Advice on V Phase Voltage Optimisation Units

[jenny8678]

Hi I am looking for some advice and guidance with regards to the V Phase Voltage Optimisation Unit which I have been advised to have installed at my property.
Could anyone give me their views on this product and if it is worth spending the money as an investment ?
I have found one on trades supermarket vphase vx1 and would appreciate it if anyone could advise me of anywhere cheaper ?
Thanks for your help
Jenny

 

[poppypiesdad]

Advised on what grounds ? and thats about right for price

JAmie

 

[malcolmsanford]

Honestly Jenny in a domestic installation I don't think they are worth the material they use to make them with.

They normally have a cutout on any appliance over 20amp in other words the high energy using appliances such as electric showers, cookers etc will just literally turn these units off. Also most smaller appliances such as an Iron or a kettle will take proportionally longer to work on a lower voltage.

They can be useful used as a surge protection device to protect sensitive equipment such as computers, but at 180 pounds there are a lot cheaper ways to protect your equipment.

My advice would be not to get it

 

[Deleted member 19807]

personaly i would not bother,

here is a short which report about them

10 eco products you don't need - Energy saving products - Which? Energy

 

[Des 56]

In case you are naive enough to throw your money at such suspect gimmicks
Here are a few opinions made recently on this forum
http://www.electriciansforums.net/e...41981-anyone-fitted-one-these.html#post365225

 

[spark 68]

My advice would be not to get it

Exactly, what you achieve from these is anyones guess ?

As most of the power using stuff is thermostatically controlled (kettles etc.) it just means they are on for longer!, so no savings here, and any electronic equipment would just pull more current to achieve the same output (as in voltage wrt electronic ballasts etc.) you cannot break the laws of physics.

As they won't work above 20A, whats the point ?

 

[Rockingit]

They can be useful used as a surge protection device to protect sensitive equipment such as computers, but at 180 pounds there are a lot cheaper ways to protect your equipment.

I actually rang and asked VPhase about this a few months ago, and they themselves said that the uniits do not respond quickly enough to protect against surge.

Jenny - spend the money on some decent quality led lights instead, free cheese comes on mousetraps!!

 

[malcolmsanford]

I actually rang and asked VPhase about this a few months ago, and they themselves said that the uniits do not respond quickly enough to protect against surge.

Jenny - spend the money on some decent quality led lights instead, free cheese comes on mousetraps!!

Cheers Rockingit I never knew that, so it is even more useless than I thought

 

[MarkieSparkie]

Hi Jenny, They are about as useful as a Christmas cracker novelty toy. The company's energy saving claims are highly dubious, not much better than a cheap magic act with smoke and mirrors.

 

[vphase]

We're obviously keen to address misconceptions and incorrect statements about our product when we see it being discussed on forums such as this, so I'll hopefully be able to address the points that have been raised in a clear and concise manner.

Firstly, reference is made to electric cookers and showers causing the unit to go into bypass. In actual fact, the installation instructions (available on the VPhase web site HERE), specifies that resistive heating circuits should be excluded from being optimised as no savings can be made on these types of circuits. Therefore, electric cookers, showers and immersion heaters should not be optimised by VPhase. A further misconception related to this, is that these appliances account for the largest energy use in a property, but research carried out by DECC (July 2010) indicated that over 67% of a home's electrical consumption is typically from lighting and appliances - and these are things that VPhase voltage optimisation can and does make savings on. Whilst no savings can be made on irons or kettles that are plugged into optimised ring main circuits, and they will have to be on slightly longer to reach the desired temperature, they also won't lose money or cost more to operate.

The VPhase does not include full surge protection that can protect the home from transient surges and spikes, but as it stabilises the output voltage, it does help reduce the impact of fluctuating voltage supply.

The Which? article is something that is brought up from time to time - and an issue that we have responded to. A full response is available HERE. In short, the Which? report did not conduct a thorough assessment of the product in its intended use and also drew unfair comparisons. For example, one of the principle reasons it suggested that the VPhase should be avoided was because the payback period (at up to 5 years) was too lengthy; yet in the same article, they also recommend Double Glazing, with a payback period typically over 10 years and a much higher capital outlay to the homeowner. VPhase has always been up front about the expected payback period (3 - 5 years), although with the continuing increases in electricity prices, this is reducing all of the time.

