Earths twisted up outside of joint boxes.

[dtec dave]

Why do I keep finding this set up on installations over 20ish years old..was this the done thing back in the day??

 

[Taylortwocities]

Yes, very common. Not permitted now as all conductors must be within the enclosure.

 

[Pete999]

Why do I keep finding this set up on installations over 20ish years old..was this the done thing back in the day??

View attachment 40202

Sadly, yes it was quite a common practice

 

[Devonchris]

Yes, very common. Not permitted now as all conductors must be within the enclosure.

So what sort of enclosure should conduit go in when it's used as a CPC?

Must admit that is a poor job in the photo. Green sleeving was available back then. And a terminal block. Would like to see inside that JB, 8 t&e's I think it would only need a sprinkle of parmisano to finish it off nicely.

 

[Strima]

So what sort of enclosure should conduit go in when it's used as a CPC?

Doesn't need to. However it must be painted green and yellow...

 

[Pete999]

So what sort of enclosure should conduit go in when it's used as a CPC?

Must admit that is a poor job in the photo. Green sleeving was available back then. And a terminal block. Would like to see inside that JB, 8 t&e's I think it would only need a sprinkle of parmisano to finish it off nicely.

Would hazard a guess that the joint box shown in the picture, is in my opinion far to small for the amount of cables that seem to be entering it 8 if my maths is up to scratch, should have used a plastic adaptable box, and as Wagos were to futuristic for the 70s a strip of connectors would do the trick nicely, cpcs as well.

 

[7029 dave]

Yes this was a common practice, I did it because it freed up a terminal inside the JB. (tin hat on)

 

[telectrix]

cpc's should be wound on top of the JB and secured with a wire nut. then a bit of green tape to ID them.

 

[7029 dave]

cpc's should be wound on top of the JB and secured with a wire nut. then a bit of green tape to ID them.

I did it at the bottom.

 

[Devonchris]

Doesn't need to. However it must be painted green and yellow...

Once fitted conduit in a posh factory where we had to work like mad as the painters were only about 20 foot behind us covering everything in orange paint.
(Regulation colour for electric (silver for steam pipes) then, is it still? )

 

[westward10]

Yes, very common. Not permitted now as all conductors must be within the enclosure.

Was never permitted.

 

[telectrix]

was a bodge then same as it would be now. to be fair to some of the sparks back then, lighting didn't usually have a cpc, so that was the obvious way to deal with a useless tangle of copper wire.

 

[Devonchris]

I don't think it was seen a bodge back then. Never done it myself mind. But in the 60s 70s when you were ripping out old, clamped conduit and lead cable that was used as the, then, earth and was totally exposed, then bare earth wire tightly wound must have seemed just as good or better.

Looks awful now though. Each generation of apprentice trained electricians improves on the last and so may it continue.

 

[123]

I don't think it was seen a bodge back then. Never done it myself mind. But in the 60s 70s when you were ripping out old, clamped conduit and lead cable that was used as the, then, earth and was totally exposed, then bare earth wire tightly wound must have seemed just as good or better.

Looks awful now though. Each generation of apprentice trained electricians improves on the last and so may it continue.

Hmmmm not sure I agree on that one. I think the general overall quality of electricians these days appears to be a lot lower than it was in the past.

 

[ipf]

If we're talking 20 years ago (in the dark ages????), it certainly was a bodge up...and it was green and yellow sleeving.
40 years back, green sleeving......but still a bodge.
I've certainly never done it and would have boll****d any one who did.

 

[Darkwood]

It was common practice in the 70/80's in domestic, you have to remember these were really the only joint boxes available and you were limited to 3 terminal for a 30amp and a 4 or 6 for 20amp or lower... they were cheap and effective, we didn't have a sea of choice in adaptable boxes and glands that we do today at affordable prices, it was usually a single/double surface mount with a blanking plate and a strip of connectors otherwise.

PS I did it because I was taught to at the company I did my apprenticeship with, yes it looks rough as nails now but it was funtional and did the job althought we stuck a 30amp connector to bind the earths at the end and we did use sleeving.

 

[willy fixit]

Under the chip board floor! Had to cut a big hole to get at this one - Glad I found it though. Broken lid taped on and cpcs wrapped over a batten floating in the insulation!

 

[willy fixit]

Better pics!

 

[telectrix]

all that needs is a couple of them american wire nuts. sorted.

 

[Toneyz]

I remember Ashley/Rock catalogue in the 80's having a brass plate with terminals that the j.b screwed down onto and the earths terminating in these terminals outside j.b's.

