Are Electricians Being De-Valued?

[skirby]

Having worked as an electrician for over 30 years and I've seen a lot of changes since the 14th Edition of the Regs. It seems to me that electricians are no longer valued highly enough for the work they do and the training they have to undertake. Here's how I see things today...

Constant Changes

I accept that electrical safety regulations have to change to keep up with new technology and as a working electrician I need to update my knowledge. But electricians seem to be thrown an increasing amount of hoops to jump through and are expected to pay for the extra time and effort it takes, just to keep doing their job. It takes a good deal of dedication to get trained up and start out as a qualified sparks in the first place and the constant updating and re-issuing of BS7671 Wiring Regs and related courses is a serious bone of contention amongst electricians.

This would be great if we were being paid accordingly but in my experience we are just seen as another trade as far as rates of pay are concerned. Operating as a fully qualified electrician (especially running your own business) has changed from being a regular construction trade job to something far more involved but in my opinion electricians have been de-valued.

Would I recommend anyone to become an electrician today?

Yes I would. Being an electrician an interesting and challenging job and a cut above other trades as for as knowledge and responsibility is concerned (I suppose you’d call that job prestige?). By working for a company (or sub-contracting) where all the paperwork and training is organised for you it can still be a great career.

But in the present economic climate I wouldn’t recommend starting out in the domestic sector or going down the Part P route running your own small business. That’s partly what I do now. It’s interesting going through the process but a lot of effort to deal with all the paperwork, test sheets and registering jobs. On top of all that you’ve got to deal with customers, compete for work and make enough money to earn a living, which isn’t easy at the moment.

Regulation Overkill ?

As I mentioned before, in my experience most people view electricians as just another trade. I think we have respect but aren’t really appreciated for the service we provide (do I hear violins?). Very few builders, carpenters, decorators and plumbers have to update their qualifications or give any sort of certification for their work or may be held accountable the safety of end users of their installations in the same way as electricians. It’s not uncommon to come across plumbers who have de-registered for gas work and just concentrate on the plumbing. They don’t consider the cost (and aggravation) of re-training for a gas cert every few years is worth the effort. It’s also not uncommon to come across electricians who are considering leaving the trade due to over-regulation.

Over the past 20 years we’ve seen that whole industry has evolved around training, testing and regulating electricians and I guess that’s what upsets experienced sparks the most. I’m in favour of updating and improving my skills but when you’re at the recieving end of endless demands for re-training and updating your regs books you’d like to feel that you are actually adding to your value as an electrician, rather than simply keeping yourself in a job.

It seems to be a matter of- “If you want to be in the game you’ll simply have to play by the rules”. The electrical industry is a prime target for regulation overkill and maybe you need to have been around for a while to appreciate how deep it reaches.

The Future

In summary I’m saying, there should be regulation but not so much of it, it should cost us less, and we should be paid a fair wage for what we do. I guess it’s up to us to make sure we get all of these things.

Despite this, youngsters coming into the trade won’t know any different and they’ll take it all in their stride. Electricians and electrical work will always require some sort of regulation and re-training as technology evolves. That’s the nature of the electrical industry.

There will always be electricians and hopefully they will be respected for their knowledge and experience in years to come. An electrician’s life won’t be easy but I hope they will be valued enough to be paid an acceptable rate for doing a responsible and essential job.

We're all in this together. Do you feel de-valued and are you concerned about the over regulation of the electrical industry and the way it affects you as an electrician?

 

[Chris Whitehead]

Of course electricians are under valued. Its the state of affairs. Everybody must have heard their boss say 'you should be lucky your in a decent job nowadays', which is true I suppose. I do wonder if employers are taking advantage of the situation - loads of people looking for work will drive the wages down what ever the profession.

As for health and safety - we all say H&S has gone mad, but than so has accidents, dangerous practices, tight-wad bosses who think training courses are an unnecessary expense, and litigation costs, all gone mad.

It only started getting worse since bosses were liable to prosecution. They are all seeking buffer zones between them and any accidents by tonnes of paper work. Took me a full day to get an isolation permit yesterday. I just think its funny ridiculous, no point in stressing over it. the responsibility is off me now - good! Its gonna get worse too. If you don't like it now, give it another five years and you'll be hanging up your test-leads.

I find the work place is all a little confusing nowadays, lots of experts with opinions on how it shoud be done, ego-battling between each other, where as twenty years ago you had one person/inpsector that was independant and insisted the job was done right, if not do it again. No one is allowed the time to do this anymore. We are all working to full capacity with more responsibility and more paperwork its no wonder we are having more accidents nowadays, despite all this H&S in place.

Good post, surprised its not got more response.

 

[sparkdog]

One thing that put me off going back to being an electrician is the over attention on legal implications.It seems like you can't change a light bulb now without being held legally liable.I don't remember having much attention on legal implications when I was an apprentice in the 1960s.This thing of having to have a new regs book and all the guide books just because of a few amendments seems absolutely nuts to me.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

because now we have no real industrys left....the only thing for it now is to invent some...like `elf n safety....the claims boom and all the rest of it.....at least its an admission by the powers that be that theres nowt left but to invent rubbish and red tape as a means of duping a gullable public....its illusionist and fake...nowt else....and its costing this country seriously in its ability to compete and attract business.....prospective business will take one look at all this crap were saddled with....and just go elseware...or worse still jump ship.....

 

[Arnold Layne]

skirby, thank you for your interesting and thought provoking post! Chris is correct, surprised there are not more responses because I think your views deserve some. So I will offer some thoughts...Firstly is there such a thing as the Electrical Industry and if there is, what does it include? Certainly there are Electricians ( but there is no standard qualification or training which allows anyone to call themselves an electrician) Secondly there are electricians working in a variety of industries/sectors... Construction, Health, Education, Nuclear to name but a few. All of these Industries have different requirements be they technical, legal or related to Health and Safety. Having different requirements they also have different pay rates, so the rate depends on the sector you work in ,not how you describe yourself.

I think most would agree that an electrician wiring domestic properties would not need the same technical or H&S understanding as someone working on nuclear ( pyro, SWA,MV/HV is not normally associated with house wiring), so are we the same and should we be paid the same rate?

You also make an excellent point about employment status. Those employed by a company have all of their training paid for. Those self employed do not. Those running their own businesses need to know what training they and their staff require, pay for it and deal with VAT, HMRC, Insurance, Sales etc ( are they business managers or electricians for the purpose of determining pay or skill requirements?)

