Anyone know anything about heating controls?

[uksparks]

Hi,

I have just swapped my ancient potterton room stat with a new Honeywell DT90E, just because there's now no argument about what temperature its at.

I have a a non condensing boiler with indirect heating via a coil thing (i think) which is unvented.

Its a Potterton Suprima 60L 78.15 Efficient D rated boiler which kicks out 17.6kW.

See link: Potterton Suprima 60L Gas - Boiler Efficiency Ratings

Reason for my concern and want to do something is because the gas bill for the last 4 weeks was £150, the last house it was only £35 per month ish, but this was 312 units, £150 of actual usage not guesstimated.

Anyway, see the photos below of what I have.

I have 15 Radiators and want to know if I can make it all wireless and have a stat in each room, so would want probably 8 room stats.

Can I do this with what I have? I have a TRV on each radiator, but what I want to know is, can I change them all for wireless and pair them all with the relevant radiators so that I can turn the heating up in one room and it opens the stat or something?

Do you see what im getting at?

 

[Octopus]

Hum, turn the heating down and installing more insulation?

 

[TJ Anderson]

That is going to cost a lot in parts to do what you suggest. Also you could end up with your boiler running longer and using more gas . Your money would be better spent on improved insulation as Murdoch has suggested and going to a condensing boiler with compensating controls. I recommend Worcester CDI (sized accordingly) and FW100. Vailant also do one.

 

[dansk]

Hi, never fitted one but this should do what you want evohome Controller - Honeywell UK Heating Controls

 

[uksparks]

The house is only 14 years old, has cavity wall insulation, tons of loft insulation, everything you can possibly do.

What do you feel is causing my high gas bill?

I don't know if leaving the hot water on auto is going to be better / cheaper than leaving it on once / twice a day? Any ideas?

Whats the benefit of a condensing of the non condensing boiler? I don't know anything about them.

 

[uksparks]

Hi, never fitted one but this should do what you want evohome Controller - Honeywell UK Heating Controls

I was wondering about that.

 

[Octopus]

Hi, never fitted one but this should do what you want evohome Controller - Honeywell UK Heating Controls

I think you need to be a registered, approved, trained installer to fit those....

 

[ian.settle1]

Why not fit TRVs to each radiator?

 

[uksparks]

I think you need to be a registered, approved, trained installer to fit those....

I am a Honeywell approved installer having done their training course... But not on the Evohome, to be honest, I do not work with heating controls enough to be able to remember exactly how it all works.

 

[David M]

Firstly the efficiency of that boiler isn't as good as modern alternatives.

But a few things to consider first before you go to any unnecessary expense are:-

Is the boiler installed in an unheated area, e.g garage or outhouse? the reason I ask is that the boiler may have a frost protection stat fitted. they are usually set at around 5 degrees C so it would be worth a check, if the temperature drops low (which it will this time of year) then the boiler will kick in on regular intervals when not in full use.

Try just turning down the TRV's in the rooms you do not use much, and keep the doors closed.

Check to see if the temperature of the heating from source (boiler) is not set too high. Many people have it wound right up causing scalding hot rads which is dangerous and totally unnecessary. The boiler will just constantly keep kicking in to maintain the flow temperature.

I noticed from your pictures that the hot water stat is set ok so are you timing your hot water, or is it regularly set to constant?

 

[TJ Anderson]

The house is only 14 years old, has cavity wall insulation, tons of loft insulation, everything you can possibly do.

What do you feel is causing my high gas bill?

I don't know if leaving the hot water on auto is going to be better / cheaper than leaving it on once / twice a day? Any ideas?

Whats the benefit of a condensing of the non condensing boiler? I don't know anything about them.

Efficiencies are much higher with a condensing boiler, but system design is also important as they only condense below the dew point (approx 55 degrees), modulating boilers condense for longer. Also how you use it, if your wife has the stat at 23 all the time, that will make a massive difference!!

 

[TJ Anderson]

Why not fit TRVs to each radiator?

He has TRV's

 

[dansk]

Have you checked your meter matches up with your bill, some suppliers bill you in m3 but the meter reads otherwise and therefore you get a high bill
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/3hjH7Ptrt9tHDG618NQwC3Z/reading-meters

 

[uksparks]

Hmm, ill check about the frost thing, and having just looked at the temperature knob, its on Max..