VPhase has gone to great lengths to test its product and have the results independently assessed and published. It has undertaken trials with Ofgem, British Gas, SSE and many social housing associations throughout the UK. Where possible, these results have been published on the VPhase web site. The savings claims have been independently assessed and demonstrated typical energy savings of up to 12%.

Our technical training video is scheduled for release on the 1st December. It includes a practical/technical installation guide and a Q&A session and will be available through our YouTube channel HERE. It should address many of the questions and concerns that are raised by electrical installers.

 

[i=p/u]

thank you vpahse for replying to a subject that comes up a lot,,,, is there a 3 phase version out yet, as this is where you would get 20A of lighting??? and can see considerable savings here and maybe a possible savings..

people dont see electrics as necesity in keeping upto date as doesnt do that much for there sight of hard earned cash to be spent on.. where if you get new windows , they go oo look at my new windows.. you get my drift...

also if you look at one way like of myself where im 10-15 pounds a week electricty thats £1.20-£1.50 a week saving if you can get top end out of your device.....

for nearly a £300 device+ installed

 

[vphase]

We have actually published some information on the VPhase web site about 3 phase supplies and where/how VPhase can work with this. You can view the info HERE.

In short, the answer is that VPhase don't have a 3 phase version available, but the current VPhase can work with 3 phase supplies as long as the installer is selective over the circuits being optimised.

 

[Big n Daft]

We're obviously keen to address misconceptions and incorrect statements about our product when we see it being discussed on forums such as this, so I'll hopefully be able to address the points that have been raised in a clear and concise manner.

Firstly, reference is made to electric cookers and showers causing the unit to go into bypass. In actual fact, the installation instructions (available on the VPhase web site HERE), specifies that resistive heating circuits should be excluded from being optimised as no savings can be made on these types of circuits. Therefore, electric cookers, showers and immersion heaters should not be optimised by VPhase. A further misconception related to this, is that these appliances account for the largest energy use in a property, but research carried out by DECC (July 2010) indicated that over 67% of a home's electrical consumption is typically from lighting and appliances - and these are things that VPhase voltage optimisation can and does make savings on. Whilst no savings can be made on irons or kettles that are plugged into optimised ring main circuits, and they will have to be on slightly longer to reach the desired temperature, they also won't lose money or cost more to operate.

The VPhase does not include full surge protection that can protect the home from transient surges and spikes, but as it stabilises the output voltage, it does help reduce the impact of fluctuating voltage supply.

The Which? article is something that is brought up from time to time - and an issue that we have responded to. A full response is available HERE. In short, the Which? report did not conduct a thorough assessment of the product in its intended use and also drew unfair comparisons. For example, one of the principle reasons it suggested that the VPhase should be avoided was because the payback period (at up to 5 years) was too lengthy; yet in the same article, they also recommend Double Glazing, with a payback period typically over 10 years and a much higher capital outlay to the homeowner. VPhase has always been up front about the expected payback period (3 - 5 years), although with the continuing increases in electricity prices, this is reducing all of the time.

VPhase has gone to great lengths to test its product and have the results independently assessed and published. It has undertaken trials with Ofgem, British Gas, SSE and many social housing associations throughout the UK. Where possible, these results have been published on the VPhase web site. The savings claims have been independently assessed and demonstrated typical energy savings of up to 12%.

Our technical training video is scheduled for release on the 1st December. It includes a practical/technical installation guide and a Q&A session and will be available through our YouTube channel HERE. It should address many of the questions and concerns that are raised by electrical installers.

Jolly good then, all is rosey in the garden.
I attended one of your "training days". I was thoroughly unimpressed by the load of over complicated useless tosh that was on offer.
Voltage regulation has been around for donkeys years and its not installed in domestic dwellings becuase it doesnt work. This has now all changed due to the lets save some cash green energy drive. What this has done is open up a whole new market for the sharper ones amongst us to make money out of those less blessed.
Ask yourself this Jenny, how many on here have said "what a good idea". None apart from the bloke selling it, nuff said.

 

[i=p/u]

what about voltage drop for circuits that have been designed to the end limits???? im only newbie so dont go ya dopey her...

 

[malcolmsanford]

I'm still not sure how having a 3kw kettle working for longer will actually not cost you more, when we use KwH units in the UK.

