Green Deal & Eco Funds

[sedgy34]

Interesting

 

[sedgy34]

So greendeal finance is almost available the solar industry will be kick started again won't it

 

[SRE]

With the hikes due in August? I can't see it - can you?

 

[sedgy34]

I sure can mate solar will be just 1 of 3,4,5 different measures on a green deal plan

 

[TedM]

no idea what any of that is, so I assume I can't, or at least can't be bothered.

The EPR tells you how much CO2 is (supposed) to be saved by a new boiler.

GD Brokerage tells you how much an amount of CO2 savings is priced at.

Multiply one by the other to get the GD ECO value of the boiler replacement.

 

[SRE]

Well I certainly hope it does, you've worked hard at it for long enough

 

[sedgy34]

Trouble is where are the greendeal customers lol are they Eco customers in disguise

 

[Greenday]

That's nearly right. Boilers are priced at pounds saving over life of boiler and then auctioned at pence in the pound.

The providers are trying to keep all the real profit but its a risk if they can't fulfil their commitment to brokerage. So installers hang fire especially if you can deliver big numbers!

We all need to make a living and low prices to installers will just deliver crap jobs!

 

[sedgy34]

The providers have had some meetings and I'm assuming have decided together to screw the installer a bit more

 

[Greenday]

I'm talking about ECO! Plenty of enquiries for Green Deal shame system isn't working!

BG obviously not interested whilst they are emptying the ECO pot!

Suspect there will be lots of installer casualties! Only for the brave or stupid!

 

[Eco Deal]

If your entering the market now forget eco funding for boilers your too late this year. its all given out. Providers all have different business models some pay p/£ others set rates...... everybody as setup small networks and coming in now will be hard I am so glad I took the gamble while all you guys where taking the P ...... I think green deal is the way forward and it will bring solar back but along side say EWI and other measures all rolled into the same green deal plan...... Also there is talk you council tax will go off your EPC. The EPC is the new king of construction........ good times are coming for us fingers crossed I even hand my RECC audit in today ready for solar

 

[Gavin A]

So greendeal finance is almost available the solar industry will be kick started again won't it

if it kick starts solar the same way it's kick started every other measure, I can't wait for that extra couple of jobs to share between the industry nationwide.

We've kick started it ourselves anyway.

 

[Gavin A]

If your entering the market now forget eco funding for boilers your too late this year. its all given out. Providers all have different business models some pay p/£ others set rates...... everybody as setup small networks and coming in now will be hard I am so glad I took the gamble while all you guys where taking the P**s ...... I think green deal is the way forward and it will bring solar back but along side say EWI and other measures all rolled into the same green deal plan...... Also there is talk you council tax will go off your EPC. The EPC is the new king of construction........ good times are coming for us fingers crossed I even hand my RECC audit in today ready for solar

Have you actually had any green deal funded installs (of any technology) carried out through to the installers being paid?

I really just don't see it myself, all I see is an incredibly complex, time consuming, relatively high interest finance plan albeit with lots of government bribes that are 99% going to none green deal funded new boiler installs by some odd quirk of the system.

Not going to knock back eco funding for solar in electrically heated properties if it were available to help persuade housing associations etc to do projects, but I'm guessing it'd be a hell of a lot of work with every possibility the funding would suddenly dry up just at the point the project was about to get green lighted or something.

 

[SolarCity]

EPC. The EPC is the new king of construction........ good times are coming for us fingers crossed

I agree with that. Those that took the leap for the Green Deal should be in a good position for whatever scheme comes next even if the Green Deal fails.

 

[TedM]

That's nearly right. Boilers are priced at pounds saving over life of boiler and then auctioned at pence in the pound.

The providers are trying to keep all the real profit but its a risk if they can't fulfil their commitment to brokerage. So installers hang fire especially if you can deliver big numbers!

We all need to make a living and low prices to installers will just deliver crap jobs!

The Affordable Warmth part of ECO is brokered at £/tonne of CO2 saving. Was £125/tonne in April but now fallen to £95/tonne. (The brokerage is how an 'independant' GDP gets funds from an energy supplier but will not apply to a Big6er who is both, so they will have other means of deciding price.) Yes, other parts of ECO are priced differently.