Are Doctors an individual entity? ( I am making a comparison here) No they are not. Some work in the Healthcare Sector, others work in Commerce, Education, Sports etc. Are they paid the same? I think not..it is Sector specific. But let's talk Healthcare, there are GPs, Heart Specialists, Skin Specialists and A&E Specialists. All have undertaken a medical degree, but to specialise have taken further extensive training/education. Would you go to a skin Specialist for Open Heart Surgery? No, you would want a Heart specialist and if you were paying you would expect to pay more for a Heart specialist than someone who had completed the basic training( a basic medical degree) Are things different with electricians..? well I don't think so.

So electricians come with various skills and knowledge. They work in a variety of sectors. They operate under different employment relationships. They are a diverse and wonderful group. Can they be paid the same rate?( and I'm not suggesting that this is what you are saying, but what is an acceptable rate across such a diverse group with differing qualifications) Is there an educational standard beyond the basic core? And is it not the case that while some sectors are over regulated, others are under-regulated ( and the people doing the work in both of these types of sectors would describe themselves as electricians).

Thank you again for a very thought provoking post!

 

[johnboy6083]

I think we are undervalued, but also becoming less skilled. Fair enough we have to learn new regs every now nad then, but IMO a basic electrician has less skills than one about years ago. This is a lot to do with the way we are employed, and the fact that people seem to take less carein what they do. On large jobs, you dont have to think, and in some cases are moaned at if you do. Many electricians do not really understand the theory behind what they do, and in some cases its a wonder they manage to become sparks at all.
I thnink that its wrong that an electrician can serve an apprenticeship carrying out one particular type of work, and as JTL provide the apprenticeships, it would be a good thing all around if the apprentices were moved to a different company every year. This would mean we had more rounded sparks.

I think that some fo the most skilled sparks qwe have are in the maintenance sector, and the one man bands that work across different sectors. Maintenance sparks are often on poor pay compared with the installation jobs, but they get better terms and conditions, (im waiting for tony to disagree lol), job security, and a defined career path.

those are some of my thoughts.

 

[skirby]

Thanks for your thoughts chaps.
I wouldn't suggest that different grades or skill levels of electricians shold be paid the same at all. Electrical work covers a vast range of technical abilities specialities. My point was that we seem to have been de-valued when compared to other trades in the construction industry.

Nowdays I mainly work in the domestic sector along side other trades. They are earning about the same as me without all the red tape. Their evenings aren't spent filling out test sheets and registering jobs. No annual subscriptions or inspections for them (apart from maybe gas fitters). Although I do expect all this as part of being an electrician I'm sure things used to be easier.

I guess it's a sign of the times that we're all under pressure if we're running our own businesses, as Chris says above- "We are all working to full capacity with more responsibility and more paperwork". To be fair to the other trades I expect a lot of them are feeling de-valued at the moment too. I sense that something seriously needs to give before we all hit rock bottom.

 

[ralph]

Excellent post.

I agree with all the sentiments expressed. Its seems strange with the constant requirements to pass exams and get cards to prove a person can do the work they have been for years that the skill levels are decreasing.
Especially when you go on some site, and wiring two-way switch poses a problem for some electricians. It is almost if being a fully qualified electrician goes against person into days market.

Personally I would be in favour of reducing the required exams and paper work and replacing with a licensing system. For instance, once a person has completed their apprenticeship or training, every three years a one day appraisal would be required to test knowledge and practical skills.

If the tests where set at the right level, and only people passing the tests could do electrical work, this might solve some of our problems.

 

[Engineer54]

Excellent post.

I agree with all the sentiments expressed. Its seems strange with the constant requirements to pass exams and get cards to prove a person can do the work they have been for years that the skill levels are decreasing.
Especially when you go on some site, and wiring two-way switch poses a problem for some electricians. It is almost if being a fully qualified electrician goes against person into days market.

Personally I would be in favour of reducing the required exams and paper work and replacing with a licensing system. For instance, once a person has completed their apprenticeship or training, every three years a one day appraisal would be required to test knowledge and practical skills.

If the tests where set at the right level, and only people passing the tests could do electrical work, this might solve some of our problems.

There is no supplement for having the required qualifications in today's world. What is needed is a set down officially recognised set of qualifications, that is needed to be called a qualified electrician. That should also be underpinned by a recognised period of on site experience that can either be run concurrently with your academic training or undertaken after that training.

I certainly agree wholeheartedly with the need for a National Register of Qualified Electricians, which would also effectively end the role of these cash hungry Scam Providers, whose sole existence, is to confirm competence (to which they have failed miserably).

 

[malcolmsanford]

We are never ever going to regain the status we had when I first came into the industry that i'm afraid is fact.

Over the years the industry as segmented to such a degree that there is very few "full" electricians just bits and bobs.

We have Domestic Installers, fire alarm engineers, off shore, on shore, explosive and the list goes on and on. Now we are at the stage of where you need to be trained to be a meter fixer, for crying out loud 4 cables .......................it is mind blowing.

Why is our industry in such a shambles, well that is easy John hit it on the head, no industry. The much maligned coal mines, steel factories, ship yards produced tradesmen, real tradesmen. I can still see my foreman and the lads working on everything. fire alarms, Compex SWA. MICC, signals, containment access controls, logic system the list goes on and on and I was trained the same.

Now we have 5 weeks to become an domestic installer, you can get fire alarm courses and to run a fire alarm system in and soon you will get a 6 week course on how to be an commercial only sparks.

What was once a trade that was top of the tree, is now not even on the tree. Too many things have happened to us that makes old codgers like me look back and weep for what we have lost, and too late to do anything about it really.

 

[skirby]

Thanks Guys. I'm trying to get the full picture and something is developing here. But how do you feel compared to other trades?

 

[bugsy]

one word ---YES

The question is why are we being undervalued / skills we hold not taken into relevance

 

[sedgy34]

Its becoming more apparent all the books and the re training keeping upto date on things, insurances and accreditations all these things are called overheads and you get screwed down to the penny to earn a living. this is because people do work for nothing and the part p allowed kitchen fitters /plumbers/chippies to mess with electrics not forgetting the sparkys not registered who coin it in and leave a job having not certified it. WHAT CHANCE DO YOU HAVE

 

[Des 56]

Its probably much harder for us older electricians to come to terms with what has happened and what will be a continuous journey into the unknown
It has been a journey from high rewards and community respect to overburdened also rans in the present societies eyes

A shame really,but I suspect, its a fallen trade that cant be rebuildmcertainly not with the respect it once had

 

[Adam W]

I definitely feel under-appreciated in my current job - everyone gets paid the same including people with no formal qualifications who spend all day cutting wires to prescribed lengths and taping them together, or clipping wagos into adaptable boxes. Well in fact they get paid more than me because I work via an agency.
In the past people with no electrical qualifications have come from other trades and had a go at pulling wires which for some reason seems to be perfectly acceptable whereas there is no way I could suddenly decide I'm a chippy, deck fitter or laminator. Presumably for this reason putting a bit of flex on a fluorescent batten to make a work light has to be done by 'maintenance' even though they probably have less qualifications than the rest of us. If I tried isolating a circuit and extending a ring I'd probably get fired.

