Death penalty

[trev]

To the best of my knowledge we've never had this out on here. So, Pope: Death Penalty Represents 'Failure'
The leader of the world's catholics has spoken out against it and if you're one of them there's the concept of Papal Infallibility as he has a direct line to god (allegedly)
Opinions please my learned friends.
I'm against it (I'll bet none of you are surprised)

 

[Paul.M]

Death penalty for certain crimes as a deterrent for others thinking about committing the same act. Murder, rape and anything to do with kids in the same respect.

Controversial topic, this should be interesting?

 

[trev]

There's the argument that if it were a deterrent then no murders would ever happen though Paul

 

[telectrix]

asa paul, but guilt must be without a shadow of doubt, not beyond reasonable doubt. after all, the death penalty is irreversible, unless you were born in a stable in bethlehem.

 

[trev]

Barry George was convicted beyond all reasonable doubt Tel. A lot of forensic evidence was presented to the court and he was found guilty. Under the UK system he would have hanged after three Sundays had passed from the date of sentencing

 

[telectrix]

who's barry george?

 

[ian.settle1]

who's barry george?

The bloke who was supposed to have killed Jill Dando

 

[Diddy]

Against it, As much as some things sicken me to the core. I support less prison in general BUT when something merits prison then the convicted should serve a full sentence with a hard regime with forced education/training AND psychiatric help throughout their sentence. I also like the models of prisons where they almost fund themselves with agriculture and farming and the like. I also think reintegration into society is the most overlooked and under funded part of the penal system.

 

[plugsandsparks]

I am struggling with the death penalty being a deterrent to certain crimes that would attract it. I don't think it is but have nothing to reference this. As a form of retribution, I am uncomfortable with it and would never vote for it. The other thing of course is that our police / criminal justice system is not perfect so its always possible we could kill one of citizens in error. It is were it belongs ( confined to history)

 

[Diddy]

I think the proof that the death penalty doesn't work as a deterrent is the USA's crime rate/murder rate compared as a percentage to ours. BTW you could substitute the usa for any other country with the death penalty. Most murders are heat of the moment by someone known to the victim. Im afraid in the heat of the moment people don't stop and think "bloody hell I might swing/fry for this"....they normally think that way on death row, bit too late then.

 

[Guest77]

For it when it comes to child rapists and terrorists, I would have loved to see Jimmy Saville elecrocuted.

 

[Pete999]

As others have said, Murder, anything to do with harming Children, Rape, Terrorism, could merit the death penalty, but and it's a big but the guilt would need to be beyond any doubt.

When you think of the lives that are all but over, or ruined as a result of some of these crimes, the red mist comes down "hang him, shot the biiger" we say, but easier said than done, will it deter people? you only have to look at America to get that answer.

I have worked in countries where retribution for less serious crimes is swift and brutal, I have witnessed it first hand, up close and real, it's not nice.

There would be no reprieve for the guilty, no retrials.

 

[Octopus]

Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime....

As far as I remember, 90% of crime is committed by about 10% of the criminals - so repeat offenders should have progressively long sentences.

As for the death penalty - hum... never sure that actually helps as sooner or later somebody who's innocent is a victim.

 

[ian.settle1]

For it when it comes to child rapists and terrorists, I would have loved to see Jimmy Saville elecrocuted.

That would have been to quick for him, should have had a red hot poker shoved up his jacksy like Edward II

 

[GMES]

asa paul, but guilt must be without a shadow of doubt, not beyond reasonable doubt. after all, the death penalty is irreversible, unless you were born in a stable in bethlehem.

or called Ukesrail, essexboy or essex he's been risen from the dead at least 4 times!!

 

[Octopus]

or called Ukesrail, essexboy or essex he's been risen from the dead at least 4 times!!

He's alive and well on another forum.. only time will tell if he can remain a member!

