Approved tradesmen scheme

[ipf]

You cant make the 18th a closed book exam, nobody can digest the whole book lol

Chew on that, eh?
Too thick for me, too.

 

[rewireIT]

"Part P" registered (?) (so glad it's not a thing in Scotland)

So what is the script in Scotland if you want to do domestic work? No notifying?

 

[HappyHippyDad]

They just don't operate under the scheme anymore. All the cowboys who were allowed on before 2021 have lifetime access.

I'm one of those cowboys

Again for some reason we're equating not telling someone you've done work with potential danger. Why? Why would 'danger and problems result' from not notifying?

Even though you sound quite annoying you've got an interesting point ;-)

I thought about that today. Its really to do with the reason for notifying work and I'm embarrassed to say I'm not sure what that reason is.

I guess the notification system may somewhat decrease builders from carrying out major electrical work as they would be worried about the consequences of getting caught (my builder feels this way).

Perhaps it also encourages the installer to do a good job and not cut corners, as if the work has been notified it may be used as your assessment. If you don't notify it, some may become a little blasé as there's zero chance of anyone checking.

I'm clutching at straws a little though.

 

[davesparks]

If every spark said 'No, this is stupid and i'm not doing it. Let's see you police it, LOL.' they would HAVE to put sensible rules in place.

Who are 'they'?

And they wouldn't 'HAVE' to put different rules in place. Government and local authorities would more likely set up a marketing campaign pushing the importance of part P and notification to customers.
And you'd probably get a lot of customers not paying their bills because the lack of notification has prevented their job getting an LABC completion certificate.

IMO the qualifications should be 18th, NVQ, AM2, and full testing and inspection.

You're missing the most important thing, proven experience. A journeyman type system would be far better. Originally the JIB gradings achieved something of this nature but that has somewhat fallen by the wayside.

Once you have those you should be able to touch any install you like without having to pay because passing them proves you know how to do electrics safely.

Those qualifications are not enough to touch any install you like or to prove that you know how to do it safely.
Those qualifications would probably cover you for domestic and light/medium (non-specialist) commercial installations.

 

[davesparks]

The only thing i would change about this is i would make the 18th test an actual test of your knowledge on the regs and not just a 'can you find it in the book' exercise.

What would be the point of that?

An exam which assesses your ability to memorise nearly 600 A4 pages of text has no bearing on a persons ability as an electrician. You'd almost certainly drive out a lot of good electricians and end up with an industry full of people with great memories and lacking practical skills.

 

[rewireIT]

What would be the point of that?

An exam which assesses your ability to memorise nearly 600 A4 pages of text has no bearing on a persons ability as an electrician. You'd almost certainly drive out a lot of good electricians and end up with an industry full of people with great memories and lacking practical skills.

Yeah see other posts in this thread regarding your point.

 

[rewireIT]

Those qualifications are not enough to touch any install you like or to prove that you know how to do it safely.
Those qualifications would probably cover you for domestic and light/medium (non-specialist) commercial installations.

Are you purposefully pedantic just to be a contrarian?

I think it has to go without saying i wasn't insinuating that you could do your 18th, I+T and AM2 and then go out working on HV set ups or anything like that.

If you pass said quals you absolutely should be deemed qualified to touch anything domestic small commercial. If not then it's the quals that should be improved and upgraded. What would be the point of them otherwise? What shouldn't happen is people say what you say and then tell you they can cure it with a £500 payment to NAPIT. That's like when they still let me drive my car in the ULEZ and then pretend they've stopped my pollution because i paid them £12.50. It's nonsense.

 

[davesparks]

Well no but you could instead for example have it as a part of the AM2 where you are given a made up customer spec and made to install it to regs, proving you know practical application of 7671.

'Customer wants upstairs and downstairs sockets and lighting, outside lighting, power to an outbuilding powering X circuits, a cooker, a shower, and a hive system for heating/hot water.'

So you'd reduce the AM2 down to a simple exam in domestic work without even a basic 3 phase circuit?

 

[loz2754]

So you'd reduce the AM2 down to a simple exam in domestic work without even a basic 3 phase circuit?

There is indeed now such a thing as AM2D. For domestic only.