As for a 'licensing system' I think that is a bit pie in the sky - people's problem with the JIB skills card seems to be that they have worked as an electrician for years but only have the technical certificate and college based qualifications to get a trainee card. Remember the problem with 5WWs seems to be that they are going out and working on their own without any previous experience, just 5 weeks learning the theory and practical on mock installations in a workshop in a training centre; if there were some alternative card which calls someone an 'electrician' who hasn't completed the NVQ3 and therefore has proven to a certain extent that they are competent to work in the field there will be no way of distinguishing someone who is competent at what they are doing and has a proven track record from someone who had a desk job up until 6 weeks ago, then did a 5 week 'intensive' course.

 

[benji]

it started going down hill when the JIB started ( i have never known a spark to say they voted for it )

 

[alarm man]

it started going down hill when the JIB started ( i have never known a spark to say they voted for it )

sparks were the cream of the industry when the jib started,everyone wanted or pretended to be a spark,the benefits were way ahead of any other trade

 

[robsparky1975]

I think that the introduction of the part p has helped devalue the industry,yes its domestic but all those quick courses have pumped out 1000s of "sparks" or mates the agencies have no idea that these short courses dont give people knowledge of anything other than domestic,so there is just to much supply, in turn just pay some crap £12 an hour,it seems that scaffolders are valued more.my dad is semi retired sparks and he keeps bringing up stories of the good old days,alas no way they will return,sure your post has pretty much put forward what most of us feel.

 

[Dave 85]

To the OP....
I know what you are getting at, its all a bit of a p*** take the constant regs updates and what not but I dont let it get to me. I'm the type of person that if I dont agree with something, Im not gonna go out of my way to pay too much attention to it. That said I take a lot of pride in my work and always ensure everything I install is as safe as it can possibly be.
Im young and have only ever known the post part P days but personally I dont have a problem with the way things are. I've been self employed since I was 22 and always done Ok out of it. Most of the electricians I know still make significantly more money than other trades.

I understand this does not represent the industry as a whole and that there are self employed experienced qual'd sparkies out there working for next to nothing but thats life....
Heres the way I see it....
The western world is f**ked...
Its not a reccession thats magically gonna dissapear one day and we'll all be rich again....
Its just f**ked.
Noone can get a job in the UK anymore, every tom dick and harry has a degree which isn't worth the paper its printed on. Then they hear these rumours that electricians make good money...Funnily enough its always the response I get when I tell somoeone my job "oooh good money..." in a rather patronizing way, I can't see them saying that to stockbrokers but hey ho....
So now everybody wants to be a spark and these training centres are cropping up and noone realises that training alone doesn't magically make you a competent spark so the countries now flooded with highly qualified but inexperienced sparks....
So yeah the moneys no good anymore for site/agency work...
But all trades are suffering its not just ours...

Personally I am glad I became a spark and would never do anything else. I like the work, the responsibility, the money..... hell I even like part P.

 

[Smudge]

reading through all these comments has just shown me both how lucky i am, and the sort of bubble i must be living in. I've not been in the game that long in comparrison to most (<15years), and i haven't done any qualifiacations outside my apprenticeship, approved and 17th. I wouldn't even know where to go to find out what quals i am meant to have before i were to do certain jobs. I live and work in Scotland, and frankly, the talk of Part P bewilders me.
I originally started as a spark in the army, and had to re-do a proper apprenticeship when i came out as my qualifications (basically nothing) didn't cross over. I worked domestic through my time, and now work industrial 'maintenance'.
I am the electrical supervisor at a factory, and for example, for a comparrison, one guy is 25 years old and another is 58years old. The younger of the 2 is always asking to be sent on courses and if i get granted the funding from the directors, i send him. The older guy, i basically had to force him to go sit his 17th edition exam. His attitude was that he served his time nearly 40 years ago and that is enough. Regs etc don't come into it with his attitude. And dare i say it, even with all this guys experience, how can that be proved without documentation? He could of done his trade 40years ago and worked as a baker for 30years before he came here for all i know.

This is where i agree with the point that a lisence, or a register should be properly introduced with annual/biannual or whatever assessments. Then, everyone would know where they stand, what they need to do to achieve this.

Back to the OP, this is where i feel lucky...it's a great point and very thought provoking, but i seem to have side-stepped the comotion (for now) of the building trade by working in the relative safety of industrial maintenance.

 

[dingledong]

also its a money maker in that i have spoken to some people who came to electrics at a late stage and were once er bus drivers for example who say if bus driving money went up to above a sparks wage that they would go back to it. where i believe us old uns would stay in the trade as we enjoy it ( well not enjoy it exactly but you know what i mean)

also the course for meter fitting in london the london electricity has 2 grades of fitter 1 does old meters and 1 does new meters
unbelievable

 

[Engineer54]

So now everybody wants to be a spark and these training centres are cropping up and no one realises that training alone doesn't magically make you a competent spark so the countries now flooded with highly qualified but inexperienced sparks....

Highly Qualified?? ....By who's standard for god's sake?? Training Centre trained electricians are anything but highly trained, not even a core qualification to be seen. These training centre's set there course levels low, to match the Part Pee providers entry levels, then add a couple of non-plus courses like Pat Testing, to make them look attractive to the unsuspecting punters that there looking to catch, then fictitiously promising that these punters will be Qualified after 5 to 7 weeks!!!

That's part of the problem in the industry these day's, ''Under Qualified and Inexperienced'' electricians posing as being Qualified Competent electricians!!!

 

[Darkwood]

My collegue left my old firm and did a slow down job to retirement as tech adviser on RS Components trade counter kinda finding the right product for the customers needs, now considering its mainly the commercial/industrial electrical and mechanical trades using rs of those coming in who consider themselves electricians he told me that he would honestly class about 1 in 20 who new their job and he was numb with shock as to the questions he was asked by said tradesman and in house sparkies for big companies:- Example A

-Can i have a contactor exactly the same as this one?
No its obsolete but we can supply an alternative.
-OK il have one.