 

[Engineer54]

So what would you do with someone like JIHAD JOHN?? Why the hell should we keep these sort of people for the rest of their life at a horrendous cost to the country?? All while they brainwash others into becoming carbon copies of themselves!!..,

Personally no need for any execution ceremony/procedure, ...on the due court assigned date, taken to a tiled room and a single bullet to the back of the head.... Sorted!!

Works pretty well over here in China!! lol!

Some people are just pure Evil, that just have no place in this world, so why prolong the the inevitable!!

 

[Octopus]

So what would you do with someone like JIHAD JOHN?? Why the hell should we keep these sort of people for the rest of their life at a horrendous cost to the country?? All while they brainwash others into becoming carbon copies of themselves!!..,

Personally no need for any execution ceremony/procedure, ...on the due court assigned date, taken to a tiled room and a single bullet to the back of the head.... Sorted!!

Works pretty well over here in China!! lol!

Some people are just pure Evil, that just have no place in this world, so why prolong the the inevitable!!

Do the Chinese bother with that step?

 

[trev]

So what would you do with someone like JIHAD JOHN?? Why the hell should we keep these sort of people for the rest of their life at a horrendous cost to the country?? All while they brainwash others into becoming carbon copies of themselves!!..,

Personally no need for any execution ceremony/procedure, ...on the due court assigned date, taken to a tiled room and a single bullet to the back of the head.... Sorted!!

Works pretty well over here in China!! lol!

Some people are just pure Evil, that just have no place in this world, so why prolong the the inevitable!!

There are always cases that can be cited like him. What would you say to the family of Barry George had he been executed?

 

[Engineer54]

Do the Chinese bother with that step?

According to the Mrs, the condemned have automatic right of appeal (in most cases). Often the sentence is carried out at the end of a failed appeal hearing, certainly within 2 or 3 days of that hearing...

 

[derek]

So what would you do with someone like JIHAD JOHN?? Why the hell should we keep these sort of people for the rest of their life at a horrendous cost to the country?? All while they brainwash others into becoming carbon copies of themselves!!..,

Personally no need for any execution ceremony/procedure, ...on the due court assigned date, taken to a tiled room and a single bullet to the back of the head.... Sorted!!

Works pretty well over here in China!! lol!

Some people are just pure Evil, that just have no place in this world, so why prolong the the inevitable!!

If it was done by UK law you can guarantee that by the time all the appeals process had been gone through more money would have been spent than it would cost to lock them up for a lifetime. This has proven to be the case in the US.
I'm against the death penalty as the judicial system is not perfect and the police will often lie if it means getting a conviction.

 

[Engineer54]

There are always cases that can be cited like him. What would you say to the family of Barry George had he been executed?

Eh, Sorry??

No, seriously when you have a person caught on camera bang to rights, without a shadow of a doubt of guilt.... I'd have no hesitatation whatsoever signing a death warrant....

 

[Leesparkykent]

If it was done by UK law you can guarantee that by the time all the appeals process had been gone through more money would have been spent than it would cost to lock them up for a lifetime. This has proven to be the case in the US.
I'm against the death penalty as the judicial system is not perfect and the police will often lie if it means getting a conviction.

Bang on!

 

[Engineer54]

If it was done by UK law you can guarantee that by the time all the appeals process had been gone through more money would have been spent than it would cost to lock them up for a lifetime. This has proven to be the case in the US.
I'm against the death penalty as the judicial system is not perfect and the police will often lie if it meansgetting a conviction.

Heard that argument many times over, but it's always a different matter when some evil ba***d without a shred of conscience or regret kills a family member for no reason....

 

[trev]

Eh, Sorry??

No, seriously when you have a person caught on camera bang to rights, without a shadow of a doubt of guilt.... I'd have no hesitatation whatsoever signing a death warrant....

You miss my point. Barry George (among many others that could be named) was found guilty by a court on the grounds of the weight of evidence against him, some of it circumstantial, some of it forensic but the point is that he would have hanged some three weeks after being found guilty.
What would you say to his family after it was found that some of the evidence against him was fabricated and he was found to be not guilty of the crime for which he would have hanged?

