fire rated or not down lightd

[Simon-0116]

Looked at job for a builder to put down lights in soffit of a porch, single storey flat roof 2m x 2m. But void is only 80mm deep, told him he should have built it bigger but just says put them down lights in with no covers. My I dea was fireproof down lights, but not enough room. So as its outside, only one story do they need to be fireproof????

 

[pcam1984]

You could fit non fireproof and use led lamps to reduce the heat if there's not enough room for fire rated.

 

[sparky87]

hi simon, if it is hasn't got a habital room above then no requirement for fire rated fittings to be installed, is there insulation in void? and what is ceiling material? presuming internal not external? confused about sofit as this is the external overhang normally.

 

[Leesparkykent]

Aurora M5 LED Downlight IP65 Fixed 10W Fire Rated AU-FRL501

only 65mm in height.

 

[mansabadman]

Aurora M5 LED Downlight IP65 Fixed 10W Fire Rated AU-FRL501

only 65mm in height.

The Click Inceptor Micro Non-Dimmable 7W LED Downlight 4000K (LED4300WH7C) in a White finish is another quality product from Click. The Click Inceptor Micro Non-Dimmable 7W LED Downlight 4000K (LED4300WH7C) is available at electrical2go for only £15.


Or try these. A good led, very shallow above the ceiling.

 

[D Skelton]

Haler H2 are only 70mm high

Fire rated are only needed to maintain fire barriers. Typically, these will only be found between floors of separate properties, ie. in the ceiling of a ground floor flat. If there's no second floor flat then the downlights in the ceiling of the first floor flat need not be fire rated.

A lot of misinformation out there about when you need and don't need to maintain fire barriers.

 

[Leesparkykent]

The Click Inceptor Micro Non-Dimmable 7W LED Downlight 4000K (LED4300WH7C) in a White finish is another quality product from Click. The Click Inceptor Micro Non-Dimmable 7W LED Downlight 4000K (LED4300WH7C) is available at electrical2go for only £15.


Or try these. A good led, very shallow above the ceiling.

IF being fitted in a soffit outside though personally I would go with the Aurora as it has a better IP rating.

 

[TJ Anderson]

Haler H2 are only 70mm high

Fire rated are only needed to maintain fire barriers. Typically, these will only be found between floors of separate properties, ie. in the ceiling of a ground floor flat. If there's no second floor flat then the downlights in the ceiling of the first floor flat need not be fire rated.

A lot of misinformation out there about when you need and don't need to maintain fire barriers.

You also require fire rated in a standard two storey house. You would need this to maintain the 30 min rating of a standard plasterboard ceiling. http://www.downlights.co.uk/files/ESC-Fire-Rated-Downlights.pdf?334762691

 

[davesparks]

Planning Portal - Approved Document B - Fire safety: Volume 1 - Dwellinghouses

 

[Simon-0116]

Thanks for the quick genuine response, yes external soffits but always tried to fit fire rated before as a good practice measure. And correct that there are many misconception of fire rating rules, thanks

 

[GB.Kayak]

You also require fire rated in a standard two storey house. You would need this to maintain the 30 min rating of a standard plasterboard ceiling. http://www.downlights.co.uk/files/ESC-Fire-Rated-Downlights.pdf?334762691

TJ, thank you very much for the link to this document ... it should be mandatory reading for all professional electricians. Furthermore, I think that it provides insight into the reasons behind that much discussed and ill-liked BS 7671 amendment 3 provision for incombustible CUs.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Haler H2 are only 70mm high

Fire rated are only needed to maintain fire barriers. Typically, these will only be found between floors of separate properties, ie. in the ceiling of a ground floor flat. If there's no second floor flat then the downlights in the ceiling of the first floor flat need not be fire rated.

A lot of misinformation out there about when you need and don't need to maintain fire barriers.

There is a lot of misconception and I'm still not sure about whether or not they HAVE to be fitted in the ceiling if there is a roof space above. However, I will always fit fire rated ones when there is a loft above as this is recommended by 'Electrical safety first' in Best Practise Guide Number 5 - page 8 section 7.7 - (see link given by TJ in post 8). Their reasons are that this will:

1. Safeguard escape from the premises
2. Restrict the spread of fire.
3. Reduce the risk of premature failure of the roof structure

Also, The Electrical Safety Council recommends fire rated downlights fitted in 'all' ceilings' View attachment downlight information sheet- ESC.pdf

 

[davesparks]

Have a read of part B and you'll see that they are not required for ceilings when the only stricture above is a roof.

