commercial buildings giving high risk.
Each panel may also be asked to Bi-linked between buildings. This is what i would put forward, but this my own opinion