 

[derek]

I'm against the state executing people, that doesn't mean I wouldn't kill someone who hurt my family.

 

[Barry White]

We are all capable of murder and I dont condone a hanging for that, but where its proved without doubt that someone planned and executed murders (serial killers etc) why should we pay to keep them alive Ian Brady has cost us over 14 million + his legal costs and he is guilty without doubt
Would I pust the button ? with pleasure

 

[plugsandsparks]

If anyone can remember a Brighton Hotel that was bombed, well it was full of Tories inc my favourite. Anyway they caught the bomber, he served 14 years then was released as part of the peace process. His ultimate boss managed to get a seat in parliament.... Funny old world isn't it.

 

[trev]

If anyone can remember a Brighton Hotel that was bombed, well it was full of Tories inc my favourite. Anyway they caught the bomber, he served 14 years then was released as part of the peace process. His ultimate boss managed to get a seat in parliament.... Funny old world isn't it.

There was a pub in Guildford that was bombed, the bombers were caught and would have hanged. Later they were found not guilty.
Good job we didn't have a death penalty then.

 

[Guest77]

That would have been to quick for him, should have had a red hot poker shoved up his jacksy like Edward II

Or put in a 30ft square room with all the mothers of the children and disabled children he sexually abused, just him and them and their nails, he would be stripped to the bone and die in agony, I would celebrate with a pint afterwards, the man is scum, end of.

 

[Octopus]

There was a pub in Guildford that was bombed, the bombers were caught and would have hanged. Later they were found not guilty.
Good job we didn't have a death penalty then.

Mind you the IRA weren't exactly squeaky clean when it came to many of their autrocities!

 

[plugsandsparks]

There was a pub in Guildford that was bombed, the bombers were caught and would have hanged. Later they were found not guilty.
Good job we didn't have a death penalty then.

Ah, the old "we know he's guilty, he has form you know" ....."all we need is the evidence" , queue stitch up... lol

 

[Besoeker]

I'm against the death penalty.
I'm old enough to remember the Derek Bentley Case.
We've had the Guildford Four, the Birmingham Six, and other cases where there was a wrongful conviction.

If the guilt or otherwise is determined by a jury of twelve people with no particular qualifications other than being between certain ages and on the electoral roll, how can we be sure that they will get it right?

We can't. And, as has been pointed out, the death penalty is irreversible.

 

[Des 56]

There was also Timothy Evans who was framed by Christie,it seems there were many mistakes that could not be righted and that's why as much as my instincts say hang the bstds, my reasoning says not whilst the sentence may be wrong,and that is always

As a add on
Prison however is another matter

No Human rights whilst inside
Min 12 hour working day
No leisure whatsoever (not even a book),just time to sit and reflect on the crime and look forward to the next 12 hour shift

The sentence will have been deemed a success if the prisoner comes out vowing that he would rather die than go back inside
Rehabilitation will be for the prisoner to concern himself with,that should not be societies problem

 

[rapparee]

Ah, the old "we know he's guilty, he has form you know" ....."all we need is the evidence" , queue stitch up... lol

That actually happened quite recently brian shivers a man convicted of the masserene barracks shooting in 2009, he has since been released and apparently totally vindicated.

 

[rapparee]

As a add on
Prison however is another matter

No Human rights whilst inside
Min 12 hour working day
No leisure whatsoever (not even a book),just time to sit and reflect on the crime and look forward to the next 12 hour shift

The sentence will have been deemed a success if the prisoner comes out vowing that he would rather die than go back inside
Rehabilitation will be for the prisoner to concern himself with,that should not be societies problem

The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons.