There are plenty of rumours (on LinkedIn) of bad practices around ECO that are being investigated by Gemserv. Expect more bad publicity for GD.

I also see that in Germany their equivalent of the GD is financed at 1% and is a big success.

 

[Worcester]

I think green deal is the way forward

I take it that you mean it is the way forward for your particular business model.

There is now and will continue to be a substantial market for renewable technology installers WITHOUT the need for the Green Deal or ECO.

If you like 'bashing' lots of properties for low margins, then fine, go with the Green Deal certified, I don't see it though as the BEST business model for smaller businesses

Bearing in mind the governments problem with the UK's ageing housing stock, and that a lot of that is either Housing Association or Privately tennanted accomodation I still see the Grren Deal as primarily a replacement for CERT (Carbon Emissions Reduction Target) and CESP (Community Energy Saving Programme) and the big winners in this will be as before the big6 and large nationals like Carillion, Mark Group, DGI etc

The Government's spin machine has the ability to publicise the £1.3 billion a year ECO funds as Green Deal successes.

What I do see, is a lot more awareness of energy saving / energy cost reduction, and the good thing is most of those customers want to do it themselves as they don't trust the goverment to see the scheme through lomg term, and don;t see a short term win aka 'What's in it for me'.

With over 86% of the UK's housing stock worse than an EPC of D (the governments own figures) they would have a riot bigger than the poll tax on their hands if they tried to link that to your council tax..

What will happen when the ECO obligation runs out in 2015, is uncertain yet, - whatever happens it's going to be a ball

 

[The Solar King]

I also see that in Germany their equivalent of the GD is financed at 1% and is a big success.

If only. It is just a pity we had to have a so called market solution where only big business could get their snouts in the trough. We should have had a system of central finance provision at 1% with customers able to go to any GD installer without all the rubbish of GDPs and the like. They can give money at 1% or less to their friends in the banks to fund first time buyers so helping their friends in the large construction sector but not to do something that would have given an instant and immediate stimulus by getting an army of trades people rushed off their feet. There would be no waiting for trickle down, it would be an instant multiplier effect in the economy.

The Government keeps on talking about wanting to finance 'shovel ready' projects to get the economy moving (HS2 for instance). GD could be going like a fair but not with the stupidity currently surrounding it.

 

[Greenday]

The Affordable Warmth part of ECO is brokered at £/tonne of CO2 saving. Was £125/tonne in April but now fallen to £95/tonne. (The brokerage is how an 'independant' GDP gets funds from an energy supplier but will not apply to a Big6er who is both, so they will have other means of deciding price.) Yes, other parts of ECO are priced differently.

There are plenty of rumours (on LinkedIn) of bad practices around ECO that are being investigated by Gemserv. Expect more bad publicity for GD.

I also see that in Germany their equivalent of the GD is financed at 1% and is a big success.

As far as Im aware ECO is split 3 ways

CERO- Carbon Emissions Reduction Obligation---Basically hard to treat cavity and external wall insulation------Priced in £/tCO2

CSCO-Carbon Saving Community Obligation--Basically focus is low income and rural communities fro insulation measures---priced in £/tCO2

HHRCO (used to be affordable warmth)--Home Heating Cost Reduction Obligation--- Basically heating measures for the fuel poor---priced in pence in the pound

Hope this is right!

 

[TedM]

Yes, I'm confused by the fact that ECO brokerage still uses the terms "Affordable Warmth" and "Carbon Saving Obligation" - https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...le/210605/ECO_Brokerage_eAuction13_020713.pdf
It is the CSO that is £/tonne CO2.

 

[SolarCity]

Some posts moved to Sun Lounge

 

[Gavin A]

Some posts moved to Sun Lounge

unless I'm missing something, you seem to have actually deleted them.

 

[sedgy34]

I think Ecodeal responded to another solar savings winedup and he reacted the post was removed I think

 

[solarsavings]

What are you talking about?

 

[SolarCity]

unless I'm missing something, you seem to have actually deleted them.

I moved them and the deleted them on Eco Deal's request.

 

[solarsavings]

Would the posts about ploughcroft have been removed if Chris hopkins had asked that they be deleted.

 

[SolarCity]

If you can want to start a new thread in the Sun Lounge about the subject then feel free to do so.

