Full Certificate and Minor Works Certificates

[Mattyi26]

Hi All,

Not posted on here for a few years! I have a question that i hope someone can clarify.

I need help understanding the differences between a full cert and a minor, correct me if im wrong a minor is for jobs that are non notifiable and full for special locations and notifiable works. So if i carry out both notifiable works and minor do i fill out both?
Can i do it any other way?

I recently joined Stroma and in the process of setting up my e-cert software so if anyone can tell me what they think of it?, Ihave done 2 jobs since registering which have both been consumer unit upgrades to 17th amend 3 and have used the generic IET certs hand written But How do i fill this out if just doing for example;

Adding 1 extra circuit in a special location;

Full cert with all 5 pages filled out? With the page schedule of test results only containing the 1 extra circuit i have added? How far do i go with the check sheets? Everything or anything that does not comply to current regs/amendment do i record on it?

If anyone can explain how they do it regarding different types of jobs?

Hope ive explained myself properly but cant find a simple answer on this!

Thanks in advance

Matt

 

[davesparks]

Being notifiable under part P has no bearing on the type of certificate you issue. Part P and its notifications is completely separate from bs7671 and its certificates.

An alteration to one existing circuit requires a minor works, alteration to multiple circuits or installation of a new circuit requires an EIC

 

[sparksburnout]

Didn't you cover all this in your inspection and testing course?

 

[Risteard]

alteration to multiple circuits ... requires an EIC

Or multiple MEIWCs.

It's funny that he has "joined Stroma" but doesn't understand what certificates are required though!

 

[Mattyi26]

Thats why im asking as im unsure if im filling out exactly what is needed or not? Am i not doing enough or am i doing to much for what is required?

 

[davesparks]

Or multiple MEIWCs.

It's funny that he has "joined Stroma" but doesn't understand what certificates are required though!

In theory yes, but there comes a point where that becomes ridiculous to the point of absurdity.

 

[davesparks]

Didn't you cover all this in your inspection and testing course?

Or apprenticeship even

 

[Risteard]

In theory yes, but there comes a point where that becomes ridiculous to the point of absurdity.

Of course it may not be the best solution, but it is permissible.

 

[Mattyi26]

So am i not doing the certs correctly?

 

[Pete999]

Or multiple MEIWCs.

It's funny that he has "joined Stroma" but doesn't understand what certificates are required though!

Or a MNWC with multiple circuits

 

[Pete999]

In theory yes, but there comes a point where that becomes ridiculous to the point of absurdity.

Think that's where the word SCAM comes from Dave, if you can join with not knowing which cert to issue, it's a sad day at the office. IMO anyway

 

[telectrix]

O{. it's pretty simple really. if all you are doing is altering or extending an existing circuit, use a MWC. anything more, then it's a full EIC, what's difficult about that?

 

[Risteard]

Or a MNWC with multiple circuits

I'm not really sure what you mean by that one unless it's that NAPIT invention of a multiple circuit Minor Electrical Installation Works Certificate. There certainly isn't one like that in the BS7671 Model Forms.

 

[telectrix]

I'm not really sure what you mean by that one unless it's that NAPIT invention of a multiple circuit Minor Electrical Installation Works Certificate. There certainly isn't one like that in the BS7671 Model Forms.

true, but a MWC only needs to be based on that shown in BS7671 and a single MWC for alterations to 2 or 3 circuits is, IMO, acceptable.

 

[Pete999]

I'm not really sure what you mean by that one unless it's that NAPIT invention of a multiple circuit Minor Electrical Installation Works Certificate. There certainly isn't one like that in the BS7671 Model Forms.

http://elecsa.co.uk/Documents/Public-Documents/Contractors/BS7671-Amd1-Minor-Works-Certificate-(1).aspx

Think thats the one

 

[Risteard]

true, but a MWC only needs to be based on that shown in BS7671 and a single MWC for alterations to 2 or 3 circuits is, IMO, acceptable.

I wasn't trying to suggest that it's necessarily prohibited - I was just trying to establish if that was the form being referred to.