-Contactor was brought back same day saying the terminals are not in the same position as the old one
is that a big problem?
-well i drew a picture of the old connections and now my picture wont be right
well cant you extend the wires to the new terminal position then?
-Oh hadn't thought of that!!!!..........
Example B:-

-Electrician brought a resistor in all burnt out and a charred mess (no colour code left) and said can you replace this?
Of course, im sure we will have something to fit, now what size resistor do you need?
-Dont know, cant you tell me?
Ermmm! no! not really its burnt away the coded bands.
-Well cant you guess?
No we stock a range of resistors numbering in the 100's of thousands and have access to millions on request so i cant guess really.
-Well what am i going to do then.
I can only suggest you try get a circuit board layout plan and identify the resistor if electronics are not your thing or ring tech of the manufacturers.
- Oh well erm im a Electrician and got the job because i said i can do machine maintenance but was thinking id be replacing broken buttons and burnt out connectors so didn't realise it would be this difficult.
Sorry can't help (speechless comes to mind).

Example 3

-I need a limit switch for an escalator (he then shows a corroded limit switch with info missing)
What rating was it?
-Well this was 24v but i dont do 24v stuff so gonna do new one in 230v as the transformers burnt out too.
Why did it burn out then?
-Water had pooled at the bottom of the ecalator and shorted something and also corroded this so decided to put a more powerful voltage in this time.
Well im happy to replace this part with what you ask and it is rated for both voltages but may i give a little advice and suggest you keep the system as you found it as i suspect doing what you intend would be dangerous.
- no its ok im a sparky and know what im doing!!

These weren't isolated incident this was a daily thing and i heard so many stories im starting to realise the gov' pushes quick qual' sparkies into the system who are not prepared just to get the unemployment figures down, i did 3.5yrs with apprenticeship to get what electricians are doing in 1.5yrs and they say it hasn't been dumbed down, not directly the fault of the new generation but it explains alot of the questions asked on this site as they are just fast tracked and lack the indepth knowledge that was taught many yrs ago.

And lastly in response to OP's question, the industry is been attacked from a few directions with dodgy trademans shows on tv making customer believe everyones dodgy, to as mentioned above the de-skilling of new generation and also the economic climate which means alot of possible custom is looking for cheaper cash in hand jobs which leaves less work for those who should be doing it thus reduction in price we can charge to attract jobs.

 

[Adam W]

I still don't get how having another hoop to jump through and another subscription to pay (you don't think this will be free do you?) will be of any help to anyone.
We have the JIB skills card which proves you have a certain level of relevant training, and we have part P who do some kind of regular practical assessment.
You want a "national register" or "electricians' licence"? Well there are already about 6 of the things - take your pick.

Take Smudge's example of 2 electricians above - the one least likely to be able to get his 'licence' would be the old guy who trained 40 years ago and thinks he knows it all; his response would most likely be "well I don't need some new-fangled licence to tell me I'm an electrician - I've been doing this job for 40 years!" Then not all electricians will join it, thereby it will only be the ones trying to do things 'by the book' who join the scheme and pay the subscription, and we end up with yet another pointless money-making scam which isn't worth buttons.
As I've said we already have a skills card and we already have practical assessments and a 'competent persons' scheme' in the form of part P - wouldn't it be better to make those work rather than taking pot luck with something new?
Sod's law dictates that this new thing which everyone seems to want will just take all the worst elements of the existing schemes and package them together in one expensive bundle, then after the honest tradesmen who this is supposed to help have shelled out thousands it will be back to square one with some electricians calling for a 'gas safe for electricians'.

 

[Lucas123]

So many good points on this thread dont know where to start....

Its similar to people that come out of uni with degrees in construction this that and the other but give them a drill and wouldnt know what end to hold it properly.

The nvq was supposed to allievate the problem of these quick fix "become a fully qualified electrician in 8 weeks" as it is on the job trainig as every probably knows !

IMO can not beat a full apprenticeship. It gives you solid, time served worthwhile training and more to the point what comes with 3-4 year apprenticeship is the up most respect for the trade, the credentials needed in order to carry out the job effiecently and safely and respect for those that you learned from and those who are more knowledgeable than yourself. I havent met people on this site in the person but you have instant respect for a fellow sparks on here who you can just tell have that greater experience and knowledge !!

I wouldnt be any ither trade ! I think we are being de-valued

I have been in it for 10 years now 4 year apprenticeship (with nvq) 2360 pt 1 & 2 and 2391 and i occasionally have a n apprentice and he shows me his assignments and course work and it bearly touches what we done in the first 6 months and he is a 3rd year apparently !!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

To the OP....
I know what you are getting at, its all a bit of a p*** take the constant regs updates and what not but I dont let it get to me. I'm the type of person that if I dont agree with something, Im not gonna go out of my way to pay too much attention to it. That said I take a lot of pride in my work and always ensure everything I install is as safe as it can possibly be.
Im young and have only ever known the post part P days but personally I dont have a problem with the way things are. I've been self employed since I was 22 and always done Ok out of it. Most of the electricians I know still make significantly more money than other trades.

I understand this does not represent the industry as a whole and that there are self employed experienced qual'd sparkies out there working for next to nothing but thats life....
Heres the way I see it....
The western world is f**ked...
Its not a reccession thats magically gonna dissapear one day and we'll all be rich again....
Its just f**ked.
Noone can get a job in the UK anymore, every tom dick and harry has a degree which isn't worth the paper its printed on. Then they hear these rumours that electricians make good money...Funnily enough its always the response I get when I tell somoeone my job "oooh good money..." in a rather patronizing way, I can't see them saying that to stockbrokers but hey ho....
So now everybody wants to be a spark and these training centres are cropping up and noone realises that training alone doesn't magically make you a competent spark so the countries now flooded with highly qualified but inexperienced sparks....
So yeah the moneys no good anymore for site/agency work...
But all trades are suffering its not just ours...

Personally I am glad I became a spark and would never do anything else. I like the work, the responsibility, the money..... hell I even like part P.

yes well it was just on the friday just gone that i was splitting tails via a henley into a DP iso and then into a small C/U via an armoured when i smelt gas coming from the meter box directly below the one i was working in....theres a couple of gas lads that the kitchen fitters on site know so they came out to take a look.....was talkin to one of em about how things were in the gas trade and he said he would rather have gone down the electricians route if he could have done it again...now, he`s been trading as a gas man for 10 odd years and he said that theres all this undercutting going on like 5 week wonders and pat testers n all that lot so we aint on our own fellas....seems to me its everywere....