Presumably if I turn this down will it not make a difference to the temperature of the water? Roughly where abouts should it be on the dial?

Thanks for the help everyone!

 

[uksparks]

Have you checked your meter matches up with your bill, some suppliers bill you in m3 but the meter reads otherwise and therefore you get a high bill
BBC One - Watchdog - Reading meters

Ill go and look now....

 

[David M]

The house is only 14 years old, has cavity wall insulation, tons of loft insulation, everything you can possibly do.

What do you feel is causing my high gas bill?

I don't know if leaving the hot water on auto is going to be better / cheaper than leaving it on once / twice a day? Any ideas?

Whats the benefit of a condensing of the non condensing boiler? I don't know anything about them.

Condensing boilers are far more efficient and "more environmental friendly". They work on the basic principle of recovering as much as possible the lost heat ejected through the flue.

 

[TJ Anderson]

Hmm, ill check about the frost thing, and having just looked at the temperature knob, its on Max..

Presumably if I turn this down will it not make a difference to the temperature of the water? Roughly where abouts should it be on the dial?

Thanks for the help everyone!

Your boiler stat controls the heat of the primary pipework. You have an S Plan arrangement. This indirectly heats your water via a Zone Valve through a coil in your cylinder. This is regulated by your cylinder thermostat. It would only affect water temp if you set boiler stat at a lower temp than cylinder stat.

 

[Deleted member 72666]

Firstly make sure the units of gas that have been consumed are both the same, ie cubic ft or cubic mtrs.

 

[uksparks]

Have you checked your meter matches up with your bill, some suppliers bill you in m3 but the meter reads otherwise and therefore you get a high bill
BBC One - Watchdog - Reading meters

its in cubic meters.



As for the bill, your guess is as good as mine.

 

[Octopus]

ALWAYS check the meter the day your bill arrives or better still the day its read. And if its estimated make sure that you submit a reading.

It could simply be that they are estimating YOUR usage based on the previous people who may have liked living in a very warm house.

If its BG, and you have opted for monthly payments, be aware that they take the previous 12 months, allow for price increases and then divide by 11!

We had the opposite problem as our house had been empty for 18 months, so every quarter they tried to reduce our payments as they were recalculating using the "zero" values!!

 

[GB.Kayak]

I think you need to be a registered, approved, trained installer to fit those....

I have been looking @ Honeywell's evohome system recently and I don't remember any indication in the installation guides regarding this requirement for installation. Basic installation requires simple changes to the boiler control wiring, the replacement of the TRV control heads, not the valves, and the pairing of wireless devices.

 

[uksparks]

Your boiler stat controls the heat of the primary pipework. You have an S Plan arrangement. This indirectly heats your water via a Zone Valve through a coil in your cylinder. This is regulated by your cylinder thermostat. It would only affect water temp if you set boiler stat at a lower temp than cylinder stat.

Ah ok, so if i cranked it right down on the boiler it will be ok? See pic below, roughly how far should i turn it? Imagine its a clock face, 12 being straight up its about at 8 oclock at the moment.

 

[uksparks]

ALWAYS check the meter the day your bill arrives or better still the day its read. And if its estimated make sure that you submit a reading.

It could simply be that they are estimating YOUR usage based on the previous people who may have liked living in a very warm house.

If its BG, and you have opted for monthly payments, be aware that they take the previous 12 months, allow for price increases and then divide by 11!

We had the opposite problem as our house had been empty for 18 months, so every quarter they tried to reduce our payments as they were recalculating using the "zero" values!!

The meter readings, I took them myself and did it online.

See below.

 

[Leesparkykent]

Having the stat on the boiler turned right up shouldn't really make a difference on your gas bill as long as you have a room thermostat and hot water cylinder thermostat, these thermostats determine when to switch the boiler on and off , the thermostat on the boiler just controls the flow temperature so in theory if this is down low it would cost you more to run as it will take longer to heat the hot water and get the room up to temp. If you have a frost stat you should also have a pipe stat without the pipe stat the boiler will just keep running until the frost stat gets up to temperature. Also is the room thermostat in a room with a trv? ( they could be competing against each other).

 

[uksparks]

and this one how its worked out.

