Domestic Installers Course - Ummmm!!

[telectrix]

i liken it to a solicitor doing a short course. he might be able to conveyance a house sale, but i'd not have him defend me on a criminal charge.

 

[Tradeskills4u]

Hi all,

I am happy to defend these courses and have done numerous times on numerous threads on this forum. The courses we offer are an excellent way to enter the industry and do give you some very good hands on experience of doing all the main circuits found in a domestic setting as well as how to inspect and test these. As with any profession there is plenty to learn once you are working on site, however the key thing you will walk out of the course knowing is how to safely install in a domestic setting and a solid grounding in both the practical and theory of domestic installations.

We have checked with both the scheme providers and building control and they all recognise the courses contained within the Bronze package especially the 2392 which allows you to inspect and test your own installations. The 2392 does contain both theory and practical teaching and in order to pass you will need to demonstrate your practical skills in a C&G assessment.

Phil D is right, More and more employers do want experience but how do you get that experience? Apprenticeship are very hard to come by these days especially if you are over the age of 21 so how do you break into the industry? Employers are much more likely to take on someone who has invested in themselves and retrained. These people will have a solid grounding in the correct way to do things and as such are much easier to work with than someone that is completely green.

The real issue in the industry is the number of people working without proper training. What happens if you work under their supervision with no training yourself? You can end up with a situation with the blind are leading the blind. That’s why we have formal qualifications.

And no I am not knocking experience, I just think that formal training and experience is the best way to go. And more often than not the best way into any industry electrical or any other is to start with the training.

 

[Octopus]

Hi all,

I am happy to defend these courses and have done numerous times on numerous threads on this forum. The courses we offer are an excellent way to enter the industry and do give you some very good hands on experience of doing all the main circuits found in a domestic setting as well as how to inspect and test these. As with any profession there is plenty to learn once you are working on site, however the key thing you will walk out of the course knowing is how to safely install in a domestic setting and a solid grounding in both the practical and theory of domestic installations.

We have checked with both the scheme providers and building control and they all recognise the courses contained within the Bronze package especially the 2392 which allows you to inspect and test your own installations. The 2392 does contain both theory and practical teaching and in order to pass you will need to demonstrate your practical skills in a C&G assessment.

Phil D is right, More and more employers do want experience but how do you get that experience? Apprenticeship are very hard to come by these days especially if you are over the age of 21 so how do you break into the industry? Employers are much more likely to take on someone who has invested in themselves and retrained. These people will have a solid grounding in the correct way to do things and as such are much easier to work with than someone that is completely green.

The real issue in the industry is the number of people working without proper training. What happens if you work under their supervision with no training yourself? You can end up with a situation with the blind are leading the blind. That’s why we have formal qualifications.

And no I am not knocking experience, I just think that formal training and experience is the best way to go. And more often than not the best way into any industry electrical or any other is to start with the training.

So, come on then, outline how many hours/days/weeks you spend on this then?

 

[UNG]

Hi all,

I am happy to defend these courses and have done numerous times on numerous threads on this forum. The courses we offer are an excellent way to enter the industry and do give you some very good hands on experience of doing all the main circuits found in a domestic setting as well as how to inspect and test these. As with any profession there is plenty to learn once you are working on site, however the key thing you will walk out of the course knowing is how to safely install in a domestic setting and a solid grounding in both the practical and theory of domestic installations.

Given the nature of a lot of these courses and the very short study periods I would suggest you can give very little real world hands on experience. Being able to safely install is only part of the bigger picture of this trade

We have checked with both the scheme providers and building control and they all recognise the courses contained within the Bronze package especially the 2392 which allows you to inspect and test your own installations. The 2392 does contain both theory and practical teaching and in order to pass you will need to demonstrate your practical skills in a C&G assessment.