 

[Greenday]

How do you get access to the sun lounge? Tried several times and have had no response

 

[Megavolt]

So what's happening with Eco and the green deal now. Has the green deal got going yet.

 

[Gavin A]

So what's happening with Eco and the green deal now. Has the green deal got going yet.

think green deal is into double figures now nationally, so obviously is a rip roaring success.

Eco.... just been hearing something pretty bad today about a major external wall insulation project where the company involved is now trying to get a few thousand extra off the owners per building as the ECO funding isn't high enough to cover the costs.... that and some very dodgy goings on with a shady firm of ECO funded gas fitters apparently going around not paying contractors and suppliers for months on end due to the 90 day payment terms they're getting from ECO funders, and the way this means they're getting one gas fitter after another to work for them for a month til they realise they're not getting paid, then move on to the next.... shambles IMO.

 

[solarsavings]

That's not good news Gavin a lot of the guys on the gas forum I go on are installing as many as 5 boilers a week and I doubt many could could wait 90 days for payment.

 

[Gavin A]

That's not good news Gavin a lot of the guys on the gas forum I go on are installing as many as 5 boilers a week and I doubt many could could wait 90 days for payment.

that's if they get paid at all, sounds likethis firm is just bumping each new fitter that comes along, then dangling the carrot of 5 installs a week in front of the next mug...

should have had the same emphasis on short maximium payment terms as has apparently been going on in the public sector in recent years - one of the stupid things about out sourcing it all to the private sector so that normal public sector procurement rules such as this don't apply (although obviously those same procurement rules are a complete nightmare in other respects).

 

[The Solar King]

Was talking to someone I know who is a private landlord with quite a few tenants in receipt of benefits. He will get new boilers FOC for a number of his properties under ECO but delivered through large organisations. He knows that if he had to pay himself, the same work would be a whole lot cheaper. So these companies are playing it both ends. The whole programme stinks. It is time to get rid of these middle men and get their ugly snouts out of the trough.

Total revision of the Green Deal is the only way to sort this.

 

[Megavolt]

This sounds bad news all round. I am pas aproved but am unsure now. Is there no company that is good to deal with provider wise or are they all a shower of bad stuff

 

[Gavin A]

sure there must be good companies around as well... there's a couple posting on this thread, one not that far off from you.

 

[SRE]

The £20m community GD fund launched made me laugh today. Innovative new ideas of going street by street in an area, cos that's never been done successfully before has it! Lots & lots of talk about "blending" ECO & GD giving some credit to what Worcester was saying a couple of weeks ago about the GD & ECO being merged. The best bit was that you are measured on GDP take up on the one hand but on the other it's not all about GDPs. Total mess.

The blog about why the last report released from DECC about house prices and EPC's being linked was even more shambolic. I'm glad we're not involved but I really feel for those who took the plunge & spent time and money getting ready for it.

 

[sedgy34]

the late payments mentioned are down to the utility companys not sorting the backlog quickly enough
most installers will suffer from this.

 

[SRE]

Yup that's what they've been saying since 1998 when they started having to pay for this sort of thing under SOP. You'd have thought they would have got that backlog sorted by now! Just remember where the power (and cash) lies. As long as you have the cash to bankroll the utilities (tail wagging dog) then you've got a chance of outliving those with little or no funds.

 

[Jimy]

Ive just got off the phone with the energy saving trust and they say ECO only covers gas boilers and insulation. Is that right?

 

[Gavin A]

no. Though that could be right in your circumstances maybe as tehre are different strands of funding that different situations are eligible for or not

 

[TedM]

ECO consists of three parts.

1. Carbon Emission Reduction Obligation (CERO) which is for insulation of solid wall and hard-to-treat cavity wall properties or connection to a district heating system (in association with the insulation). Available to anyone with an eligible property as determined by a chartered surveyor.
2. Carbon Saving Community Obligation (CSCO) for people who live in specific geographic locations (there is a list of these) and covers insulation and associated connection to a district heating system. Part of this obligation is for people who are members of the Affordable Warmth Group.
3. Home Heating Cost Reduction Obligation (HHCRO) is to provide measures to homeowners who are in receipt of specific welfare benefits (including members of the Affordable Warmth Group).