Also not sure how much damage or lessening the lifespan of a resistive load at a lower voltage that it was designed for will do to that appliance, such as an iron or kettle. Most elements still on the UK market are rated for 240 volts, and by dropping it's efficiency by nearly 10% is not doing it much good.

Finally with the advent of LED lighting becoming more prevalent in the domestic market, it will be interesting to see how much these will out perform the savings that cna be made by using this equipment.

 

[Des 56]

Jolly good then, all is rosey in the garden.
I attended one of your "training days". I was thoroughly unimpressed by the load of over complicated useless tosh that was on offer.
Voltage regulation has been around for donkeys years and its not installed in domestic dwellings becuase it doesnt work. This has now all changed due to the lets save some cash green energy drive. What this has done is open up a whole new market for the sharper ones amongst us to make money out of those less blessed.
Ask yourself this Jenny, how many on here have said "what a good idea". None apart from the bloke selling it, nuff said.

You cant get it more to the point than the above post

The visit by the V phase rep is a necessary response to the glut of negative comments being made,by the way, they are informed comments that cast aside spin and over optimistic claims by the makers

The unimfored and some in our industry, who see this as opportunity for easy money, will persuade you of its value
You have had enough information to make an informed decision yourself

Remember the electricians answering your question have done so with no self gain and no axe to grind, as the motive for the replies

 

[Knobhead]

What strikes me is, in the main the people on this board are electricians. Non seem to advocate fitting these units even though there is money to be made installing them.
It shows (to me) there is honesty amongst our members.

 

[Big n Daft]

So we all agree, bar one.
Bar, you say, are they open????

 

[UNG]

Jolly good then, all is rosey in the garden.
I attended one of your "training days". I was thoroughly unimpressed by the load of over complicated useless tosh that was on offer.
Voltage regulation has been around for donkeys years and its not installed in domestic dwellings becuase it doesnt work. This has now all changed due to the lets save some cash green energy drive. What this has done is open up a whole new market for the sharper ones amongst us to make money out of those less blessed.
Ask yourself this Jenny, how many on here have said "what a good idea". None apart from the bloke selling it, nuff said.

Was this training to install it or sell it

If this is so good why are the utility companies not pushing it

The statement from vphase says it all

VPhase has gone to great lengths to test its product and have the results independently assessed and published. It has undertaken trials with Ofgem, British Gas, SSE and many social housing associations throughout the UK. Where possible, these results have been published on the VPhase web site. The savings claims have been independently assessed and demonstrated typical energy savings of up to 12%.

There appears to be no value in these tests are they do not appear to have been conducted under like for like laboratory conditions and to "pass" the results to a third party for verification could ruin someones credibility. Do people live the same lifestyle everyday of every week of every year in order to have any meaning there would have to be exact pre and post vphase installation tests to be of any worth


I find this quite a claim without any substance

Quote from vphase website
One digital cordless phone showed an extraordinary saving of 44%

How many would be taken in by it

I cannot find any thing on the vphase site that would convince me to use or recommend this product as no matter how I twist the Power Equation I still come out with the same result, so unless domestic properties now need power factor correction due to high inductive or capacitive loads and that is what it provides I can't actually see what this device does as reducing the voltage only increases current or has Ohms law had a recent amendment in line with the regs

 

[Des 56]

I notice that "Jenny" came on here and asked a one off question with a link to the V-phase, the rep came on later with a rebuke to negative comments
Is it just me or was the thread an attempt to use the forum for publicity

Given there has been no response from the original poster

 

[malcolmsanford]

I notice that "Jenny" came on here and asked a one off question with a link to the V-phase, the rep came on later with a rebuke to negative comments
Is it just me or was the thread an attempt to use the forum for publicity

Given there has been no response from the original poster

Ohhhhhhhhhh harsh Des very harsh ...................................but most likely true, think though it may have backed fired a little

 

[UNG]

Ohhhhhhhhhh harsh Des very harsh ...................................but most likely true, think though it may have backed fired a little

Got to agree the balls in their court now to try and convince us otherwise

 

[malcolmsanford]

Well don't think they could do that to be honest yours, Des and big n daft posts sort of like shot them down in flames.

 

[Rockingit]

I looked at these units from a commercial perspective some time ago, then just decided I couldn't honestly justify recommending them to customers.

