EICR codes advice

[paulthemagpie]

Hi guys,

just looking for some advice on a few common issues ive found when conduction a commercial EICR and how best code them. Any advice and help is much appreicated.

So hear are some the senarios

1. No fuse spur to heater (hard wired straight to MCB with correct size cable and MCB for heater)- Im thinking code 2?

2. No isolator/fuse spur to curtain heater (hard wired straight to MCB with correct size MCB and cable for curtain heater in question) - again code 2?

3. Missing lid that covers MCBs (not fuse board cover) Code 3?

4. Different manufacture MCBs in board. (e.g 12 way wylex board with 11 wylex MCBs and 1 hager MCB) code 3?

5. Cables not supported in their runs? code 2

6. Cables not supported above false ceiling and lying on metal frame work. code 2?

7. Emergency lights not wired correctly for testing - just info

8. Main service incomer in open with no cupboard or barrier - code 2 with recommendation of some sort of cupboard or barrier.

9. DB in open with no cupboard or barrier - code 2 with recommendation of some sort of cupboard or barrier added to cover DB.

10. No visable signs of supplementary bonding - If it looks like it could be covered in building fabric and able to obtain a very low resistance reading with a wander lead then - info with notes

11. Breakers such as 3871? code 3 recommend upgrade to 60898 breakers

12. Old board with 3871 breakers with half upgraded to 60898 breakers - code 2 with recommend the rest upgrade to 60898s.

13. Fire panel not wired from DB to fire panel in fire resistant wiring - code 2.

14. No main switch between incomer and DB or first DB - code 2 if commercial

15. RCD as main switch on DB - code 2 with recommendation of main switch added even if it means a board change a no spare ways

if anyone would like to add to this list it may be helpful for others including myself.

 

[telectrix]

you need to consider each point and ask your self if you consider that there is a potential danger or not. if yes, then it's a code C2. if not, then C3.

 

[Andy78]

Hi guys,

just looking for some advice on a few common issues ive found when conduction a commercial EICR and how best code them. Any advice and help is much appreicated.

So hear are some the senarios

1. No fuse spur to heater (hard wired straight to MCB) - Im thinking code 2?
What size heater, what size MCB, what size cable ?
2. No isolator/fuse spur to curtain heater (hard wired straight to MCB) - again code 2?
As above
3. Missing lid that covers MCBs (not fuse board cover) Code 3?
Which reg are you stating here ?
4. Different manufacture MCBs in board. (e.g 12 way wylex board with 11 wylex MCBs and 1 different make MCB) code 3?
Which reg are you stating here ?
5. Cables not supported in their runs? code 2
What is the situation and location and what is the perceived danger ?
6. Cables not supported above false ceiling and lying on metal frame work. code 2?
What type of cable, what situation, what danger are you commenting on ?
7. Emergency lights not wired correctly for testing - just info
?
8. Main service incomer in open with no cupboard or barrier - code 2 with recommendation of some sort of cupboard or barrier.
Which reg are you stating here ?
9. DB in open with no cupboard or barrier - code 2 with recommendation of some sort of cupboard or barrier added to cover DB.
Which reg are you stating here ?
10. No visable signs of supplementary bonding - If it looks like it could be covered in building fabric and able to obtain a very low resistance reading with a wander lead then - info with notes
Is the bonding needed ?
11. Breakers such as 3871? code 3 recommend upgrade to 60898 breakers
Which reg are you stating here ?
12. Old board with 3871 breakers with half upgraded to 60898 breakers - code 2 with recommend the rest upgrade to 60898s.
Which reg are you stating here ?
13. Fire panel not wired from DB to fire panel in fire resistant wiring - code 2.
Which reg are you stating here ?
if anyone would like to add to this list it may be helpful for others including myself.

My thoughts in red.

 

[paulthemagpie]

im looking for general advice overall not on a particular installation. So basically on the first points id be taking it the right size heater, cable and MCB is in place

 

[Andy78]

im looking for general advice overall not on a particular installation. So basically on the first points id be taking it the right size heater, cable and MCB is in place

So what code would you give it if the co-ordination between cable size, kW rating of heater, and MCB were as they should be for compliance with the regs ?

 

[paulthemagpie]

id be inclinded to say code 2 as they should be some sort of isolator/fuse spur local to the heater.

 

[Flanders]

I agree a with ANDY and you seem to be putting code 2s against a lot of observation that are not potentially dangerous , why do you think 3871 MCBs are potential dangerous and it would depend on the environment for barriers around service Head , for example if fork lift truck could hit it then I would agree with a code 2

 

[Andy78]

id be inclinded to say code 2 as they should be some sort of isolator/fuse spur local to the heater.