A full list of the eligible measures for each part is available here: http://www.ofgem.gov.uk/Sustainabil...st of Measures and Additional Information.pdf

Under HHCRO virtually all of the measures are eligible where they result in cost savings for the homeowner or improve their ability to affordably heat their home. Being a homeowner is critical for HHCRO; it is not available for tenants. CERO and CSCO are available to anyone who is a domestic energy user.

 

[Jimy]

Thanks Fellas.

If anyone covers the North West of England and fits boilers etc could you send me a message and I'll pass on the details.

 

[sedgy34]

Try Ecodeal

 

[Worcester]

Paving the way to stiff the tenant :

From Twitter:

DECC DECCgovuk
07 Aug
RT @nationalandlord: 1/2 #NLA welcomes the Governments response on the Consumer Credit Act & hopes it finally allows #landlords to take advantage of #GreenDeal

https://www.gov.uk/government/consu...t-act-1974-for-the-purposes-of-the-green-deal
"Consultation on the proposal to amend the definition of “debtor” in Section 189 of the Consumer Credit Act (1974) for the purposes of the Green Deal"

 

[John Barsby]

Not having a lot of luck trying to get a decent rate from providers that are accepting new installers. Off for a meeting with Green Deal Central tomorrow so I hope a good deal can be made.
If not then I don't know what to do, we currently have 5 jobs ready to roll and around 30+ jobs pre qualified ready to survey and EPC.

 

[sedgy34]

Not having a lot of luck trying to get a decent rate from providers that are accepting new installers. Off for a meeting with Green Deal Central tomorrow so I hope a good deal can be made.
If not then I don't know what to do, we currently have 5 jobs ready to roll and around 30+ jobs pre qualified ready to survey and EPC.

Pm me matey

 

[John Barsby]

Just as an update - we are now getting funding through Green Deal Central fitting 2-5 boilers per week. Were having to turn some jobs down due to low funding though.

 

[Eco Deal]

We have funding for HHCRO - CERO & CSCO if you want to see if we can help you on the funding side John.

 

[John Barsby]

Thanks Eco Deal, Just HHCRO - boilers I'm dealing with at present. Off out on a solar pv install today, pm me your number and I'll try and remember to give you a ring tomorrow.

 

[TedM]

DECC consultation on changes to ECO closes 16 April - https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/the-future-of-the-energy-company-obligation

One of the main changes that could help homeowners will be the inclusion of loft and cavity wall insulation under CERO.

Crucially it is clear that standard insulation opportunities can, at the moment, deliver carbon
savings at lower cost per tonne in ECO subsidy than harder to treat measures. In the context of
immediate concerns about the overall costs of ECO and its impact upon consumer bills, it is
more difficult to justify a policy which excludes these measures. The Government therefore
proposes that loft insulation (including both virgin and top-up loft insulation) and standard cavity
wall insulation measures installed from April 2014 should be eligible as primary measures under
CERO. Therefore, the current differentiation between hard-to-treat and standard cavities would
be removed, with all forms of cavity wall potentially eligible for treatment under CERO

We would propose that the eligibility rules, as set out under the current legislation, on measures
under CERO would continue to apply to the new primary measures. So to qualify under CERO
loft and cavity wall insulation will have to:
a. be a recommended measure;
b. improve the insulation properties of the premises; and
c. comply with PAS 2030.

For loft insulation as a new primary measure Government recognise that a de-minimis level for
the depth and area of the insulation is appropriate to ensure optimal treatment prior to triggering
secondary measures. We therefore propose that to support the ‘secondary measure’ status of
another measure loft insulation must be:
a. installed in lofts which currently have less than or equal to 150mm of insulation (to a
level of at least 250mm of insulation); and
b. installed to at least 50 per cent of the total area of the loft.

For cavity wall insulation as a new primary measure we propose that a de-minimis level for the
area of the insulation is appropriate prior to triggering secondary measures. We therefore
propose that to support the ‘secondary measure’ status of another measure cavity wall
insulation must be installed to at least 50 per cent of the total exterior-facing walls of the
premises.

 

[TedM]

New Green Deal Home Improvement Fund (GDHIF) announced today by DECC to try to boost the Green Deal:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/7600-to-make-your-home-more-energy-efficient