Din rail connectors linked?

[uksparks]

Hi,

ok to follow on from my 12v relay question, I know how I want it all connected.

The next part of the jigsaw is that I need to mount everything on a dinrail.

i presume you can get these, what I need is din rail connectors where I can join say 6 together so that I have 6 common neutrals or lives etc?

do you know what I mean and if so can you pointe in the direction of where to get them.

i have never panel building if this is what you could vaguely call it do not clued up on what's available.

 

[uksparks]

I take it you can do it with these wago connectors?

https://www.************/shop/topjob-din-rail-mounted-terminals/2000-series

 

[trev]

Not sure I understand the question Tom.

 

[amlu]

wago topjob are nice, you stick them next to each other on a din rail and form required connections with insulated jumpers. use an end plate at the end of connector block section. have a look on cpc or rs website for available option, there is a lot of them including fused and disconnector ones.

 

[amlu]

[video=youtube;178VcP0Ui8s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=178VcP0Ui8s[/video]

 

[uksparks]

Not sure I understand the question Tom.

Ill draw it then you will see.

basically what I'm going to do is run probably 6 x 4 core flex into an enclosure. Each of these will be from a pir feeding one of more lights.

live, neutral, switched live and earth.

in my enclosure I will have my relay that will apply power to the switched lives coming in to the enclosure.

slme how I need to connect probably 6 neutrals, 6 lives, 6 earths and 6 switched lives.

then in the enclosure I'm going to have din mounted switches for over riding each light too.

 

[uksparks]

wago topjob are nice, you stick them next to each other on a din rail and form required connections with insulated jumpers. use an end plate at the end of connector block section. have a look on cpc or rs website for available option, there is a lot of them including fused and disconnector ones.

I can only see the wago ones that go 4 ways.

 

[amlu]

see the video. to have more terminals than available on 1block you use 2 blocks and link them with a jumper. job done.

 

[uksparks]

[video=youtube;178VcP0Ui8s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=178VcP0Ui8s[/video]

I now know exactly what I need thanks!

 

[uksparks]

Ok so whilst plotting this out, it has occurred to me that if I have all common switched lives, when a pir detects something it will put power back down the switched live back to the common rail and switch on all the other lights when I don't want them on.

so... Can I put a diode inline with the switched lives in my enclosure?

 

[davesparks]

Yes you can put a diode in, but all it will do is cause all of the other lights to come on at half power due to getting half of the AC wave.

You'll need a contactor in each switchlive for the override if you want to override seperate circuits with the one alarm output.
Or if the load is small enough you could use 2x 13pin relays.

 

[uksparks]

Let me just get my head around that a moment.

 

[uksparks]

Yes you can put a diode in, but all it will do is cause all of the other lights to come on at half power due to getting half of the AC wave.

You'll need a contactor in each switchlive for the override if you want to override seperate circuits with the one alarm output.
Or if the load is small enough you could use 2x 13pin relays.

Yes I see what you mean, hmm this is getting pricey!

 

[uksparks]

Actually I wouldn't need a contractor for each switched live would I as you could just use a 4 pole for example and put each switched live through that as they are not common are they so if each pir activated it's not going to power up the others but if the alarm trigger pulled it in then they would all become live.

what do you think?

 

[davesparks]

How you go about getting a contactor in to each of your 6 switched lives is up to you, you could use a 6 pole, 3x 2 pole, 2x 3 pole, 1x 4 pole + 1x 2 pole.

Personally I would go with whatever the wholesaler had on the shelf.

 

[uksparks]

I think I have cracked it then by the looks of it! Im quite pleased with this!

Thanks very much for all your help everyone!

 

[davesparks]

And the diode thing,

Diodes block current in one direction and allow it to flow in the other, so on AC a diode will act like a standard dimmer set at 50% and block half of the waveform.

 

[DPG]

And the diode thing,

Diodes block current in one direction and allow it to flow in the other, so on AC a diode will act like a standard dimmer set at 50% and block half of the waveform.

Some hoovers (sorry, vacuum cleaners) used this method for the 2 speed switch. Daz

 

[uksparks]

How does this look as an idea? Tell me I'm mad and it's overkill.

 

[uksparks]

The only snag I see with this is there's no way of individually switching each light feed. Can you get anything smaller than an MCB to switch them?

 

[davesparks]

Jesus Christ! You can't have the permanent live from one OCPD and the switched live from another OCPD, this is the bare basics of electrical installation!

And you've got a 2 pole relay already so why use 2 seperate relays?

 

[uksparks]

Oops I see that, I didn't think it looked right! Doh I am more than aware that you can't do that!!

 

[uksparks]

I didn't mean for it to be like that, I'll redraw it now

 

[davesparks]

Draw it properly as a circuit diagram and it will make a lot more sense to you than drawings where everything is just rectangles with wiggly lines joining them together.

And it might save you from digging yourself into a hole on here!

 

[uksparks]

Try this

 

[uksparks]

I tend to draw things as I see it rather than a schematic that will probably confuse me

 

[davesparks]

That drawing is far more confusing than a half sensible circuit diagram. You've still just got a bunch of rectangles with a load of lines joining them together. There's no way you can actually wire anything from that, it gives no clue as to what is connected to what!

 

[trev]

Tom how the hell is that supposed to work when you have a live bypassing your contactors?
You need to draw it out as a schematic mate, it'll make a lot more sense

 

[uksparks]

That drawing is far more confusing than a half sensible circuit diagram. You've still just got a bunch of rectangles with a load of lines joining them together. There's no way you can actually wire anything from that, it gives no clue as to what is connected to what!

I agree and it's taken on board, but as a rough idea for how I want it to work I now have a shopping list and can visualise it in my head!

dont get me wrong though, a nice diagram would be good, but this will suffice, it's resolved my problem and now know what to get .

 

[uksparks]

It's like a new language Trev, only I understand it.

tje live going past the contactors is the permanent live,

 

[uksparks]

Tom how the hell is that supposed to work when you have a live bypassing your contactors?
You need to draw it out as a schematic mate, it'll make a lot more sense

It is Friday night...

 

[davesparks]

This is my very quick sketch of what I think you are trying to achieve,

Now which one do you think another electrician would be able to pick up and understand what the circuit should do?

 

[uksparks]

I'll explain...

1. 230v supply to main switch
2. Live from main switch goes to 6A MCB
3. The MCB feeds the permanent live connectors / common rail / permanent love to PIR's
4. The neutral from the main switch feeds the neutral bar that feeds the PIR's
5. The neutral from the main switch also feeds both contactors, so is connected to them for pulling them on purposes only
6. Take another live from the MCB and put it on to the relay, and from the relay take it to both the contactors so have a line and neutral to pull it on.
7. The live the feeds the contactors is only live when the alarm goes off and the 12v feed closes the relay.

 

[uksparks]

This is my very quick sketch of what I think you are trying to achieve,

Now which one do you think another electrician would be able to pick up and understand what the circuit should do?

View attachment 26815

Looks right to me, thanks for that .

other than my very poor attempt at drawing this up, do you think it's not a bad option and should work ok?

 

[davesparks]

It'll work fine, I've done it before a few times to override multiple PIR zones with timers and switches etc.
But I would usually tend to put a 0.5A mcb or similar in to fuse the coil circuit seperately, it's not strictly necessary though.

 

[uksparks]

Thanks, I really appreciate your help on this.