What is the potential danger you have identified and what regulation would you be using to support that ?

 

[Flanders]

id be inclinded to say code 2 as they should be some sort of isolator/fuse spur local to the heater.

May need local isolation but would give that a code 3 , why would it need a local fuse ?

 

[telectrix]

i'd say from the OP that most of those would be a C3.

 

[paulthemagpie]

May need local isolation but would give that a code 3 , why would it need a local fuse ?

meant either or. You see alot of heaters already fitted with local fuse spurs at each heater

 

[Andy78]

meant either or. You see alot of heaters already fitted with local fuse spurs at each heater

You can't issue a coded observation based on "It hasn't got what you usually see a lot of" though can you ?

 

[andyb]

You can't issue a coded observation based on "It hasn't got what you usually see a lot of" though can you ?

That would certainly make life easier Andy.

 

[Andy78]

That would certainly make life easier Andy.

Not mine, I'd be forever writing EICRs with at least 4 continuation sheets just for observations.

 

[Flanders]

meant either or. You see alot of heaters already fitted with local fuse spurs at each heater

All all depends on how the circuit is wired , for example they may be on a 32 amp ring final circuit so need local over current protection. and ypu would be correct to give it a code 2

 

[paulthemagpie]

You can't issue a coded observation based on "It hasn't got what you usually see a lot of" though can you ?

yes i understand that . I just thought this was a requirement to have some sort of isolation point local to the heaters?

 

[Andy78]

yes i understand that . I just thought this was a requirement to have some sort of isolation point local to the heaters?

You can't issued a coded observation based on what you suspect may be required either.

 

[paulthemagpie]

You can't issued a coded observation based on what you suspect may be required either.

thats why im on here andy to get some guidance and advice.

What code if any would you be inclinded to give a DB that isnt in a cupboard or within any barrier, ect.

 

[Flanders]

thats why im on here andy to get some guidance and advice.

What code if any would you be inclinded to give a DB that isnt in a cupboard or within any barrier, ect.

I mentioned this in post 7 " it would depend on the environment for barriers around service Head , for example if fork lift truck could hit it then I would agree with a code 2" every installation is different so there is not just one answer to this

 

[Andy78]

thats why im on here andy to get some guidance and advice.

What code if any would you be inclinded to give a DB that isnt in a cupboard or within any barrier, ect.

My best guidance and advice would be that if you are not sure whether something is required by the regs or not then look it up in the regs. It's going to take a long time to go through all your original points at this rate.

A lot of your original points would be dependant on the situation and it would be impossible to tell you what code as some could range from no code to a C2 dependant on other factors. It's down to the inspector to deem issues dangerous or not based on the situation, but all observations must have a basis in the regs otherwise it's not a technical report based on the requirements of BS7671, it's just opinion.

If you could answer all my points in red from my first post then we could start from there.

I would also advise some serious revising or studying as you seem to be picking codes at random without any thought or justification as to why. If a client handed me an EICR with all your points coded as they are in your original post I would tell them that someone either didn't know what they were doing, and/or is trying to pull a fast one with a large remedial works bill.
I'm not trying to be harsh with that comment, just offer my truthful opinion.

 

[Bromd123]

1. No fuse spur to heater (hard wired straight to MCB with correct size cable and MCB for heater)- Im thinking code 2?
This isnt an issue as the MCB can be used as local isolation (not best practice but not against regs)
2. No isolator/fuse spur to curtain heater (hard wired straight to MCB with correct size MCB and cable for curtain heater in question) - again code 2?This isnt an issue as the MCB can be used as local isolation (not best practice but not against regs)

3. Missing lid that covers MCBs (not fuse board cover) Code 3? Does this impair the IP rating of the enclosure? If not then no issue.

4. Different manufacture MCBs in board. (e.g 12 way wylex board with 11 wylex MCBs and 1 hager MCB) code 3? I would agree with C3 for this, Regs states follow Manufacturers info, Manufacturers info says use their products only

5. Cables not supported in their runs? code 2 C3

6. Cables not supported above false ceiling and lying on metal frame work. C3

7. Emergency lights not wired correctly for testing - just info Explain what you mean

8. Main service incomer in open with no cupboard or barrier - code 2 with recommendation of some sort of cupboard or barrier.
No Issue as long as relevant IP rating have been adhered to
9. DB in open with no cupboard or barrier - code 2 with recommendation of some sort of cupboard or barrier added to cover No Issue as long as relevant IP rating have been adhered to
10. No visable signs of supplementary bonding - If it looks like it could be covered in building fabric and able to obtain a very low resistance reading with a wander lead then - info with notes Read requirements for omition of Supplementary bonding in section 701, confirm by applying reg 415.2.2

11. Breakers such as 3871? code 3 recommend upgrade to 60898 breaker Unless their breaking capacity has been exceeded no issue

12. Old board with 3871 breakers with half upgraded to 60898 breakers - code 2 with recommend the rest upgrade to 60898s potentially a C3 unless same manufacturers equipment used.