 

[Adam W]

there's the concept of Papal Infallibility as he has a direct line to god (allegedly)

I seem to recall the Vatican backpedalled on the idea of Papal Infallibility after the last Pope made less than complimentary comments about the Islamic prophet Mohammed. Whether his comments were 'true' or not isn't the point - going public with the comments risked sparking an angry backlash.
This demonstrates that everyone gets it wrong sometimes, even those who are supposedly infallible; if the Pope can get it wrong then so can a judge sentencing someone to the death penalty. Wrongly sentencing someone to the death penalty would surely constitute murder, and therefore the death penalty? But then new evidence could come to light proving the guilt of the person originally convicted, and the judge who sentenced the other judge faces trial, and it all gets a bit bloodthirsty.

There will always be people saying rape is wrong, and all rapists should be branded equally, even face the death penalty. I think it's important to realise not all rapes include violence, often it's a question of consent, which as long as it can be retrospectively withdrawn will cast doubt over many convictions. Again if it's found that a woman withdrew her consent and cried rape, sending an innocent man to his death, she could also then face the death penalty.

I'm not saying the Pope is right because he's the Pope, but I happen to agree with him on this.

 

[trev]

There was also Timothy Evans who was framed by Christie,it seems there were many mistakes that could not be righted and that's why as much as my instincts say hang the bstds, my reasoning says not whilst the sentence may be wrong,and that is always

As a add on
Prison however is another matter

No Human rights whilst inside
Min 12 hour working day
No leisure whatsoever (not even a book),just time to sit and reflect on the crime and look forward to the next 12 hour shift

The sentence will have been deemed a success if the prisoner comes out vowing that he would rather die than go back inside
Rehabilitation will be for the prisoner to concern himself with,that should not be societies problem

So what do you say about certain european countries where the emphasis on a prisoner is education and rehabilitation? Stats prove that these countries have a very low re-offending rate

 

[rapparee]

This demonstrates that everyone gets it wrong sometimes, even those who are supposedly infallible; if the Pope can get it wrong then so can a judge sentencing someone to the death penalty. Wrongly sentencing someone to the death penalty would surely constitute murder, and therefore the death penalty? But then new evidence could come to light proving the guilt of the person originally convicted, and the judge who sentenced the other judge faces trial, and it all gets a bit bloodthirsty.

Danish, Norwegian and Swedish) have a word, the Swedish variant of which isjustitiemord, which literally translates as "justice murder." The term exists in several languages and was originally used for cases where the accused was convicted, executed, and later cleared after death. With capital punishment decreasing, the expression has acquired an extended meaning, namely any conviction for a crime not committed by the convicted. The retention of the term "murder" represents both universal abhorrence against wrongful convictions and awareness of how destructive wrongful convictions are. Some*Slavic languageshave also the word (justičná vražda*in Slovak,*justiční vražda*in Czech) which literally translates as "justice murder",*


Lifted from wiki

 

[Des 56]

So what do you say about certain european countries where the emphasis on a prisoner is education and rehabilitation? Stats prove that these countries have a very low re-offending rate

Nothing whatsoever,what they do is their business

I do however feel that society makes rules that we all live by,if we don't agree with a law.as a society we get rid or change that law

Doing wrong is a criminals decision.
I have heard pleas over many years about deprivation and inequality and the like being the cause and that the criminal is just a product of society
Being poor or from a disadvantaged family or the like is no excuse at all, ever

If a crime is committed,the penalty must be very severe in all cases,it should also be very very early in a criminals career
I happen to think that a person is the decision maker, when it comes to crime, its their decision to continue with crime or to learn that it does not pay

I have very strong feelings about criminality and have no time at all for concerns of rehabilitation by the state, or excuses of why a criminal acts,I believe punishment is the only tool that will curb the ever growing capacity of the criminal to commit those acts

 

[trev]

Des I never claimed that criminality is anything other than a personal choice. However, these countries who place an emphasis on educating and rehabilitating the convicted have a lower recidivism rate than those who solely emphasise punishment.
A guy I know went to prison when he was young and stupid, he realised that being there was the punishment and that he could use his time behind bars to his own good. He knuckled down and hit the books, very, very hard. He's now a productive member of society, he's living a good life and is a very good father to his kids who are pretty firmly on the straight and narrow.

