Distribution boards location

[Remmym]

Hi, I have never come across this before but is it OK to put a DB on the ceiling. We have had some cabins in and the db's are all on the ceiling. I have said this is wrong but my supervisor insists it is OK. Any input would be appreciated.

 

[westward10]

Do they come from China by any chance.

 

[snowhead]

Are they mounted so the lid hangs down?

 

[Remmym]

They come from Portugal flat packed and assembled over here. Yes the lids hang down.

 

[James]

Do they come from China by any chance.

No, Australia obviously!

 

[Remmym]

Do they come from China by any chance.

They come from Portugal

 

[Dartlec]

They come from Portugal flat packed and assembled over here. Yes the lids hang down.

I'd say if the lid hangs down that would be proof enough that they weren't designed to be fitted to the ceiling?

If it was a new build domestic, then Building Regulations would come into it too, as consumer units are meant to comply with accessibility for heights etc. But I guess cabins (commercial?) might not be covered by that.

From a purely technical point, I can't see an immediate reason for them not being safe like that - though if there were any holes in the rear of the consumer unit for cables to enter that weren't sealed, then any dust, not to mention water, would likely end up in there - so maybe not suitable for external influences?

 

[Remmym]

Are they mounted so the lid hangs down?

The lids do hang down.

 

[Remmym]

I'd say if the lid hangs down that would be proof enough that they weren't designed to be fitted to the ceiling?

If it was a new build domestic, then Building Regulations would come into it too, as consumer units are meant to comply with accessibility for heights etc. But I guess cabins (commercial?) might not be covered by that.

From a purely technical point, I can't see an immediate reason for them not being safe like that - though if there were any holes in the rear of the consumer unit for cables to enter that weren't sealed, then any dust, not to mention water, would likely end up in there - so maybe not suitable for external influences?

I thought about accessibility as you would need steps to access it.

 

[James]

If it is domestic, you could say that the enclosure will not contain a fire as the plastic parts are not contained within a non combustible enclosure unless the lid is closed.
a check with the manufacturer of the board would be a good place to start.

 

[DPG]

If the metal cover flap is permanently open then it does not meet requirements for domestic installations.

 

[James]

If the metal cover flap is permanently open then it does not meet requirements for domestic installations.

Got a reg. no. For that?

not being awkward , honestly want to quote it in future discussion with customers.

 

[DPG]

Got a reg. no. For that?

not being awkward , honestly want to quote it in future discussion with customers.

Mmm, tricky question. But the fact that a consumer unit should enclosed in a non flammable material surely means the lid needs to be closed? Otherwise it's not enclosed.

Satisfactory answer?

 

[James]

i agree with you, ref: post 10
just wondered if you could help me back it up with something easy to quote!

 

[DPG]

i agree with you, ref: post 10
just wondered if you could help me back it up with something easy to quote!

Sorry, missed that. I'll blame the beer.

Leave it with me

 

[Dartlec]

i agree with you, ref: post 10
just wondered if you could help me back it up with something easy to quote!

Maybe:

132.12
Accessibility of electrical equipment Electrical equipment shall be arranged to provide:
(i) sufficient space for the initial installation and later replacement of individual items of electrical equipment
(ii) accessibility for operation, inspection, testing, fault detection, maintenance and repair

Though as usual thats open to interpretation.

If it is domestic:

421.1.201 Within domestic (household) premises, consumer units and similar switchgear assemblies shall comply with BS EN 61439-3 and shall:
(i) have their enclosure manufactured from non-combustible material, or
(ii) be enclosed in a cabinet or enclosure constructed of non-combustible material and complying with Regulation 132.12

Which would suggest that the lid being closed isn't necessary for part (i) - though perhaps there is something in 61439-3 re lids?

I'd bet that the manufacturers of the consumer unit themselves don't specify that it can be installed as it is, if only because they didn't expect anyone to do so.

 

[Electro-tech]

Regulations do not apply to commercial buildings, Document M may not apply either otherwise it would be 1.2metres high max.

 

[westward10]

I wouldn't worry about it, can I access it yes.

 

[nicebutdim]

When you state that the DB covers hang down, do you mean that they (obviously) open downwards or that they have no means of being retained in the closed position?