13. Fire panel not wired from DB to fire panel in fire resistant wiring - code 2.

14. No main switch between incomer and DB or first DB - code 2 if commercial No requirement

15. RCD as main switch on DB - code 2 with recommendation of main switch added even if it means a board change a no spare ways C3 as there is no division of the installation, although no spare ways doesnt mean a CU change necessarily.

These are my opinions on the coding.

if anyone would like to add to this list it may be helpful for others including myself.

 

[Flanders]

13. Fire panel not wired from DB to fire panel in fire resistant wiring - code 2. This is not a BS 7671 Reg But is in the fire alarm regs BS 5839-1:2013 so I would give it a code 3

 

[Pete999]

Best Practice Guide 4

 

[Risteard]

13. Fire panel not wired from DB to fire panel in fire resistant wiring - code 2. This is not a BS 7671 Reg But is in the fire alarm regs BS 5839-1:2013 so I would give it a code 3

I agree that it is BS 5839-1:2013, but this does not mean that a C3 coding is appropriate. It means that it must not be coded as it is not a non-compliance with BS 7671:2008 (2015). As such a covering letter would be perhaps the best place to highlight the issue - but certainly not in an Electrical Installation Condition Report to BS 7671.

 

[Andy78]

I would say that fire alarm supplies are covered by BS7671 and are required to be fire resistant.

560.5.2 and 560.8.1

 

[Risteard]

Indeed. What I was getting at was not that it isn't non-compliant with BS 7671, but that if you are claiming non-compliance with another Standard then the EICR isn't the place for that observation. It may come under the Regulations for safety circuits in BS 7671 if I look into that later - and if so would be notable in the EICR.

 

[mattg4321]

I came across one today that had me slightly stumped.

1mm T+E from socket on ring final, to feed some lighting via a 3A fuse in a SFCU.

It seems wrong to do this and I never would, but theres no way the cable from the socket to the SFCU can be overloaded as the 3A fuse obviously limits current flow in that cable.

Thoughts? Struggling to think of a reg this contravenes...

 

[Andy78]

I came across one today that had me slightly stumped.

1mm T+E from socket on ring final, to feed some lighting via a 3A fuse in a SFCU.

It seems wrong to do this and I never would, but theres no way the cable from the socket to the SFCU can be overloaded as the 3A fuse obviously limits current flow in that cable.

Thoughts? Struggling to think of a reg this contravenes...

524.1 referencing table 52.3 Minimum size for power circuits is 1.5mm

 

[Richard Burns]

If the cable from the socket before the fuse is 1mm² then this is power wiring and the minimum size is now 1.5mm², but really it will not be a problem and could be considered as the spur is for lighting only, perhaps.

 

[davesparks]

Hi guys,

just looking for some advice on a few common issues ive found when conduction a commercial EICR and how best code them. Any advice and help is much appreicated.

So hear are some the senarios

1. No fuse spur to heater (hard wired straight to MCB with correct size cable and MCB for heater)- Im thinking code 2?

2. No isolator/fuse spur to curtain heater (hard wired straight to MCB with correct size MCB and cable for curtain heater in question) - again code 2?

3. Missing lid that covers MCBs (not fuse board cover) Code 3?

4. Different manufacture MCBs in board. (e.g 12 way wylex board with 11 wylex MCBs and 1 hager MCB) code 3?

5. Cables not supported in their runs? code 2

6. Cables not supported above false ceiling and lying on metal frame work. code 2?

7. Emergency lights not wired correctly for testing - just info

8. Main service incomer in open with no cupboard or barrier - code 2 with recommendation of some sort of cupboard or barrier.

9. DB in open with no cupboard or barrier - code 2 with recommendation of some sort of cupboard or barrier added to cover DB.

10. No visable signs of supplementary bonding - If it looks like it could be covered in building fabric and able to obtain a very low resistance reading with a wander lead then - info with notes

11. Breakers such as 3871? code 3 recommend upgrade to 60898 breakers

12. Old board with 3871 breakers with half upgraded to 60898 breakers - code 2 with recommend the rest upgrade to 60898s.

13. Fire panel not wired from DB to fire panel in fire resistant wiring - code 2.

14. No main switch between incomer and DB or first DB - code 2 if commercial

15. RCD as main switch on DB - code 2 with recommendation of main switch added even if it means a board change a no spare ways

if anyone would like to add to this list it may be helpful for others including myself.