As for why the utilities aren't pushing them, though - that's an easy one. Why would they want you to buy less of their product?

 

[UNG]

As for why the utilities aren't pushing them, though - that's an easy one. Why would they want you to buy less of their product?

They put enough money into cheap insulation at that big shed to cut bills down and smart meters to see how much you are using so you cut down and some were involved in the vphase trials.

 

[Knobhead]

If it was an advertising ploy it was good subliminal advertising. Up until our sceptics got a hold on it.
There’s only one way to save power in reality

View attachment 8946

 

[vphase]

Unfortunately, there are always going to be sceptics about our product and seemingly despite the growing body of evidence, people that refuse to accept that a proven technology can make savings when used for its intended purpose. We are not trying to hijack the board for publicity purposes, but will defend our product where possible and resources permit.

To specifically answer the technical question asked about voltage drop: voltage drop is quoted in BS7671, page 358. The VPhase output voltage is 220volts. Working on the percentages allowed, the absolute maximum voltage drop would be for other use circuits at 5%. Therefore the minimum voltage would be 209volts. As the CENELEC guide issues a range of 230volts +/- 10% the range of voltage is 207volts to 253volts. Therefore at worst case percentage volt drop the range falls within the CENELEC range of applied voltages.

If there are any circuits that there are concerns over a non-compliance with voltage drop exceeding existing wiring then as the installation electrician on site they would assess the requirements and if not suitable, simply leave the circuit supplied on the non-optimised side of a consumer unit.

In terms of where VPhase voltage optimisation fits in with other energy saving technologies, information widely available elsewhere (but collated on the VPhase web site HERE), illustrates that after home insulation, voltage optimisation is the next most effective thing that can be done in the home in terms of "£ saved per £ spent". Smart meters are being rolled out nationally by all of the utilities as per the Government's plans, but these require a change in consumer lifestyle and behaviour. VPhase voltage optimisation devices reduce energy consumption without requiring any further interaction from the consumer.

 

[Deleted member 19807]

The savings claims have been independently assessed and demonstrated typical energy savings of up to 12%.

Its this sort of claim that puts me off,

Who assesed it? and what was their brief for the assesment?

"typical energy saving of up to 12%" so what dose that mean? how many properties were in this test group what type of properties were they what was the test period and time of year and what was the average saving?

 

[vphase]

Please refer to one of our announcements regarding the trials which was published as a Regulatory News Announcement on the London Stock Exchange (HERE), which gives more information about the trial properties that were used. The trials have resulted in a range of savings (between 6% and 12%, ie up to 12%) depending on individual properties, energy use in those properties and the testing methodology used. This isn't marketing promotion speak either - these are facts.

There is also additional information on the VPhase web site about other trials that have been undertaken, including the Great Places Housing Group trial. This trial resulted in average electrical savings of 8.7% - and now the VPhase device is being specified in rewires and new builds at Great Places. The results of the trial were independently assessed by EA Technology.

 

[Engineer54]

So, what is the pay-back period of the overall cost of having one of your VPhase units installed in an average 3 bedroom home??

Yes i am one of those sceptics you talk about, and to my mind, with very good reason. Most of the appliances where any real savings can be made are ''excluded'' because your unit will simply go into by-pass. The likes of any resistive load or heating element will incur no savings but will take that much longer to fulfill it's designed purpose. A good example of that would be a typical kettle!!!

Who says that your unit is the next most effective means of energy saving after home insulation, ....YOU?? Prove it, publish traceable documented figures!! I wouldn't mind betting that those smart meters that are being rolled out, saves a dammed sight more energy than your undersized unit, whether it takes making a lifestyle change or not, besides i thought that was the idea, to encourage consumer lifestyle changes in energy consumption!!!

In essence, homeowners etc, would save more money with a far faster return on there investment if they were to change every lamp in the home with LED lamps.
Your unit is basically undersized to produce the savings that would make it's purchase a worthwhile proposition.

This is not just me thinking along these lines, but just about every professional forum i know, when one of your vphase units come up for discussion. Are you saying that all of those professionals are mistaken??