 

[Adam W]

.....was talkin to one of em about how things were in the gas trade and he said he would rather have gone down the electricians route if he could have done it again...now, he`s been trading as a gas man for 10 odd years and he said that theres all this undercutting going on like 5 week wonders and pat testers n all that lot so we aint on our own fellas....seems to me its everywere....

That reinforces what I was saying about this idea of some kind of 'licence' - if gas safe isn't working for gas men how can we expect a copy of it to help us?

As you say it seems to have happened in every job imaginable - the police have PCSOs, ambulancemen have EMTs and fast response bikes, teachers have 'teaching assistants' - all seemingly serving as a separate support job rather than being a training stage like a kitchen porter (washer up) training to be a chef, or a 'mate' training to be a spark. The difference seems to be that domestic installers and 'PAT testers' tend to work independently of electricians with the sole purpose of saving a bit of cash.

If you look at how services like banking have gone, where you have to speak to a different department for every aspect rather than walking into the bank and speaking to the bank manager - it's clear that the idea behind this is so someone can walk in off the street, be given a 5 week course in that and just do that specific thing all day instead of training every aspect of the job.
I can see it getting worse for us - on big jobs I reckon installations might be designed by a designer on a computer, a containment installer will go in and put in the containment, then a wireman will go in and put the wires in, then someone else will do the final connections, then someone else will inspect and test it, instead of having fully qualified sparks doing the lot.
You can imagine the buck-passing that will happen when something goes wrong - 'too many chefs spoil the broth' as they say, but it might save a bit of cash, and money makes the world go round.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

That reinforces what I was saying about this idea of some kind of 'licence' - if gas safe isn't working for gas men how can we expect a copy of it to help us?

As you say it seems to have happened in every job imaginable - the police have PCSOs, ambulancemen have EMTs and fast response bikes, teachers have 'teaching assistants' - all seemingly serving as a separate support job rather than being a training stage like a kitchen porter (washer up) training to be a chef, or a 'mate' training to be a spark. The difference seems to be that domestic installers and 'PAT testers' tend to work independently of electricians with the sole purpose of saving a bit of cash.

If you look at how services like banking have gone, where you have to speak to a different department for every aspect rather than walking into the bank and speaking to the bank manager - it's clear that the idea behind this is so someone can walk in off the street, be given a 5 week course in that and just do that specific thing all day instead of training every aspect of the job.
I can see it getting worse for us - on big jobs I reckon installations might be designed by a designer on a computer, a containment installer will go in and put in the containment, then a wireman will go in and put the wires in, then someone else will do the final connections, then someone else will inspect and test it, instead of having fully qualified sparks doing the lot.
You can imagine the buck-passing that will happen when something goes wrong - 'too many chefs spoil the broth' as they say, but it might save a bit of cash, and money makes the world go round.

well you have always had installers...then inspectors and testers...QS`s n all that but i get your drift Adam....the scenario we have now is theres lots of delegation...its like pass the buck....everyone wants to be recognised...to feel necessary and important.....but no one wants the responsibility that comes with it.....to have to make decisions..but to also have to stand by those decisions and be answerable to them....having different jobs and departments....delegating is a very crafty way of providing a barrier for those at the top whilst giving off the image that those below are in some sort of responsible position together with their own desk and telesales headphones....may even get a high sounding title to go with it..lol...not that it means owt much of the time...like style over substance...hell,.just take a look at the yearly candidates on the apprentice....trust me sir Allen...your wasting your 250K on them clowns....i wouldn`t pay em with brass washers..lol...

 

[Dcf]

Good post this.its nothing new unfortunately. Afew years back I was doing a commercial refit,quite a full on job and I was right up against it.i was speaking to the foreman painter and he was on about 20 quid a week less than me for splattering a wall with emulsion! While I had bus bar chambers micc cabling sub mains fire alarms lift motor rooms heating plant etc etc etc to deal with.i was taught old school and was shown how to fix a Hoover junior to heavy industrial stuff, and I liked it all as this is what was expected from you as a spark. now it is so pigeon holed into sub sections of "specialists" that it's bound to drive respect /wages down. As in I can't do that fire alarm u need a specialist absolute Pish n we all know it.add to the mix the fact that a lot of younger electricians do not seem to have any in depth understanding of what they are actually doing and don't seem to care either and it's no wonder that respect is not due any more.i do think that a few years back the colleges tried to sex up the course a bit cos they couldn't attract young ones to the trade.
an example being I affirm I worked for gave me a 4 th year lad for a couple of days. He was telling me about his project designing a shopping centre install! When was he ever gonna use any of that photo metric data etc ever? Asked him if he had done much conduit and he said I've threaded a bit!!! 4 th year?i spent 2 days showing him the ropes on conduit work n he is probably all the better for it.

 

[gap30]

i know 'sparks' who have never glanded an armoured, made off a pyro, installed a fire alarm/intruder alarm, wouldnt know what a contactor was, have never tested, those who have 'tested' then i check the results and well ...

i aint no superspark and dont claim to be but i have worked with some clowns lol

 

[Darkwood]

i had a lad in yr2 of college he'd done a yrs without onsite experience so i gave hime benefit of doubt, i left him doing basics of fixing a conduit run in plastic when i return he hadn't done anything and his excuse was "i cant work out which way to turn the screw"......gobsmacked !!!! next lad was asked to calculate how many 3's in 24, in answer to a a question about voltage ratings but that aside he answered 6 and when i said 'are you stupid' he said '7'!....... ive now realised the dumbing down of schools and colleges is no longer debatable and we are getting flooded with a generation of ill educated idiots..... i mean 18yrs old and he couldn't do 3 x table but yet he had passed maths in school.......even had one lad who couldn't get the cut plastic trunking in a straight line even with a set-square line so he threw his tools down and put his hand through the hotel window......
ps all above had immediate sacking!

 

[Engineer54]

I still don't get how having another hoop to jump through and another subscription to pay (you don't think this will be free do you?) will be of any help to anyone.
We have the JIB skills card which proves you have a certain level of relevant training, and we have part P who do some kind of regular practical assessment.
You want a "national register" or "electricians' licence"? Well there are already about 6 of the things - take your pick.

Take Smudges example of 2 electricians above - the one least likely to be able to get his 'licence' would be the old guy who trained 40 years ago and thinks he knows it all; his response would most likely be "well I don't need some new-fangled licence to tell me I'm an electrician - I've been doing this job for 40 years!" Then not all electricians will join it, thereby it will only be the ones trying to do things 'by the book' who join the scheme and pay the subscription, and we end up with yet another pointless money-making scam which isn't worth buttons.
As I've said we already have a skills card and we already have practical assessments and a 'competent persons' scheme' in the form of part P - wouldn't it be better to make those work rather than taking pot luck with something new?
Sod's law dictates that this new thing which everyone seems to want will just take all the worst elements of the existing schemes and package them together in one expensive bundle, then after the honest tradesmen who this is supposed to help have shelled out thousands it will be back to square one with some electricians calling for a 'gas safe for electricians'.