But I normally fit fire rated downlights everywhere because the fittings I use don't exist as a non fire rated fitting

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Have a read of part B and you'll see that they are not required for ceilings when the only stricture above is a roof.

But I normally fit fire rated downlights everywhere because the fittings I use don't exist as a non fire rated fitting

I've looked through the index Dave and also spent 5 mins scanning through the 86 pages but I cant see any mention of downlights. I'm not saying they're not there, I'm sure they are, I just cant find it! Do you know which page refers to the downlights and there situation in a ceiling with roof above?

ps.. Have also just done a search for the word 'downlights' and 'recessed' in Part B and nothing came up? Perhaps you are referring more to do with general requirements in a roof space rather than specifically anything to do with downlights?

 

[Andy78]

I've looked through the index Dave and also spent 5 mins scanning through the 86 pages but I cant see any mention of downlights. I'm not saying they're not there, I'm sure they are, I just cant find it! Do you know which page refers to the downlights and there situation in a ceiling with roof above?

That's because it doesn't mention downlights. It mentions fire ratings of ceilings in minutes, the situations in which they apply, and the need for reinstating such ratings if the ceilings are compromised.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

That's because it doesn't mention downlights. It mentions fire ratings of ceilings in minutes, the situations in which they apply, and the need for reinstating such ratings if the ceilings are compromised.

I was beginning to think it must be something like that, thanks.

Would still be good to have the section of the document pointed out though if you feel like it? :smile5: As I'm looking and looking and cant find it!

 

[davesparks]

I've looked through the index Dave and also spent 5 mins scanning through the 86 pages but I cant see any mention of downlights. I'm not saying they're not there, I'm sure they are, I just cant find it! Do you know which page refers to the downlights and there situation in a ceiling with roof above?

ps.. Have also just done a search for the word 'downlights' and 'recessed' in Part B and nothing came up? Perhaps you are referring more to do with general requirements in a roof space rather than specifically anything to do with downlights?

The same as all other standards etc you have to read, understand and apply the requirements. They couldn't possibly list every single possible penetration of a fire barrier seperately!

The following sections of part B3, among other sections, apply.

7.2 covers holes for cables etc to pass through, also can apply to downlights etc
7.4 says that holes in fire barriers for downlights etc may need to have the fire barrier maintained, you have to refer to the structural requirements in part B3 to ascertain what is and is not a required fire barrier
7.6 (and following sections) covers pipes passing through fire barriers which applies to us for extractor ducting.

4.1 covers the purpose of minimum fire resistance standards
4.2 covers the minimum fire resistance to be provided for structural elements.
4.4 excludes structures only supporting roofs (subject to exceptions) from the structural requirements

 

[D Skelton]

There is a lot of misconception and I'm still not sure about whether or not they HAVE to be fitted in the ceiling if there is a roof space above. However, I will always fit fire rated ones when there is a loft above as this is recommended by 'Electrical safety first' in Best Practise Guide Number 5 - page 8 section 7.7 - (see link given by TJ in post 8). Their reasons are that this will:

1. Safeguard escape from the premises
2. Restrict the spread of fire.
3. Reduce the risk of premature failure of the roof structure

Also, The Electrical Safety Council recommends fire rated downlights fitted in 'all' ceilings' View attachment 28008

My reply was specifically in response to the OP. If ever I fit downlights and they're not LEDs then they will be mains voltage fire rated. If however a customer didn't have the budget for LEDs and wanted cheap downlights fitted below a flat roof, I'd have no qualms fitting non fire rated lights.

My point was mainly to illustrate that you only have to fit fire rated cans in specific situations. Hence why non fire rated ones would be perfect for a tight void above.

 

[tazz]

I have read through the posts...and wonder if the op and others actually understand what is ment by fire rated fittings. It has nothing to do with the heat produce by the fitting (but is an issue) it is the fire retainment between floors of a building.

 

[D Skelton]

I have read through the posts...and wonder if the op and others actually understand what is ment by fire rated fittings. It has nothing to do with the heat produce by the fitting (but is an issue) it is the fire retainment between floors of a building.

I'd be willing to bet that 99% of domestic sparks don't actually know what the fire rating of a can is actually there for.

Just yesterday I was at the counter at my wholesaler and the fella to my right was ordering downlights, when the sales guy asked if he needed them to be fire rated his reply was along the lines of "err, yes, yes they do need fire rating coz they're gonna be surrounded by insulation innit"?!?!?!?

Even I couldn't let that one slide and swiftly educated him, turns out he wasn't a spark but the builder buying for the spark (so he said!), but I'd have thought as a builder he should know this like the back of his hand! Fire barrier preservation is their realm! Pft!