 

[vphase]

When looking at the "£ saved per £ spent" from energy efficiency technologies, the calculations consider the cost of installation and the typical savings achievable. Figures for VPhase have been taken from the independently verified trials with an average 10% saving and an installed cost of £300. Other technology costs and savings were taken from the Energy Saving Trust and YouGen web sites. Based on these calculations, it is only insulation that performs better than domestic voltage optimisation in terms of £ saved per £ spent.

Although it requires a good deal of assumptions, a typical 3 bedroom property with a typical energy bill of around £600 should expect to have payback within 5 years.

The idea of consumers being proactive in reducing their energy consumption is what the concept of smart meters is based upon. However, the reality is that people can and do become complacent. Look at arguments like the Jevons Paradox (HERE) and you must concede that even with the best will in the world consumers will not remain vigilant all of the time. The VPhase device does not need human intervention. It is a fit and forget solution that lowers energy consumption without requiring that change in lifestyle.

As indicated in an earlier post, a DECC report (HERE) from July 2010 outlined how over 67% of a property's domestic energy consumption is related to lighting and appliances. This excludes heating appliances. The whole-house savings of up to 12% that VPhase quote take in to account the circuits that are not optimised.

We're also not saying that VPhase is an exclusive technology. It should be used alongside other technology options, such as the LED (or even CFL) lighting that you suggest. VPhase is another tool that should be available to consumers. It is proven to work and is a lot more cost effective and lower cost than other technologies on the market.

 

[Engineer54]

Sorry, but as you say, far too many assumptions, and over optimistic savings and pay back periods!!

I also think that homeowners are getting to be very switched on when it comes to energy saving = saving money. They may relax at Xmas and other celebrations, but the overall trend in these economic times is towards helping yourself to save on energy costs...

There are i would imagine, few homeowners that could in the present times be able to afford both the vphase unit AND re-lamp every light fitting in the home with LED lamps. I would still say the later is a far better investment than the purchase and installation of one of your vphase units... Oh and remember, REAL savings only start to kick in, when the initial cost has been paid for, you don't start making savings straight away, not in the Real world anyway, but maybe in the world of creative accounting ...lol!!!

 

[vphase]

Sorry, the DECC report link should have been this one HERE

 

[UNG]

Still not seeing a convincing argument here from vphase as I said in an earlier post unless there have been amendments to Ohms law and the power equation then I don't see how savings are made and certainly at the levels claimed on the website

Just noticed the location of Vphase and EA Technology and what EA Technolgy does

Did a google search on "voltage optimisation units" and vphase come in 10th place so there appears to alot of others pushing this lower voltage technology with savings claims

Find it interesting that they push the low and zero carbon emissions, yet most companies don't tell us what the production carbon footprint of the unit is

 

[topquark]

Do you have any technical literature that explains exactly how this works please (not marketing literature)? I'm always interested in reducing my energy costs.

 

[Guest123]

My views remain the same, I'm out!

 

[UNG]

Do you have any technical literature that explains exactly how this works please (not marketing literature)? I'm always interested in reducing my energy costs.

Their website is supposed to have all the info you need. Like you I'm always open to ideas to reduce energy costs but this just doesn't stack up for me

 

[Engineer54]

Their website is supposed to have all the info you need. Like you I'm always open to ideas to reduce energy costs but this just doesn't stack up for me

It doesn't, in fact a lot of the more relevant stuff has been dropped from their website. It was a little too revealing to the more technically minded reader!! .... lol!! They seem to be concentrating on obscure carbon savings these days. The only people interested in that are the anoraks of this world! ...lol!!

 

[Geordie Spark]

I notice that "Jenny" came on here and asked a one off question with a link to the V-phase, the rep came on later with a rebuke to negative comments
Is it just me or was the thread an attempt to use the forum for publicity

Given there has been no response from the original poster

You must be a cynical old bu**er Des ................... just like me !!! :love:

 

[Knobhead]

As a member of an international board I’ve seen many such units. The latest craze in India is domestic power factor correction units. They have no value at all other than lining the pockets of unscrupulous traders. I’m not saying V-Power is unscrupulous but I personally think what you’re selling is snake oil.

1 kilowatt of electricity is 1 kilowatt no matter how we derive it.

If we really look at things we have to take a transformers inherent (thermal, iron and copper) losses in to account. So to save “power” we have to waste power. Out of interest where were the power usage readings taken from? Before or after the unit?