Your Wrong!! Having a National Register of Qualified Electricians, you wouldn't need the Scam providers, the JIB or any other body to pay dues too!! If you have the Qualifications and the experience to match, why would you need anything other than your registration ID card??

The difference having a NRQE, is that All electricians will need to be registered in order to ply for any paid work. It also needs to have the teeth to police the system against those that will flout the system, i don't think any of the present voluntary organisations have any teeth at all!!

The one thing you don't want to see happen, is any private profit based companies being contracted in to run the system. It needs to be Government or pseudo government run organisation that pays for it's self and doesn't treat you as captured cash cows, similar to the way a lot of these charity organisations are run...

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Your Wrong!! Having a National Register of Qualified Electricians, you wouldn't need the Scam providers, the JIB or any other body to pay dues too!! If you have the Qualifications and the experience to match, why would you need anything other than your registration ID card??

The difference having a NRQE, is that All electricians will need to be registered in order to ply for any paid work. It also needs to have the teeth to police the system against those that will flout the system, i don't think any of the present voluntary organisations have any teeth at all!!

The one thing you don't want to see happen, is any private profit based companies being contracted in to run the system. It needs to be Government or pseudo government run organisation that pays for it's self and doesn't treat you as captured cash cows, similar to the way a lot of these charity organisations are run...

well you know that i have recently joined a scheme eng....and i wouldn`t blame you for lookin down on it....but its a means to an end....customers arn`t interested in all the LABC jargon...as has been said already on another thread recently..all they want is the work doing to industry standard and a cert issued to em.....sadly in many cases they get neither.....

 

[Darkwood]

The problem with policing the system is it has to be based on the quality of the electrician but since all the registered boards out there get financial gain out of members they will turn many a blind eye to bodgit companies, the flaw is the companies choose what the NICEIC etc visit to evaluate the member but i know so many dodgy practices that just do 4 relevent jobs a year for inspection and cut corners everywhere else, it should be a lottery inspection thus meaning all jobs have to meet standards and try grass a company up for a potentially dangerous practice and all the niceic do is nothing ...... makes sense when kicking them out will lose money... ive had this direct argument with an niceic rep' and put forward a company under their wing who had nearly killed a customer due to poor workmanship as i followed the job on and they replied all our inspections dont suggest what you claim ... they have a good track record to which i said yes to the jobs they dare show you..... sorry sir cant do anything...... NICEIC are good at testing your knowledge and checking your chosen jobs but they are sh...e at using there membership as an advantage to keeping companies in check just because they will lose money kicking ppl out. Think about the board room meetings ....if someone isnt up to our standards we will slap their hand and say naughty but we still need your money for the profit margin so dont do it again!!!!

 

[Engineer54]

The problem with policing the system is it has to be based on the quality of the electrician but since all the registered boards out there get financial gain out of members they will turn many a blind eye to bodgit companies, the flaw is the companies choose what the NICEIC etc visit to evaluate the member but i know so many dodgy practices that just do 4 relevant jobs a year for inspection and cut corners everywhere else, it should be a lottery inspection thus meaning all jobs have to meet standards and try grass a company up for a potentially dangerous practice and all the niceic do is nothing ...... makes sense when kicking them out will lose money... Ive had this direct argument with an niceic rep' and put forward a company under their wing who had nearly killed a customer due to poor workmanship as i followed the job on and they replied all our inspections don't suggest what you claim ... they have a good track record to which i said yes to the jobs they dare show you..... sorry sir cant do anything...... NICEIC are good at testing your knowledge and checking your chosen jobs but they are sh...e at using there membership as an advantage to keeping companies in check just because they will lose money kicking ppl out. Think about the board room meetings ....if someone isnt up to our standards we will slap their hand and say naughty but we still need your money for the profit margin so don't do it again!!!!

Companies can do what they want, if they want to join NICEIC that's up to them!! The NRQE is for registering qualified electricians not companies. There will be no incentive to cast a blind eye to incompetent electricians applying for registration, so if found incompetent, or not up to the required standard, then they fail!!! The NIC is like all the other providers, you would need to be an absolute pillock not to pass one of there so called assessments!!

 

[Darkwood]

Companies can do what they want, if they want to join NICEIC that's up to them!! The NRQE is for registering qualified electricians not companies. There will be no incentive to cast a blind eye to incompetent electricians applying for registration, so if found incompetent, or not up to the required standard, then they fail!!! The NIC is like all the other providers, you would need to be an absolute pillock not to pass one of there so called assessments!!

In theory your point is good in the eye of our clients/customers the NICEIC is the bees knees so you can argue the credibility of any other scheme or membership till blue in the face but honestly how many of the general public will if they are cautious see the NRQE as a guide.... unfortunately with all the advertising etc Part P is the only thing the domestic gen' know.... glad im industrial.# But see and agree with your point but it just dont work like that.

 

[Engineer54]

In theory your point is good in the eye of our clients/customers the NICEIC is the bees knees so you can argue the credibility of any other scheme or membership till blue in the face but honestly how many of the general public will if they are cautious see the NRQE as a guide.... unfortunately with all the advertising etc Part P is the only thing the domestic gen' know.... glad i'm industrial.# But see and agree with your point but it just dont work like that.

Customers won't need to know anything about Pat Pee, NICEIC or any of the other providers or bodies, all they need to see is the electricians registration ID card!! As far as i know, none of the providers even issue ID cards to there registered members, so the ID card alone, has to be a beneficial customer safe guard, than the system you have now.

 

[Darkwood]

Customers won't need to know anything about Pat Pee, NICEIC or any of the other providers or bodies, all they need to see is the electricians registration ID card!! As far as i know, none of the providers even issue ID cards to there registered members, so the ID card alone, has to be a beneficial customer safe guard, than the system you have now.

As i said before agree and all good in a perfect world but look at kids with id cards in pubs printed out and posted within 24hrs look like legit driving licence or proof of age cards, its like the 1 in 30 pound coins you handle is fake but you cant tell unless pre-educated so o matter what you bring in it will be flooded with the fake and scammers, the only way ive ever found to be useful is word of mouth and high personel standards, i get random phone calls now from all over yorkshire from word of mouth and ive never advertised in the 3 yrs ive been self-employed.... ppl are realising on the good word again as trust in what they see is losing credibilty more n more.