AFAIK it is only a NAPIT invention. I don't think it's available elsewhere (although I may be mistaken).

 

[Risteard]

http://elecsa.co.uk/Documents/Public-Documents/Contractors/BS7671-Amd1-Minor-Works-Certificate-(1).aspx

Think thats the one

Apologies, it was ELECSA rather than NAPIT (or perhaps both have versions).

 

[gnselectricals]

Apologies, it was ELECSA rather than NAPIT (or perhaps both have versions).

Yeah NAPIT have a similar one also

 

[sparksburnout]

It's all very well debating about the different variations of certificates the scams might have dreamed up, the point is, how have STROMA let this guy in when he obviously has no idea what he is doing, when it comes to issuing certificates. Hopefully he may be better at the practical side of things. I take the point about apprenticeships, but this is area is covered in most of the accepted courses that have been recognised for years. I find it quite staggering that someone who is changing CU's has no idea of the certification required.
This is typical of STROMA, spending 20 mins farting about trying to get a lock off device on a CU before taking the cover of, and not being bothered about what is really important, which speaks volumes about what they are really about.

 

[Risteard]

the point is, how have STROMA let this guy in when he obviously has no idea what he is doing, when it comes to issuing certificates.

Exactly what I was questioning in post #4!!!

 

[GETWIRED]

I thought he was just asking if he is going round the houses with his certs? And if there is a quicker way? Lol
imo atleast he's issuing a bloody certificate, every job i seem to go to recently the client has no paperwork for past work.

 

[Risteard]

every job i seem to go to recently the client has no paperwork for past work.

Whilst it's undoubtedly a hugely common problem, I suspect much of the time that the Client has indeed received the paperwork the recycling bin is soon fed it.

 

[Octopus]

I thought he was just asking if he is going round the houses with his certs? And if there is a quicker way? Lol
imo atleast he's issuing a bloody certificate, every job i seem to go to recently the client has no paperwork for past work.

no invoice and no cert......

I recently went to one where, in exchange for £550 he had a new plastic CU (this was in Dec) and no paperwork. Aparently the chap was there for about 6 hours.....

So about £470 gross profit for a days work and no tax to pay.....

and obviously no Part P

 

[gnselectricals]

no invoice and no cert......

I recently went to one where, in exchange for £550 he had a new plastic CU (this was in Dec) and no paperwork. Aparently the chap was there for about 6 hours.....

So about £470 gross profit for a days work and no tax to pay.....

and obviously no Part P

I also had a job end of Dec, upgraded bathrooms in 2 neighbouring houses owned by same people. 'New' plastic db's in each with shower circuit in 1, all accessories and db's second hand.
'Electrician' was hobbling in the nights after work and stayed in one house til 11.30 and left after disconnecting hallway light due to dual rcd trip.
No bonding in either, other house had existing l-e-n fault which was left in place, all with big promises to return.
Customers paid over £600 each per house plus my charges to put right after the other guy disappeared. No invoices, Certs or notification either

 

[GETWIRED]

no invoice and no cert......

I recently went to one where, in exchange for £550 he had a new plastic CU (this was in Dec) and no paperwork. Aparently the chap was there for about 6 hours.....

So about £470 gross profit for a days work and no tax to pay.....

and obviously no Part P

great that isnt it... How people have the balls and plain cheek to charge like that. Im crap at pricing; hold my hands up, i bet 60% of the time ive gone in to cheap and end up kicking myself - then you hear about people charging like that for a cu change.

 

[Leesparkykent]

I charge around £400-£450 for a board change.

 

[Risteard]

then you hear about people charging like that for a cu change.

I can't see the problem if people are prepared to pay it. I neither have nor seek charitable status.