 

[TJ Anderson]

I have been looking @ Honeywell's evohome system recently and I don't remember any indication in the installation guides regarding this requirement for installation. Basic installation requires simple changes to the boiler control wiring, the replacement of the TRV control heads, not the valves, and the pairing of wireless devices.

I have fitted this system. It was done on a Listed stately home to provide zoning over two floors to avoid re-piping. The TRV's are battery operated. We had RF issue's (massive house). Honeywell sent an engineer and we had to relocate programmer to a new location. I certainly would not entertain it in your place, have you priced it up yet?

 

[uksparks]

Having the stat on the boiler turned right up shouldn't really make a difference on your gas bill as long as you have a room thermostat and hot water cylinder thermostat, these thermostats determine when to switch the boiler on and off , the thermostat on the boiler just controls the flow temperature so in theory if this is down low it would cost you more to run as it will take longer to heat the hot water and get the room up to temp. If you have a frost stat you should also have a pipe stat without the pipe stat the boiler will just keep running until the frost stat gets up to temperature. Also is the room thermostat in a room with a trv? ( they could be competing against each other).

No, the stat is in the hall way, large ish hall, no TRV on the rad though in the hall.

 

[uksparks]

Im just going to have dinner then ill be back.

 

[TJ Anderson]

Having the stat on the boiler turned right up shouldn't really make a difference on your gas bill as long as you have a room thermostat and hot water cylinder thermostat, these thermostats determine when to switch the boiler on and off , the thermostat on the boiler just controls the flow temperature so in theory if this is down low it would cost you more to run as it will take longer to heat the hot water and get the room up to temp. If you have a frost stat you should also have a pipe stat without the pipe stat the boiler will just keep running until the frost stat gets up to temperature. Also is the room thermostat in a room with a trv? ( they could be competing against each other).

UK Sparks. These are some really good points from LeeSparky. Spot on.

 

[Leesparkykent]

That's good you don't want a trv on the rad in the hallway where the room thermostat is positioned. Do you have frost protection?

 

[Octopus]

The meter readings, I took them myself and did it online.

See below.

View attachment 27402

nice. Is your house "occupied" during the day? Have you considered a programmable room stat?

 

[uksparks]

Yes the Mrs is here most of the day, to be honest now I e set the temp to 20 degrees is feels a bit nippy.

what am I looking for with the frost thing? Can you describe what it might look like please.

 

[uksparks]

UK Sparks. These are some really good points from LeeSparky. Spot on.

Yes it is indeed, you are all very helpful thank you.

 

[David M]

Having the stat on the boiler turned right up shouldn't really make a difference on your gas bill as long as you have a room thermostat and hot water cylinder thermostat, these thermostats determine when to switch the boiler on and off , the thermostat on the boiler just controls the flow temperature so in theory if this is down low it would cost you more to run as it will take longer to heat the hot water and get the room up to temp. If you have a frost stat you should also have a pipe stat without the pipe stat the boiler will just keep running until the frost stat gets up to temperature. Also is the room thermostat in a room with a trv? ( they could be competing against each other).

I had a quick chat with my colleague (he is an experienced central heating engineer) Yeah you are quite correct, on a boiler of this age the flow rate temp set high might not significantly effect the efficiency of the boiler. Unless the return temperature was significantly different than the outgoing. I know that more modern boilers are more efficient when the flow rate temp is set at around 70% of its max.

One thing he did mentioned is that to try and balance the system as best possible

hope this helps

 

[Octopus]

how different is the old house to the new one? construction? size? age?

 

[uksparks]

I'll one was 1985, 3 bed semi, large double rooms, has had 8 rads.

the new one is a 4 bed detached, 4 double rooms.

The old house, it had an electric shower, it's now off the tank.

 

[uksparks]

I had a quick chat with my colleague (he is an experienced central heating engineer) Yeah you are quite correct, on a boiler of this age the flow rate temp set high might not significantly effect the efficiency of the boiler. Unless the return temperature was significantly different than the outgoing. I know that more modern boilers are more efficient when the flow rate temp is set at around 70% of its max.

One thing he did mentioned is that to try and balance the system as best possible

hope this helps

ill have ago at balancing it, the flow and return, I guess I could measure the temp of the pipes if that would achieve anything?