I assume from this you have approached the JIB and asked for their opinion as for the scheme providers we all know what they are about they are part of the natural progression from your organisation

Phil D is right, More and more employers do want experience but how do you get that experience? Apprenticeship are very hard to come by these days especially if you are over the age of 21 so how do you break into the industry? Employers are much more likely to take on someone who has invested in themselves and retrained. These people will have a solid grounding in the correct way to do things and as such are much easier to work with than someone that is completely green.

The electrical industry has become a magnet for a large number of people via the retraining route this can be divided up into those who invest the time and gain the C&G 2330, 2382, 2391 etc or the newer equivalents and those who invest a large amount of money and a small amount of time. I think the person who has invested the time will have a much more solid grounding and lack the arrogance of the quick course trained people that is all to apparent on here

The real issue in the industry is the number of people working without proper training. What happens if you work under their supervision with no training yourself? You can end up with a situation with the blind are leading the blind. That’s why we have formal qualifications.

And no I am not knocking experience, I just think that formal training and experience is the best way to go. And more often than not the best way into any industry electrical or any other is to start with the training.

It still does not answer why you think it is ok to enter an industry without any core electrical qualification e.g. C&G 2330 which is very apparent from some of the most basic questions that are asked on this and other forums.
And what is a C&G 4141 - 01 qualification tried to look it up on the City & Guilds site and it does not exist so how is it a recognised qualification
You will have to excuse the expression but the quick training system seems to short circuit the proper training route without giving good underpinning knowledge

 

[bugsy]

Trouble is these poor sod's do your instant sparkie course's then find they are unable to a job because there are not many bits of chip board requiring two double sockets a switch a length of conduit and a C.U. attached , and they won't get 50k a year
Very misleading IMO

 

[Andy78]

How do you come up with your course fees for these "skim over" courses. My guess is its based on the average redundancy payment.

 

[telectrix]

very catty. i like it. now i see the point of your avatar. :77:

 

[7029 dave]

Hello, IMHO, to be called an experienced (electrician) you should have done the full c&g course's ie proper apprentership. Ideally started at school leaving age, and have experience in all aspects of this industry, domestic,industral and commercial. This new breed of electrician that's been created (only domestic installer) is utter nonsense. If people want to come into this trade late then good luck (but mayebe they have missed the boat) but it will be blood sweat and tears!! as it was for me when I was 16 lets make no bones about that. As for these short course's how the hell can you learn a skill in 5 minutes?.When it took a lot of us years, 33 years on and I am still learning!!.

 

[Silly Sausage]

Hi all,

I am happy to defend these courses .............

Can you provide us all with any figures, such as, how many of your graduates gain full time employment within the electrical industry, and secondly, what kind of annual income are they earning?

 

[Kate]

Some of what was said is right...it can open up an avenue with a company as it gives basic theory...the practical is not worth the cost of the cable used!!

 

[Des 56]

Here we go with one of my endless rants

Lets give the guy his due
He has not hidden behind a bush,he has come on here and defended his position as per the requests

The guy is in business responding to and creating demand for his product ( ie the ultra quick course that he wrongly announces as adequate for domestic installation)
In all of the above,I can't really fault him

The problem of quick fix courses was a result of the government creating a list of acceptable qualifications that enabled a person to register for the Part p nonsense
The list included the regulations add on accepted as if it were a core qualification

How many adverts are seen for employment, where they seek a 17th edition electrician
No mention of core qualifications because most are now advertised by the agency scum who wouldn't hardly know what a core qualification actually entails

With the government list mentioned above comes the action of the competent person schemes
In a competetive world where numbers = income,they were happy to seek the lowest common denominator
The Niceic are the bogey boys in this regard,it was they who accepted the regulations exam as suitable entry qualification,and still do to this day
At least Napit played its part by asking for a 2391 initially,but they succumbed to the numbers game and watered down the requirement by allowing 12 months to get it or their fraudulant equivelent

It was the Niceic who created the domestic installer name tag and the Niceic who permitted the arena for these training companies to sieze the golden opportunity of fast track,high cost inadequate training

if we could go back in time and stipulate JIB qualification for part p registration,the Niceic may not have corrupted our industry and the training providers would be concentrating on higher level qualification to its students