 

[GETWIRED]

Is that domestic or commercial? And where abouts are you, i suppose pricing differs around the country. I only have 4-5 spark mates and i think the general price range for us is consistant at 180-260 depending on what exactly needs doing, had a few conversations about pricing etc. i need to start upping prices just for the new aches and pains that seem to be appearing everyday lol

 

[DPG]

Is that domestic or commercial? And where abouts are you, i suppose pricing differs around the country. I only have 4-5 spark mates and i think the general price range for us is consistant at 180-260 depending on what exactly needs doing, had a few conversations about pricing etc. i need to start upping prices just for the new aches and pains that seem to be appearing everyday lol

£180 for a CU change and certify? Let me know your details - you can change mine Daz

 

[Leesparkykent]

£180 for a CU change and certify? Let me know your details - you can change mine Daz

Lol 100 for an amendment 3 board, diesel, notification, time spent quoting/surveying job and time spent picking up material....might just about make around £15 for a days work haha.

 

[Octopus]

£180 for a CU change and certify? Let me know your details - you can change mine Daz

That can't include the hardware surely??????

 

[sparksburnout]

Is that domestic or commercial? And where abouts are you, i suppose pricing differs around the country. I only have 4-5 spark mates and i think the general price range for us is consistant at 180-260 depending on what exactly needs doing, had a few conversations about pricing etc. i need to start upping prices just for the new aches and pains that seem to be appearing everyday lol

I have only just noticed this after enjoying the Easter break, and I have a feeling it might have slipped under the radar. £180 to £260 for a board change??? Are you fking mental or something? No wonder this industry is in a mess, what do you think charging that amount is going to achieve? Do you do the job properly?? Certs? proper testing? Proper workmanship? Proper evaluation of the other factors involved? This is a joke surely??? I notice you have no quals in your profile, are you a proper sparky or a quick in-out yeee-haaaa?

 

[GETWIRED]

That can't include the hardware surely??????

Jesus christ, labour only that is ha!

 

[GETWIRED]

I have only just noticed this after enjoying the Easter break, and I have a feeling it might have slipped under the radar. £180 to £260 for a board change??? Are you fking mental or something? No wonder this industry is in a mess, what do you think charging that amount is going to achieve? Do you do the job properly?? Certs? proper testing? Proper workmanship? Proper evaluation of the other factors involved? This is a joke surely??? I notice you have no quals in your profile, are you a proper sparky or a quick in-out yeee-haaaa?

what are you on about? I think you need to get down from that shire of a horse you're on son.
1) no my mental health is perfectly fine so i believe.
2)the industry is a mess because im charging that amount for a days work and not because we have complete arse about face ambassadors for the industry that charge us extortionate amounts every three years for another course or another set of books? Good thinking.
3) no i leave all fuxking wires hanging out the front and leave it. Oh and i purposely make sure the board isnt IP rated to IPx4 but it doesnt matter the tails arent terminated anyway, they're hanging out the front with the rest of the curcuit conductors, but its ok i changed the unit like the customer asked... And as for certification, Bin days are every two weeks up here now so id rather do the customer a favour and keep it all in the van.
4) posting qualifications on a public forum, i have no objections to the people that have but id personally prefere not to, is that a problem? I know what i've got, my college tutors know what ive got, the old on-site assessors know what ive got, even the JIB know what i've got, why must i post it publicly?
5) yes i do; do quite a good yee-haa although im no cowboy.

My post was quite misleading in the respect that i didnt put labour only, but if you think i can supply, fit and sign off a full cu change fpr £180 then please ask yourself those questions you just asked me. If you were unsure then juat type out, and ASK like what the other member did before you. Slipped under the radar? Ha! Like i said, climb down from that horse.

i do hope you enjoyed your Easter break.

 

[DPG]

what are you on about? I think you need to get down from that shire of a horse you're on son.
1) no my mental health is perfectly fine so i believe.
2)the industry is a mess because im charging that amount for a days work and not because we have complete arse about face ambassadors for the industry that charge us extortionate amounts every three years for another course or another set of books? Good thinking.
3) no i leave all fuxking wires hanging out the front and leave it. Oh and i purposely make sure the board isnt IP rated to IPx4 but it doesnt matter the tails arent terminated anyway, they're hanging out the front with the rest of the curcuit conductors, but its ok i changed the unit like the customer asked... And as for certification, Bin days are every two weeks up here now so id rather do the customer a favour and keep it all in the van.
4) posting qualifications on a public forum, i have no objections to the people that have but id personally prefere not to, is that a problem? I know what i've got, my college tutors know what ive got, the old on-site assessors know what ive got, even the JIB know what i've got, why must i post it publicly?
5) yes i do; do quite a good yee-haa although im no cowboy.