The major power use in a house is heating for whatever reason, next comes lighting. Computers, televisions, phone chargers and all the other plethora of modern life are insignificant compared to the bulk of the loading. What happens when the bulk load comes on? The V-Power unit goes in to by-pass mode negating any saving.

To put your unit in to real practical use we no longer need a two way split consumer unit but a four way split unit. Each floor would need two FRC’s one on the V-Phase supply, the other for “normal” loads.

I have seen slight savings on electricity by voltage regulation in industrial situations, but most households don’t have 4 X 20MVA transformers in the back yard! As I said only slight savings, if a machine needs 50KW to turn it, it will take 50KW regardless of the voltage. Motor and lamp failures went up so it was a very short lived saving.

 

[Rockingit]

let's simplify the argument and iust line up the cliches...

You can't get out more than you put in;
P=VI;
There's no such thing as a free lunch;
Free cheese comes on mousetraps;

[add your own.....]

 

[UNG]

It doesn't, in fact a lot of the more relevant stuff has been dropped from their website. It was a little too revealing to the more technically minded reader!! .... lol!! They seem to be concentrating on obscure carbon savings these days. The only people interested in that are the anoraks of this world! ...lol!!

As I said "supposed to have" the fact it doesn't is another matter. All it has are some dodgy case studies and testimonials for this energy saving placebo as that all it appears to be

To add a cliché or two

B******T baffles some people

If it looks to good to be true then it is

 

[jenny8678]

Well, what can I say. Firstly, thank you to all of those that have answered my question and I apologise for the massive debate that I have started. Unfortunately alot of what has been said is completely out of my understanding but what is apparent is that this is not a worthwhile investment.
For all of you sceptics, I do not work for V Phase but I admit it has been interesting reading your debate and thoughts.

 

[Big n Daft]

"We're also not saying that VPhase is an exclusive technology. It should be used alongside other technology options, such as the LED (or even CFL) lighting that you suggest."

Doesnt the use of other "technology options" reduce the so called effectiveness of your unit?
Looks to me like you've just taken a shotgun to that club foot of yours.
Its also the size of a cu, how many properties have space for another cu.
You quote that savings are to be made over 5yrs on a £200 unit. Brilliant what about a sparks time and materials to fit it, this could run to a new cu when its not even required. The practical problems and cost of fitting this unit are endless. Mind you the install works well on your mock up at EA's, sorry vphase's, HQ.
Do yourself a favour and dont try and sell this product to people who know better, physics is not going to changed in the forseeable future.
Business must be good if your having a go at selling to folk like us. Normally people target the forums first as a marketing strategy and approach the forum through the proper channels (take LINE) or use the boards as a back door when they get desparate.

 

[jenny8678]

I must apologise that I have caused such a stir with you Big n Daft and can assure you that this was in no way a marketing strategy on behalf of V Phase. It was a genuine question to ask genuine electricians their views on the units.

 

[Knobhead]

Thanks for getting back us Jenny, it's nice when we get some feed back.

Sorry if the outcome wasn't what you expectd. But you've got some honest answers.

 

[Geordie Spark]

Well, what can I say. Firstly, thank you to all of those that have answered my question and I apologise for the massive debate that I have started. Unfortunately alot of what has been said is completely out of my understanding but what is apparent is that this is not a worthwhile investment.
For all of you sceptics, I do not work for V Phase but I admit it has been interesting reading your debate and thoughts.

There's no need to apologise Jenny.

I thank you for starting this very interesting debate. It's one of the best I've seen for a while.

 

[Big n Daft]

I must apologise that I have caused such a stir with you Big n Daft and can assure you that this was in no way a marketing strategy on behalf of V Phase. It was a genuine question to ask genuine electricians their views on the units.

Big n Daft by name, Big n Daft by ...........

 

[finchy]

Thanks for this very useful debate, I have been tasked to look into this as part of additional energy saving options for our customers. I have seen a big East Angilan electrical contractors offering it so thought it might be a credible technology.

I would like to sell ice to an Eskimo but I like to sleep at night...

 

[UNG]

Talking to a spark from one of the DNO's yesterday europe is again trying to change the supply voltage to 230 +/- 10% if this goes through I would like to know how these units are going to optimise the voltage at 220v when the supply voltage could be as low as 207v. Just had a news feed advising of gas and electric scams where people are being offered boxes that will save electric!!! mmmm