 

[Darkwood]

Dont get me wrong E54 its just how its happening and although it would be ideal what you say and yes will go with it 100% but reality is not the same, im talking at a domestic customer level here as bigger companies do look for the recognised memberships btut domestic wise only thing some recognise is Part P and will even choose it against a NICEIC registration, its the way the cowboy shows have advertised it and promoted Part P.... Just remember the general public watch TV and dont read the pro' electricians mag.

 

[skirby]

Thanks for the therapy guys. It's been a an education reading your comments and you've given me a chuckle. It appears to me that the electrical industry has de-valued itself and we are left with the consequences.

Like many of you I'm often astounded by the lack of knowledge shown by some "qualified" electricians that I've come across. I've always taken a pride in my ability to tackle most types of electrical work using common sense and learnt skills which were passed down through several generations of electricians. That could be the missing link in the training (and de-valuing) of many modern electricians. Even the best training centres can't give you the same depth of knowledge as learning from a veteran sparkie. That said, many would now wonder why you should need a depth of knowledge anyway!

Upgrading my qualifications has made me a better electrician but it won't guarantee me a job or a good wage. As many of your views have confirmed- "It's a sign of the times, and of the future".
You've helped me realise that I'm not alone in my dissatisfaction with my de-valued disposition. Perhaps I've simply been doing the job for too long!
Thanks again for your comments and your therapy.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Thanks for the therapy guys. It's been a an education reading your comments and you've given me a chuckle. It appears to me that the electrical industry has de-valued itself and we are left with the consequences.

Like many of you I'm often astounded by the lack of knowledge shown by some "qualified" electricians that I've come across. I've always taken a pride in my ability to tackle most types of electrical work using common sense and learnt skills which were passed down through several generations of electricians. That could be the missing link in the training (and de-valuing) of many modern electricians. Even the best training centres can't give you the same depth of knowledge as learning from a veteran sparkie. That said, many would now wonder why you should need a depth of knowledge anyway!

Upgrading my qualifications has made me a better electrician but it won't guarantee me a job or a good wage. As many of your views have confirmed- "It's a sign of the times, and of the future".
You've helped me realise that I'm not alone in my dissatisfaction with my de-valued disposition. Perhaps I've simply been doing the job for too long!
Thanks again for your comments and your therapy.

is it our fault?? ....Hmm? no one likes to admit guilt do they ....lol...but theres a thing called stealth n all......

 

[Welchyboy]

Dave 85 I agree with you totally, I earn more than most of the trades I work with, (except probably heating engineers)and they are allways winding me up about my new van and my prices, but hey.... They are still using me regularly and have done for years, because I leave them with a finished job that's worth the money

I think the JIB card is also a good idea, just shame about the rates, no 5 week wonder is goin to get one of those in a hurry, it just really irks me that all these suppose 'proper sparks moan soooo much about only getting a trainee card and having to do an NVQ 3, FFS JUST DO IT AND STOP MOANING ITS EASY!!
If you regularly do agency work and big site installs I don't know how you get on without one as alot of agency's require them, and they mostly dont stick to the rates they pay more, they use it as a sign of competance.

then again maybe that's why so many are in and out of work and feel so threatened by an ex-office worker whose done a few weeks electrical training!

Sad fact of the modern world is that it is constantly changing and advancing and to stay with the game you will have to keep re- training throughout your whole career even though companies will use it to make money from us, it's a case of go with it and be a commodity or get left behind!

 

[Des 56]

A JIb card being held up as proof of competence ? as old Ebeneezer would say "Humbug"

Well,I have never in my life, held or needed a Jib card ( or even an "How to wear an hard hat Cis card" or whatever pathetic piece of paper they now require) and I have worked on sites large and small and in all sectors
In my self employed years,the Jib card has been completely irrelevant

The Jib card may have at one time, when it was introduced, became a yardstick for proof of competence
That is no longer the case,which is evident by the recent revolt by the large employers
At one time,membership of the ETU was by far the most recognised and accepted demonstration of some sort of aquisition which deemed a person an electrician

The world we live in is driven almost uniquely by low cost service, whatever industry you are in
If the item or the person can produce that outcome,any other factors/ like in our case competence. its just an added burden which only comes to light if there is dispute between the customer and the service provider (that is the reason there are so many issues with fast track sparks)

The market wants low cost,the finance is not there for adequate all round training, aka apprenticeships, because of those low costs, so its left to the individual to find his way.

The consequence is sparks trained with a narrow learning curve,mainly domestic installation
Changes in commercial and industrial installation are being pressured to follow this narrow skill base,hence the future disintegration of the Jib flag

JIb is not the answer,its like me,its best years have passed by
Electricians are not "being" devalued,they "have" been devalued and I mean status not monetary

 

[skirby]

Yes you definately need to keep up or be left behind in our game. I've never had a JIB card, always lucky to find my own work and do some subbying for small firms over the years, but I definately think it's a good idea to have one when looking for jobs etc. My lad is in his last year of training and I've told him to go for AM2, JIB, 17th, Testing... the lot. (Even though I've got experience, maybe I'd still need to get JIB card for agencies etc. ?)
About the moaning- I find having a good grumble every now and then does help release tension and I there's a lot of it about. Especially in this thread. High Tension from electricians. Sorry!

 

[Guitarist]

As with a lot of "education" these days, I think that many so-called electricians out there have been instructed enough to pass an exam, not given an all-round apprenticeship, hence many have never come across the practicalities of how to gland off swa or understand how a contactor works. We now even have Government Ministers referring to training courses which last a few weeks as "apprenticeships".
Maybe if we had a few people in Government who had actually experienced an apprenticeship, we might be able reverse this "dumbing-down" trend.
It really scares me that someone can go from stacking shelves to being an "electrician" in a few months and then go into peoples' homes. This has to be stopped.

 

[Engineer54]

As with a lot of "education" these days, I think that many so-called electricians out there have been instructed enough to pass an exam, not given an all-round apprenticeship, hence many have never come across the practicalities of how to gland off swa or understand how a contactor works. We now even have Government Ministers referring to training courses which last a few weeks as "apprenticeships".
Maybe if we had a few people in Government who had actually experienced an apprenticeship, we might be able reverse this "dumbing-down" trend.
It really scares me that someone can go from stacking shelves to being an "electrician" in a few months and then go into peoples' homes. This has to be stopped.