My post was quite misleading in the respect that i didnt put labour only, but if you think i can supply, fit and sign off a full cu change fpr £180 then please ask yourself those questions you just asked me. If you were unsure then juat type out, and ASK like what the other member did before you. Slipped under the radar? Ha! Like i said, climb down from that horse.

i do hope you enjoyed your Easter break.

Yes, you should have stated 'labour only' if that's what you meant. Daz

 

[sparksburnout]

what are you on about? I think you need to get down from that shire of a horse you're on son.
1) no my mental health is perfectly fine so i believe.
2)the industry is a mess because im charging that amount for a days work and not because we have complete arse about face ambassadors for the industry that charge us extortionate amounts every three years for another course or another set of books? Good thinking.
3) no i leave all fuxking wires hanging out the front and leave it. Oh and i purposely make sure the board isnt IP rated to IPx4 but it doesnt matter the tails arent terminated anyway, they're hanging out the front with the rest of the curcuit conductors, but its ok i changed the unit like the customer asked... And as for certification, Bin days are every two weeks up here now so id rather do the customer a favour and keep it all in the van.
4) posting qualifications on a public forum, i have no objections to the people that have but id personally prefere not to, is that a problem? I know what i've got, my college tutors know what ive got, the old on-site assessors know what ive got, even the JIB know what i've got, why must i post it publicly?
5) yes i do; do quite a good yee-haa although im no cowboy.

My post was quite misleading in the respect that i didnt put labour only, but if you think i can supply, fit and sign off a full cu change fpr £180 then please ask yourself those questions you just asked me. If you were unsure then juat type out, and ASK like what the other member did before you. Slipped under the radar? Ha! Like i said, climb down from that horse.

i do hope you enjoyed your Easter break.

If you don't have any proper quals, then just say so, no need to go off on one, SON. You are correct, your post obviously was misleading, so try and be a bit more accurate in figure. Hope your CU changes are better eh? And yes I Had a great Easter break ta.

 

[GETWIRED]

If you don't have any proper quals, then just say so, no need to go off on one, SON. You are correct, your post obviously was misleading, so try and be a bit more accurate in figure. Hope your CU changes are better eh? And yes I Had a great Easter break ta.

and go on, what is your take on proper quals? still on that high horse i see, maybe your mrs could buy you a comfortable saddle? Maybe a double for you and that big arse ego.

 

[davesparks]

and go on, what is your take on proper quals? still on that high horse i see, maybe your mrs could buy you a comfortable saddle? Maybe a double for you and that big arse ego.

Without any clue as to your qualifications, and it doesn't have to be specific just saying that you served an apprenticeship in this trade would do (if you have), then we only have your previous posts to base an opinion of your ability on.
Looking at your posts on electrical matters then it's easy to see why people are sceptical of your knowledge and ability

 

[sparksburnout]

and go on, what is your take on proper quals? still on that high horse i see, maybe your mrs could buy you a comfortable saddle? Maybe a double for you and that big arse ego.

You wouldn't happen to be a Bon Jovi fan would you?

 

[GETWIRED]

Without any clue as to your qualifications, and it doesn't have to be specific just saying that you served an apprenticeship in this trade would do (if you have), then we only have your previous posts to base an opinion of your ability on.
Looking at your posts on electrical matters then it's easy to see why people are sceptical of your knowledge and ability

I understand that hence have hesitantly put them on, and before anyone points out i know im not as qualified as some, but i am JIB recognised if i bothered to renew my ecs.

can i ask which posts you're refering to?

 

[davesparks]

I understand that hence have hesitantly put them on, and before anyone points out i know im not as qualified as some, but i am JIB recognised if i bothered to renew my ecs.

can i ask which posts you're refering to?

Ive never yet bothered with the JIB, and I'm not sure I'd get a very good grade even if I did.
I am however BPA registered!