 

[loz2754]

I often think about jacking it all in because of all this crap. But I don't know what I'd do instead. I love my job. I just want to be allowed to do it and respected enough to not to have jump through so many hoops, just to line the pockets of the politicians and rule makers.

 

[rewireIT]

So you'd reduce the AM2 down to a simple exam in domestic work without even a basic 3 phase circuit?

Nope it was a simple example for the sake of discussion. Keep trying to pick holes to find arguments though.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Kettle, Black, Calling, Pot, Rearrange to well known saying.

 

[Diddy]

2p worth....
I became an electrician in 1988ish. I did my full 4 stage CITB funded SJIB approved apprenticeship. It said on my certificate "completed Apprenticeship". My plastic card said "Electrician" on it. 2 years later my new card said "Approved Electrician" on it.
The "deal" was/is that I/we/Us all kept our regulations updated to ensure that we were all doing the correct things to the correct standards at any given time in the future. So I did my 15th Edition as an apprentice, I done the 16th, 17th and 18th out of my own pocket in keeping with "the deal".
My card if I choose to reapply for one should still say "Approved electrician" based upon the above.
Now IF I live in Scotland it will STILL say Approved electrician, If I try to register in England (Which I also did in the past because I have lived there for the best part of 30 years ) it will say something daft such as electrical Labourer...BUT for the previous 25 years or more my english JIB card said "Approved electrician"
The change ? They have renamed the test from C&G along with the modules we all done to an NVQ3...The NVQ 3 I am led to believe is taking pictures of your work, building up a portfolio and getting all of the above signed/countersigned by an electrician that has witnessed/monitored/mentored me....I did ALL of this as part of my apprenticeship. But there is zero space for the old tickets...
Now I mention the JIB because it is essentially the exact same thing that the likes of the current providers use to decide if you are eligible to register with them. They have effectively shut the door on people like myself who have been working as successful electricians keeping ALL our bits updated. We just woke up one day to learn "Sorry mate you qualified pre 1992 so now you need to prove that you are an electrician again".
for me it's not the tightening of the entry requirements. It's the fact that they have disregarded lots of the official routes taken to become an electrician - lots of the older guys will even say "Those tests were HARDER in our day" well thats arguable but the results seem to back up that claim. My tests were not multiple choice, Nor were they open book, the old 2391 had a pretty horrific failure rate....But suddenly I/We now need an NVQ that doesn't even come close to what I/We already bloody well done.
I did an AM1 and AM2. End of year exams to progress to the next stage....My AM2 even had this mad stuff called MICC in it which seemed to worry a lot of lads, Good job they stripped it out of the test for the shiny new AM2 lol.
As for the schemes themselves and the effectiveness of them. Well we are still waiting on public statements from each scheme as to how many operatives they strike off for bad workmanship. It must be an easy question to answer but yet as far as I am aware the question was asked in the select committee about 10+ years ago and still we don't know the answers.
The schemes are only as effective as those policing them. If they simply say ok show us your bits of paper and get the payment sent to us and your good to go, then that isn't achieving what was "intended" by making it a requirement that to work in a domestic setting you need to be registered with a scheme....And so on.
The NIC will come after you if you use their logo a week after your membership has lapsed though, they are VERY hot on that.

Overall one comes away with the suspicion that the system currently is NOTHING to do with safety and is much more to do with money.
It's quite amusing that I could in england perfectly legally work in an explosive environment doing electrical work, I could do electrical work in nuclear power stations I can do all commercial, all industrial, I could be in charge of 100 electricians on sight and be giving them guidance and showing them what to do even how to do it......But If I go home and decide to add say a brand new circuit for a fridge so its on it's own in my kitchen then in today's world in Enlgland im technically "not allowed" or more to the point I need to get a scheme member to come and check my work, test it and sign it off for me. If nobody can see that is wrong then I really don't know what to say.

The annoying thing is with a few tweaks to the recognition of all routes coupled with surprise inspections of jobs completed (where the scheme contacts a customer and arranges a site visit say 1 week after notification) include ONE phone number for customers to report bad experiences/poor workmanship which would trigger a site visit from an inspector....it's ALL achievable. People would start to fall off the schemes due to their bad workmanship and the customers would be at least semi confident that paying a bit more for a "registered" electrician at least gave you a decent chance of some sort of protection. The gas guys do not seem to have these problems.....