 

[rapparee]

I'd also be weary of following the americans and their prison industrial complex, where prisoners are used as slave labour in private institutions placed there by a corrupt judge

 

[trev]

More on that. I'd be very wary of the privately run prison organisations which will undoubtedly campaign for stiffer sentences for minor crimes. I don't think it'll be a good thing for our society if our prison system were ran for profit by companies.
Prison ran systems like Gordon Ramsey and a few others tried to introduce I have no problem with

 

[ian.settle1]

What do you think about countries like Indonesia which gives the death penalty to people who are court carrying illegal drugs in large quantities?

 

[trev]

I don't agree with the death penalty no matter what. However, if you're stupid enough to carry any item into a country which prohibits it then you pay the penalty prescribed by their law and no amount of intervention by the Foreign Office is likely to change that

 

[Diddy]

What do you think about countries like Indonesia which gives the death penalty to people who are court carrying illegal drugs in large quantities?

Tough one as they have every right to "protect" their people in whatever manner they see fit. If we as a country do not approve then we can simply cease to trade with them. Funny old thing drugs and the smugglers ect. They are supplying a demand, I have been around a bit and have never been "pushed" into doing drugs nor have I witnessed anyone being forced in any way....That said
these people do import "misery" for some. I actually know some dealers (in a past life officer') and they are ordinary people who operate outside the law. So yes they are breaking the law...but no they are not forcing anyone nor standing outside school gates...I have often wondered about our own justice system which has a man who has killed someone out in less than ten years (I know two guys in this bracket...not friends lol) and the guy caught with a kilo of cocaine who will be lucky to get out before 20 years....Who is the biggest danger to society ? The law says its the dealer....

 

[Diddy]

Further to what Des wrote...I could not disagree more to be fair. Rehabilitation IS in ALL our interests. I would rather a violent offender comes out of prison totally rehabilitated rather than angry and vengeful. The system may have got it's revenge but at what cost ? How high does the reoffending rate have to get before people realise that the current regime does not work on many levels.
I still think sentences are all over the place too. People slashing innocents every weekend - most will escape prison if they get to court. Steal a diamond ring from a posh jewelry and you are off for a stretch. The biggest one for me is the crazy system where we can and do send people to prison for watching live tv without a licence.....The BBC should have to pick up the bill there.

 

[Adam W]

The biggest one for me is the crazy system where we can and do send people to prison for watching live tv without a licence.....The BBC should have to pick up the bill there.

Do people get sent to prison for watching telly without a licence?

There was an article in the local paper where a motorcyclist in his 60s was speeding down an empty dual carriageway on a Saturday morning, then slammed on the brakes when he saw a speed camera van lurking at the side of the road. He came off his bike and died at the scene. Comments at the bottom of the article seemed to suggest it was his fault for speeding in the first place. The death penalty for driving too fast seems extreme to me.

 

[Diddy]

Do people get sent to prison for watching telly without a licence?

Between these dates - [FONT=Georgia, Century, Times, serif]January 2011 to March 2013 107 people were sent to prison for not paying tv licence. Don't know the most recent figures....we had 180.000 people up in court in 2012 for the same offence. It should be civil nor criminal, just keep taking the tv away if caught, that would probably be more effective.[/FONT]

 

[Adam W]

Between these dates - January 2011 to March 2013 107 people were sent to prison for not paying tv licence. Don't know the most recent figures....we had 180.000 people up in court in 2012 for the same offence. It should be civil nor criminal, just keep taking the tv away if caught, that would probably be more effective.

I always thought you just got a fine. They say it's 'up to £1000' but from what I've heard it's more like a couple of hundred quid.