Posts about a tripping RCD and a garage supply stick in the mind.

(BPA = British Pyrotechnists Association)

 

[GETWIRED]

Ive never yet bothered with the JIB, and I'm not sure I'd get a very good grade even if I did.
I am however BPA registered!

Posts about a tripping RCD and a garage supply stick in the mind.

(BPA = British Pyrotechnists Association)

Neither do i, when i did it was because i had to.

Rcd tripping, read the thread, i posted that before i went to the job as i had already been there previously and found a faulty appliance, i found the second fault within 20 minutes and i had previously mentioned it to the customer the first visit. Imo doesnt display any incompetency?

Garage supply, i dont think people quite got where i was coming from on that one and it was taken as i was asking for a step by step guide, which i wasnt, maybe i should of outlined my question abit better, i'll hold my hands up on that one. The reason i asked was to get an opinion as i said i just come off 6 months working in rewire teams on high-rise council flats and seeing nothing but trunking an T&E.

Didnt need to explain myself but i have. I got arsey because ive seen people get jumped on on here quite often and it sort of makes out that they know everything and quite frank they dont and it just comes as being arrogant and its not always necessary, i come here to give/take advice not to be jumped on over a mis-typed post about a price.

 

[davesparks]

Neither do i, when i did it was because i had to.

Rcd tripping, read the thread, i posted that before i went to the job as i had already been there previously and found a faulty appliance, i found the second fault within 20 minutes and i had previously mentioned it to the customer the first visit. Imo doesnt display any incompetency?

Garage supply, i dont think people quite got where i was coming from on that one and it was taken as i was asking for a step by step guide, which i wasnt, maybe i should of outlined my question abit better, i'll hold my hands up on that one. The reason i asked was to get an opinion as i said i just come off 6 months working in rewire teams on high-rise council flats and seeing nothing but trunking an T&E.

Didnt need to explain myself but i have. I got arsey because ive seen people get jumped on on here quite often and it sort of makes out that they know everything and quite frank they dont and it just comes as being arrogant and its not always necessary, i come here to give/take advice not to be jumped on over a mis-typed post about a price.

I have read the threads, I have formed an opinion based on them and other posts, much as I am sure you have formed opinions on mine and everyone else's posts. I'm not going to pick them apart and criticise, nor argue about it.

Communicating in a written form on the forum gives the opportunity to proof read posts and edit them for a short time after posting. If after writing the posts, reading through it to check for errors, and then checking it again once posted, you have not managed to communicate effectively and in a precise and technical manner then you have only yourself to blame.
I appreciate that some people have difficulty with spelling or communicating through written English, but on a forum you have no time restriction on how long you spend writing a post so everyone should be able to have proof read and reviewed their posts before posting.
This is after all a technical trade based in both scientific theory and practical ability so everyone here must be capable of effective technical communication to be able to practice their trade so there is no reason not to write clear and understandable posts.

 

[GETWIRED]

I have read the threads, I have formed an opinion based on them and other posts, much as I am sure you have formed opinions on mine and everyone else's posts. I'm not going to pick them apart and criticise, nor argue about it.

Communicating in a written form on the forum gives the opportunity to proof read posts and edit them for a short time after posting. If after writing the posts, reading through it to check for errors, and then checking it again once posted, you have not managed to communicate effectively and in a precise and technical manner then you have only yourself to blame.
I appreciate that some people have difficulty with spelling or communicating through written English, but on a forum you have no time restriction on how long you spend writing a post so everyone should be able to have proof read and reviewed their posts before posting.
This is after all a technical trade based in both scientific theory and practical ability so everyone here must be capable of effective technical communication to be able to practice their trade so there is no reason not to write clear and understandable posts.

:willy_nilly: Not really getting anywhere here are we. As im on my phone and this forum keeps reloading the browser halfway through messages, i type my posts and press done, thats it. Ive said that on numerous posts. Now im off to go listen to my new bon jovi album.

g'night matey

 

[davesparks]

Then use the forum on a more stable device, it's hardly something which requires urgent attention via a phone.
Or else use the tapatalk app for mobile devices