 

[PEG]

I have seen plenty of the same type of job,in properties of the 30's and 40's,where any bare copper wires,are wrapped round a nail,next to any junction.
I also met an old spark,who was swapping his tools over,from a large cantilever box,to a later model,and i spotted a long,silver plier type tool,with a knurled rear knob.

It was an aircraft wire lock tool,which is used to lock-wire fastenings,and was a individual trade in itself.

Now i know some of the early metal clad boxes,isolators,etc,had drilled fixings,but i'm sure i glanced a copper sheen,on the jaws

 

[Timbo]

Found this one the other day in a friend's roof. The cpc's of loop in/out are under the clamp at top right, the other 4 just twisted into that scruit externally. Might connect???

 

[Pete999]

all that needs is a couple of them american wire nuts. sorted.

Reckon whoever did that mess want's shooting, crikey what a mess.

 

[telectrix]

Reckon whoever did that mess want's shooting, crikey what a mess.

it's a non-combustible joint box. what could possibly go wrong?

 

[Pete999]

Found this one the other day in a friend's roof. The cpc's of loop in/out are under the clamp at top right, the other 4 just twisted into that scruit externally. Might connect???View attachment 40226

Made for lead sheathed cables if my memory serve me well.

 

[Timbo]

Similarly, but more of a recent bodge, I was doing an unrelated job and custome said can you pop your head in the roof and tell me if those junction boxes are alright!
Turns out he'd had some work done by Polish "electricians" nice and cheap........

Redid that lot into this:

 

[telectrix]

maybe cheap but deffo not nice. how do the buggers get away with shyte like that?

 

[Timbo]

maybe cheap but deffo not nice. how do the buggers get away with shyte like that?

Search me, pal. Worst bit was after redoing it all and connecting all the cpc's, on of the landing light circuits kept tripping every other time it was used (was 2-way).
Took the switch off and found cpc had been cut off leaving a short tail just enough to touch a switch wire. All the wires into the switch were stripped back too far, leaving copious amounts of live copper exposed.

 

[willy fixit]

Deleted due to idiocy on my part!

 

[willy fixit]

Neat Timbo- Never thought of using a surface box in that way - cheaper than a wiska and tough if a PVC box is used - will defo use that idea if the need arises!

 

[Taylortwocities]

Neat Timbo- Never thought of using a surface box in that way - cheaper than a wiska and tough if a PVC box is used - will defo use that idea if the need arises!View attachment 40234

Where's the strain relief on those cables!

 

[Taylortwocities]

Made for lead sheathed cables if my memory serve me well.

This is a lead sheathed lighting box, done properly

 

[willy fixit]

Where's the strain relief on those cables!

It's just a JB in the loft!

 

[Andy C]

Reading this thread. what do people do with double insulated LED downlighters that do not have an earth connection in them? Lap from Screwfix do them, only bad comment is that.

 

[Pete999]

Reading this thread. what do people do with double insulated LED downlighters that do not have an earth connection in them? Lap from Screwfix do them, only bad comment is that.

Terminate the cpcs in a Suitable JB

 

[Andy C]

Terminate the cpcs in a Suitable JB

When I think about it, a daft question. I am going to be replacing a surface mounted light in a kitchen and a bathroom. So i will just have 1 JB replacing the light accessible from the loft and the daisy chain 2 core flex to the three downlighter, using IP65 for the bathroom/wetroom. Should have thought more before posting.

 

[Pete999]

When I think about it, a daft question. I am going to be replacing a surface mounted light in a kitchen and a bathroom. So i will just have 1 JB replacing the light accessible from the loft and the daisy chain 2 core flex to the three downlighter, using IP65 for the bathroom/wetroom. Should have thought more before posting.

What about the earth being present at each point?

 

[Taylortwocities]

The earth will be present at the junction box which is adjacent to the downlight. A short length of 2-core flex used to connect to the Class II downlight.
Same principle as the drop cable in a pendant.

 

[Andy C]

The earth will be present at the junction box which is adjacent to the downlight. A short length of 2-core flex used to connect to the Class II downlight.
Same principle as the drop cable in a pendant.

Exactly except I will have 3 flexes into the JB as I am replacing one surface mounted light with three downlighter, or a daisy chain.
I thought as the main JB replacing the light would have the cps terminated there. it would be okay to take three pieces of 2 core flex to the class II downlight. If they were ever changed in the future and required an earth then an electrician could rewire to the JB.

A down side of doing this is I believe that i would only be able to get an R1/R2 reading at the JB.