 

[Simon-0116]

Just a quick thought is boiler coming on on own ie someone next door on wireless and turning it on. Mine did couldnt under stand why house warm boiler on when i came home. Changed dip switches and now good.

 

[David M]

ill have ago at balancing it, the flow and return, I guess I could measure the temp of the pipes if that would achieve anything?

I don't think it would make that much difference to be honest, just crank it down to about 3/4 the way and see if it has any adverse effect. There'd be no harm done in doing so.

Its always worth balancing the system as best possible anyhow, so I would recommend you do that even if this does not have a positive effect on your gas bill.

On a side note, you are comparing two completely different dwellings with different systems, boilers, rads, insulation.....

 

[Deleted member 72666]

I'll one was 1985, 3 bed semi, large double rooms, has had 8 rads.

the new one is a 4 bed detached, 4 double rooms.

The old house, it had an electric shower, it's now off the tank.

Well that explains a lot, you have lost your next door neighbours 'subsidy' and bigger and more rooms to heat!

 

[Leesparkykent]

Google Honeywell t4360A this is what a frost stat looks like, you normally only have a frost stat if the boiler is located in a garage, loft,outhouse, etc if the boiler is located inside the house ie the kitchen I doubt you will have frost protection. Is the room thermostat located in the direct draft of the front door? Every time the front door opens it could be dropping the temperature a lot and kicking the thermostat in.

 

[Leesparkykent]

Stick a thermometer next to your room thermostat and monitor it, to make sure the room thermostat reading is true.

 

[tazz]

My house was built in 1832, and no cavity walls, been 10 year renovating it. So now double glazing, loft insulating is all I can really do.....After big gas bills, I fitted a condenser combi, with one way valve in each room, each valve is controlled by its own timed digi stat. With bathroom and landing being free flow radiators, to continue after run flow. Now each bedroom has its own temp setting as does the lounge. Main bedroom 22 deg, spare bedroom 16 deg and lounge 23 deg. During the day all bedrooms are off, and only lounge is on. After 9pm bedrooms can then call for heat. 12am all off, 6am all on, 8am lounge only etc....next good thing, if we lite our open fire lounge goes off, due to heat, and bedrooms come on at 9pm so still warm upstairs........has cut bill from £120 to £75 per month. Note there must be at least one radiator uncontrolled in the system to allow pump to circulate.

 

[Octopus]

How much insulation in the loft?

Moving from a semi to a larger detached was always going to result in higher bills

Best bet would be to install the IT Salus 500 and you'll be able to monitor what your misses does with the heating controls when you are out and about!

 

[davesparks]

If a frost stat is fitted it is very sensible to also have a pipe stat on the return to the boiler (set at ~20C) this prevents it from running for a long time on the frost stat.

 

[Geordie Spark]

Firstly the efficiency of that boiler isn't as good as modern alternatives.

But a few things to consider first before you go to any unnecessary expense are:-

Is the boiler installed in an unheated area, e.g garage or outhouse? the reason I ask is that the boiler may have a frost protection stat fitted. they are usually set at around 5 degrees C so it would be worth a check, if the temperature drops low (which it will this time of year) then the boiler will kick in on regular intervals when not in full use.

Try just turning down the TRV's in the rooms you do not use much, and keep the doors closed.

Check to see if the temperature of the heating from source (boiler) is not set too high. Many people have it wound right up causing scalding hot rads which is dangerous and totally unnecessary. The boiler will just constantly keep kicking in to maintain the flow temperature.

I noticed from your pictures that the hot water stat is set ok so are you timing your hot water, or is it regularly set to constant?

Got it in one there!!!

 

[snowhead]

View attachment 27394

Must be nice if you have to get up in the middle of the night to have the house warm, although a bit of an expensive luxury.


CONT(inuous) means always ON.

 

[guest119]

My heating was too expensive and was also heating a tank of water through an indirect coil.
3 years ago I removed the tank and cylinder and made it all direct from a Main 24kw gas direct boiler (E-BLAg £90.)
So now I have 2 boilers and more control.

 

[Deleted member 72666]

Must be nice if you have to get up in the middle of the night to have the house warm, although a bit of an expensive luxury.


CONT(inuous) means always ON.

No! It's what you feel like when you find out you left it on this setting!

 

[amlu]

have a look on your gas bill, see how much they charge you for gas, you may be on some rip-off tariff.