It's a few WEEKS mate, not a few months!!! I hope that scares you a little more!! lol!!
The question needs to be asked of these so-called politicians, would they be happy having one of these guy's that was stacking shelves a few weeks ago, coming into there home, and working on on THEIR homes electrical installation?? I suspect, most definitely NOT!!!

 

[madmac]

Very interesting thread and some good replies although I think you're all missing the point.
My thread covers all the issues spoke about on here (SMA's and the deskilling of our industry).
The reason why we are under valued in both monetary and respect criteria, is because of greed!!!
The training course providers, the scam regulatory bodies, the agencies leeching of us and of course the major electrical companies that have had a deskilling agenda for decades!
I understand most guys on this forum are working in domestic/commercial and are on the most part self employed businesses, however, we all used to come from the same place once upon a time i.e. an industry wide recognised apprenticeship that gave us the basic/core skills to work in all sectors of industry.
It has been mentioned a few times on here about an "electricians licensing scheme", well, we already have that, it's called the JIB/SJIB.
And before we slaughter the JIB's, remember, the the JIB's boards are made up of 50/50 representation from the employers representatives and the electricians representatives.
I.E. ECA/SELECT for the employers and Unite the Union for the electricians and the JIB board are the referees.
The JIB/SJIB are supposed to be non-profit making organisations ( there is a question mark over this and we are in the middle of trying to modernise the set up), The companies sign up to the "National Agreement for the Electrical Contracting Industry" and agree to abide by the rules which guarantee our wage rates and terms and conditions of employment and the men pay for a CSCS/ECS JIB/SJIB card and have to prove competence with apprentice papers or equivalent and also agree to abide by the rules which is to the employers advantage as they can tender for jobs knowing they have a quality, happy and stable workforce!
Of course, this is really only suited to the commercial/light industrial/heavy industrial/HV and other such like industries and is harder to involve the domestic sector.
But at the end of the day, we can all keep on moaning and lamenting days gone by or we can get active and voice our concerns and make a difference by joining the union and making this industry work for us again!!!
It's that simple really, if every spark in Britain was IN the union, we would be able to organise the training/apprenticeships and all the other issues that are relevant to becoming and staying a qualified electrician and being paid the fair wage we know we are worth. The card,scheme,qualifications and apprentice training are already there and always have been, we have just taken our eyes off the ball, that's all!!!

 

[Welchyboy]

A JIb card being held up as proof of competence ? as old Ebeneezer would say "Humbug"

Well,I have never in my life, held or needed a Jib card ( or even an "How to wear an hard hat Cis card" or whatever pathetic piece of paper they now require) and I have worked on sites large and small and in all sectors
In my self employed years,the Jib card has been completely irrelevant

The Jib card may have at one time, when it was introduced, became a yardstick for proof of competence
That is no longer the case,which is evident by the recent revolt by the large employers
At one time,membership of the ETU was by far the most recognised and accepted demonstration of some sort of aquisition which deemed a person an electrician

The world we live in is driven almost uniquely by low cost service, whatever industry you are in
If the item or the person can produce that outcome,any other factors/ like in our case competence. its just an added burden which only comes to light if there is dispute between the customer and the service provider (that is the reason there are so many issues with fast track sparks)

The market wants low cost,the finance is not there for adequate all round training, aka apprenticeships, because of those low costs, so its left to the individual to find his way.

The consequence is sparks trained with a narrow learning curve,mainly domestic installation
Changes in commercial and industrial installation are being pressured to follow this narrow skill base,hence the future disintegration of the Jib flag

JIb is not the answer,its like me,its best years have passed by
Electricians are not "being" devalued,they "have" been devalued and I mean status not monetary

Not all the economy is driven by low cost, cheap, cheap, cheap!

it depends on your customer base and your target market, if that was true there would be no marks and spencer only asda, there would be no porsche or ferrari only ford and fiat, there wouldnt be any nice resturants or fine wines it would be fish and chips and supermarket cider

People are looking for value for money!, as teasco have just found out they dropped the quality of their products to warrant their price reductions and look
how look at their recent sales drop

i know this is a bit general but is true in all forms of basic business, some people will allways shop bargain basement, just dont get them as your customers!

and sorry but right now the JIB card is the closest thing we have to any kind of definition of competance in this industry, it just needs enforcing across the board as a licence(not including the rates, just a measure of qualification) and Part P scrapped, job done!

i havent used mine since becoming selfemployed years ago but have allways kept it renewed as if the worst happened and i ended up on agencies i know i wouldnt get told no anywhere, or get paid as a trainee!

 

[oldboy]

Devalued? Undermined? Exploited?

Welcome to the wonderful world of deregulation, minimum wages, profiteering companies & agencies, the payroll scam, short termism, no rights at work, sod you Jack, I'm alright society where no one gives a s**t about anyone else.

This is happening everywhere in all walks of industry & society!!

I used to be apathetic, now I just don't care.

 

[Des 56]

Not all the economy is driven by low cost, cheap, cheap, cheap!

it depends on your customer base and your target market, if that was true there would be no marks and spencer only asda, there would be no porsche or ferrari only ford and fiat, there wouldnt be any nice resturants or fine wines it would be fish and chips and supermarket cider

People are looking for value for money!, as teasco have just found out they dropped the quality of their products to warrant their price reductions and look
how look at their recent sales drop

i know this is a bit general but is true in all forms of basic business, some people will allways shop bargain basement, just dont get them as your customers!

and sorry but right now the JIB card is the closest thing we have to any kind of definition of competance in this industry, it just needs enforcing across the board as a licence(not including the rates, just a measure of qualification) and Part P scrapped, job done!

i havent used mine since becoming selfemployed years ago but have allways kept it renewed as if the worst happened and i ended up on agencies i know i wouldnt get told no anywhere, or get paid as a trainee!

I dont agree with your assessment,however you have presented it well and you may be right
The ETU was by far a much better measure of the electricians status .it was a matter of pride to be a member,entry could be difficult to obtain ,it was tarnished so badly in the Chappel days that recovery to its former status could never happen

The industry JIb agreement is the only measure available at the moment,I agree,it is not however the arbitor of who or what is an electrican

There are so many electricians who neither work in that sector or carry out that type of work,that an organisation with what appears to be a very fragile future, ie the JIb, its not the yardstick for assessment of a spark in the future

It may be the best tool at the moment as an assessment of an electrician doing installation only,but some sort of government registration system is needed to cover all who work with electrics,branding and levels need to be compiled for any future structure for it to be an all encompassing answer to this industry

It will however never happen,this industry will continue on its downward slope with confusion and greed and mainly low cost as its driving force