It was all about supply and demand.the government created the market,the schemes grabbed their opportunity of member numbers, at any cost to skill set, the training companies responded to the market with the short courses and the promise of riches beyond the wildest of dreams

Niow ask me why I detest the Niceic and why I detest agencies and why I can sympathise with the training providers aims
They may not be in our best interest,but we are not their customer so why should they be concerned with pleasing us

 

[telectrix]

totally agree. the govt. created the market, then swamped it with under qualified johnny foreigners by their open door immigration policies, then some bright spark in the civil service came up with the idea of creating our own home grown under qualified sparks as a means of avoiding being branded a racist. enter the Electrical Trainee courses.

 

[markc123]

The scheme providers might approve but i don't think it's all joy and grace.

My elecsa assessor hates these short coures with a passion and he said heated debates about them get often struck up in house.

Not all bright lights behind the scenes.

 

[markc123]

All it'd take is literally all us electricians to club together and bypass the NIC/ECA/ELECSA/NAPIT...then it'd be over.

However, easier said than done and i like everyone else have no idea how we'd be able to do this. The NIC have wormed there way into every nuck and cranny like a aids ridden worm.

 

[telectrix]

a possible way forward would be for ALL JIB approved/qualified sparks to dump their scam providers, notify LABC via email of all notifiable jobs completed, then when LABC kick off because there's no scam involved, then say "prosecute me then".

 

[Tiny Spark]

The courses we offer are an excellent way to enter the industry

That says it all for me.

Enter the industry maybe, Be allowed to run rampant in peoples homes I think not.

I would not hire one to work in my home or recommend one, I would want someone who is time served and with a proven track record.
After all most work is by word of mouth.

 

[telectrix]

or........ get a load of sparks to pay a shark ( sorry , lawyer ) to bring a test case under the restrictive practices banner.

 

[longboat]

All it'd take is literally all us electricians to club together and bypass the NIC/ECA/ELECSA/NAPIT...then it'd be over.

However, easier said than done and i like everyone else have no idea how we'd be able to do this. The NIC have wormed there way into every nuck and cranny like a aids ridden worm.

As i have said, and others on this forum. You no longer need to pay your hard earned to a part pish scam scheme.
If you can show the LABC that you have the relevant qual's you will still be able to self-sertify your own work.
Regrretably those sert's will probs be the same one's gained on a good use of redundancy money.

 

[markc123]

As i have said, and others on this forum. You no longer need to pay your hard earned to a part pish scam scheme.
If you can show the LABC that you have the relevant qual's you will still be able to self-sertify your own work.
Regrretably those sert's will probs be the same one's gained on a good use of redundancy money.

I see your point, but there are certain 'big' comapines that won't employ/subby anyone without being a member of a scam.

I do quite alot of works for holiday park's these days and bourne leisure & park resorts wont use you unless your a member of a scam.

 

[Tommy T]

I'm not sure if you lot were born sparkys or just fear someone new coming into the industry.

There's a lot of people who are discrediting the courses this guy wants to do and suggesting that lack of experience is more of a hinderance.

It's true that experience counts for a lot and that's why he is here, to ask for your experience, you all got yours from someone and who's to say he doesn't go on and get it from someone who has the belief in him that he can provide a good service.

Embarking on a new career takes guts and normally it's that determination that sets skilled tradespersons apart from cowboys.

I've missed out the last few pages of this thread as it seems to be the same old retort so I apologise if I'm repeating what someone has said.

I come to this Forum to see what problems people encounter and I try and solve them and see how other people solve them. I have enormous respect for the experienced people on here and their names come up again and again but please fellas, if you think that you are better than anyone else just because you have been doing it longer than anyone else then it's only a matter of time before someone is better than you.

I hope the original poster is not put off, I hope we can all be a bit more humble and open to this discussion topic.