I'd be amazed if the latter was the case. We've worked on a number of modular cabins with this sort of arrangement and I'm yet to see one with a DB lid swinging freely.

 

[swaRRR]

On most sites i've been on with newer pre-fab cabins the boards are all in the ceilings, especially when they are on a commando socket.

 

[UNG]

Regulations do not apply to commercial buildings, Document M may not apply either otherwise it would be 1.2metres high max.

Which regulations don't apply to commercial buildings

 

[Electro-tech]

Which regulations don't apply to commercial buildings

Quote from Consumer Unit regulations 2022
The particular consumer unit regulation relating to this in the 18th edition is 421.1.201

It should be noted that this regulation does not apply to commercial installations, where plastic consumer units can still be installed.

Not only that, but in domestic outbuildings, for example sheds & garages, you can still install plastic consumer units assuming that the outbuilding is not joined to the main building.

 

[James]

There are some regs that only apply to certain types of building, non combustible consumer units is of course one of them.

but to say regulations do not apply to Comercial buildings is simply wrong,
some Comercial buildings have far more regulations that apply to them than domestic.

 

[Electro-tech]

There are some regs that only apply to certain types of building, non combustible consumer units is of course one of them.

but to say regulations do not apply to Comercial buildings is simply wrong,
some Comercial buildings have far more regulations that apply to them than domestic.

I agree just goes to show don’t believe all that you read , it is all down to interpretation & do you want to sleep at night.

 

[UNG]

Quote from Consumer Unit regulations 2022
The particular consumer unit regulation relating to this in the 18th edition is 421.1.201

It should be noted that this regulation does not apply to commercial installations, where plastic consumer units can still be installed.

Not only that, but in domestic outbuildings, for example sheds & garages, you can still install plastic consumer units assuming that the outbuilding is not joined to the main building.

Consumer units installed in domestic premises have to be non combustable there is no absolute requirement that they MUST be metal and the reg you quote says exactly that and only uses metal as an example

 

[Electro-tech]

Consumer units installed in domestic premises have to be non combustable there is no absolute requirement that they MUST be metal and the reg you quote says exactly that and only uses metal as an example

Agreed . 421.1.201. Ferrous metal is deemed to be one example of a non-combustible material that meets the intent of the regulation.

 

[loz2754]

Regulations do not apply to commercial buildings, Document M may not apply either otherwise it would be 1.2metres high max.

Might want to have a read of the Approved Document M:
In particular pages 44, 45.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/990362/Approved_Document_M_vol_2.pdf

 

[littlespark]

Slight subject tangent. Non-combustible vs metal vs plastic consumer units. Been covered before.

As for consumer units fitted to ceiling… may be ok as per regulation, but the lid shouldn’t hang down.
I’m thinking faulty circuit breaker… user looking up to reset and the thing blows in a shower of sparks.

Might let any water drain out though.

 

[buzzlightyear]

You can order those from the ceiling types from the batcatalogue they come has standed black so you can't see them in the dark.

 

[telectrix]

i agree with you, ref: post 10
just wondered if you could help me back it up with something easy to quote!

the electric will all fall out.

 

[nicebutdim]

We seem to have extrapolated much from the sparse information provided by the OP - most of which isn't relevant to the questions asked.

Is it okay to mount a DB on the ceiling?

Is it okay if the cover opens downwards?

The only unknown is whether or not the lid has some means of retention and the OP has declined to comment further, despite having been online this morning. I'm guessing that it does.

 

[Remmym]

If it is domestic, you could say that the enclosure will not contain a fire as the plastic parts are not contained within a non combustible enclosure unless the lid is closed.
a check with the manufacturer of the board would be a good place to start.

We seem to have extrapolated much from the sparse information provided by the OP - most of which isn't relevant to the questions asked.

Is it okay to mount a DB on the ceiling?

Is it okay if the cover opens downwards?

The only unknown is whether or not the lid has some means of retention and the OP has declined to comment further, despite having been online this morning. I'm guessing that it does.

Sorry, the lid does stay shut

 

[nicebutdim]

Sorry, the lid does stay shut

Now you can consider all the other points raised