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 14, 15 sound like no codes to me based on the limited info you have given.

Remember code 2 is only for situations where a potential danger exists. Unless you can specify exactly what the potential danger is and a regulation to support it then don't code it.

 

[mattg4321]

If the cable from the socket before the fuse is 1mm² then this is power wiring and the minimum size is now 1.5mm², but really it will not be a problem and could be considered as the spur is for lighting only, perhaps.

Thanks, hadn't thought of that. Think I'm going to C3 it anyway. I know in reality it's never going to be a problem but it just seems like a bit of a bodge.

 

[davesparks]

Thanks, hadn't thought of that. Think I'm going to C3 it anyway. I know in reality it's never going to be a problem but it just seems like a bit of a bodge.

Code C3 is exclusively for identifying items which could have specific safety improvements made. It is not for identifying things you don't like the look of

 

[mattg4321]

Code C3 is exclusively for identifying items which could have specific safety improvements made. It is not for identifying things you don't like the look of

So the fact Table 52.3 states that the minimum size for power circuits is 1.5mm2 doesn't mean using 1mm2 goes against the regs? If it does, surely it needs coding?

 

[Flanders]

I agree that it is BS 5839-1:2013, but this does not mean that a C3 coding is appropriate. It means that it must not be coded as it is not a non-compliance with BS 7671:2008 (2015). As such a covering letter would be perhaps the best place to highlight the issue - but certainly not in an Electrical Installation Condition Report to BS 7671.

I would give it code 3 as an improvment can be made to make ths installtion safer but i get your point that it may not be relevant to bs7671 , as far as im aware a code 3 is not saying it does not comply to the bs 7671 just that improvement can be made , it was the old code 4 that ment it did not comply to bs 7671

 

[Risteard]

I came across one today that had me slightly stumped.

1mm T+E from socket on ring final, to feed some lighting via a 3A fuse in a SFCU.

It seems wrong to do this and I never would, but theres no way the cable from the socket to the SFCU can be overloaded as the 3A fuse obviously limits current flow in that cable.

Thoughts? Struggling to think of a reg this contravenes...

Overload is not the only consideration. You must also demonstrate that it is adequate for short circuit protection.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

We are only required to record a non-compliance, if it may present a danger.
Would anyone really consider the length of cable between an RFC and an FCU as being wiring for power if it supplies lighting?
With regards to fire alarm Regulations and the fact that an EICR is conducted to the requirements of BS7671:
Regulation 110.1.3 informs us that BS7671 may need to be supplemented by the requirements or recommendations of other British or Harmonized Standards.
Further, Regulation 115.1 informs us that the requirements of licensing authorities will have to be complied with, for installations in premises subject to statutory licensing.
To my mind it is best to discuss with the client just which standards or licensing requirements (if any), need to be taken account of, before undertaking the inspection.

 

[Risteard]

BS7671 may need to be supplemented by the requirements or recommendations of other British or Harmonized Standards.

These other Standards have their own model forms for reporting, however.

 

[Flanders]

I can be a fine line between observing something that requires attention and punting for work , for example when doing an EICR you notice that the emergency lights are not working now you could ignore this as it has nothing to do with bs7671 or you could put down as info on the report so it is highlighted to the customer and it is up to them if they wish to action it further ( I think this just shows how observant you are when carrying out an inspection) , and thinking about it the same apply to the cables supplying the fire alarm so yes may be a code 3 was over the top . I have often spotted things in the building that have nothing to do with the electrical installation but have mentioned them to the customer such as jammed fire doors or small water leak.

 

[Risteard]

I have often spotted things in the building that have nothing to do with the electrical installation but have mentioned them to the customer such as jammed fire doors or small water leak.

I presume you didn't list them as Observations on an Electrical Installation Condition Report, though?

 

[Flanders]

I presume you didn't list them as Observations on an Electrical Installation Condition Report, though?

Yes just a chat with the customer

 

[davesparks]

So the fact Table 52.3 states that the minimum size for power circuits is 1.5mm2 doesn't mean using 1mm2 goes against the regs? If it does, surely it needs coding?

No, you are not assessing absolute compliance with 7671. You are assessing the installation's suitability for continued service using 7671 as the reference for the standard of safety. You do not code things just because they are 'against regs', solid green earths, old core colours and imperial cable sizes are all arguably 'against regs' but you don't code them as they have no effect on safety.
C3 is to be used to code observations where an improvement could be made for safety, it is not for identifying items which could be changed just for the sake of satisfying a regulation.
If the 1mm is operating safely as it is then there is no observation to made.
If the 1mm is undersized for the load or fault current then it would be a C2 as it would become dangerous under fault conditions.