Help needed to review quality of distributer box installation

[Octopus]

I'm just fed up with you banging on about profiles TBH.
I'll get over it...... eventually.

Not banging on .......

 

[MG201]

this Article clearly states the issue

 

[MG201]

2nd part

 

[Dave OCD]

JK - I've just read your comments on the 'VCR' that you produced and I have to say that's excellent ! We need more people like you in the trade .

 

[MG201]

JK - I've just read your comments on the 'VCR' that you produced and I have to say that's excellent ! We need more people like you in the trade .

Page 6 lol thanks

 

[Dave OCD]

Page 6 lol thanks

Well the thing is mate with so many on here chatting all the time some of us have to be out there getting on with the work, so I sometimes have to do a bit of catching up on here.

 

[JK-Electrical]

Not banging on .......

​

 

[JK-Electrical]

JK - I've just read your comments on the 'VCR' that you produced and I have to say that's excellent ! We need more people like you in the trade .

Thank you Dave.

 

[Toneyz]

Some things should be kept in the pub.

 

[Toneyz]

This is the problem with Electrical Trainee/boil in the bag electricians they do all the academic side ok and have a limited practical experiance from the booths think they are a electrician get a job and are out of their depth through lack of (practical) experiance.

Not all of us

I racked up lots of practical experience of all sorts of building and electrical work before I climbed out of my office cubicle. But, from my personal experience, you're largely on the money.

To the two that put a disagree I am referring to someone who has absolutely no experience at all postman one day 5 weeks later an electrician replacing consumer units and rewiring houses.

 

[Octopus]

2nd part

View attachment 45276

The paragraph entitled "Current Weaknesses" makes an interesting read .........

And Scottish home owners suffer the same as in England - i.e. a distinct lack of awareness of the schemes, regs etc?

So in Scotland anybody can call themselves a spark without any qualifications? That's how I read it!

Sounds like lots of our European friends down here ........

 

[JK-Electrical]

The paragraph entitled "Current Weaknesses" makes an interesting read .........

And Scottish home owners suffer the same as in England - i.e. a distinct lack of awareness of the schemes, regs etc?

So in Scotland anybody can call themselves a spark without any qualifications? That's how I read it!

Sounds like lots of our European friends down here ........

You are reading correctly, Murdoch. In Scotland, anyone can represent themselves as an electrician and then go do sub-standard electrical installation work in people's homes. MyBuilder and Rated People are full of wetpants, kitchen-fitters, bathroom-fitters, builders and handymen who all suffer from the delusion that they are competent electricians.

 

[Octopus]

You are reading correctly, Murdoch. In Scotland, anyone can represent themselves as an electrician and then go do sub-standard electrical installation work in people's homes. MyBuilder and Rated People are full of wetpants, kitchen-fitters, bathroom-fitters, builders and handymen who all suffer from the delusion that they are competent electricians.

The last sentence of the Select Document in post #142 - was that written by the SNP?

As far as I'm aware, building regs in Scotland come under the responsibility of the Devolved Government ................ so surely they have control over this ....................... or is it the usual of if in doubt blame Westminster , so to deflect any eyes away from us?

 

[JK-Electrical]

The last sentence of the Select Document in post #142 - was that written by the SNP?

As far as I'm aware, building regs in Scotland come under the responsibility of the Devolved Government ................ so surely they have control over this ....................... or is it the usual of if in doubt blame Westminster , so to deflect any eyes away from us?

You are correct ..... the Scottish Government has responsibility for building regulations in Scotland, and as far as electrical installation work is concerned, the regulations are somewhat lax. For instance, a building warrant would be required if an additional socket was to be installed in a tenement building. But a warrant is not required for a consumer unit changeover. This is a somewhat bizarre arrangement to say the least. More bizarre still, in a tenement building, a building warrant is required for the installation of a mains-operated smoke alarm, but not for the installation of a shower. A building warrant is required for rewiring a flat located within a tenement building, but not for a house unless it consists of more than two storeys. You couldn't make this up.

The sentence that you're referring to is from a report produced almost two years ago by SELECT. Electrician As A Profession - The Case For Regulation. I've uploaded the document as a PDF file. What they're getting at here is since it was Westminster who introduced the Part P legislation that in turn has led to creation of Electrical Trainee 'domestic installer' courses, they are ultimately to blame for the downskilling of the trade, at least in the domestic sector anyway. Short course participants who 'qualify' as 'electricians' in England and Wales are then given grade cards which they can use in Scotland to purport themselves as electricians. I know of several such types who are based in Scotland, but who did a short-course in England so to acquire the necessary documentation that will allow them to pass themselves off as 'qualified'. I know for a fact that this practice is happening up here.

What the SELECT report does not mention, however, is that the Scottish Government are as equally culpable for the poor state of the electrical contracting industry in Scotland, for under the present system that THEY themselves designed and implemented, anyone can call themselves an 'electrician' and trade accordingly. And many do. I've been in the trade since 1976, and have noticed a sharp increase over the last decade or so in the number of rogue installations that I come across. Indeed, a few weeks ago, EVERY single job that I attended in the course of one working week had serious defects, all of which were caused by non-skilled personnel. This has got to stop. To my mind, the question is when someone is killed rather than if.

The UK and Scottish Governments must shoulder the lion's share of blame for the sorry state of our industry as they are the ones who are responsible for legislation. The NICEIC and the training centres are also to blame, for it is they who have been churning-out 'boil-in-the-bag' 'electricians' conveyor-belt style. Kerching, kerching, kerching.

 

[Octopus]

Hum ........... we have all sorts of people, UK and European doing sparking around here ................ Governments won't change this ......... so I can't see how Holyrood are going to change anything north of the Border

Obviously Select will keep raising this so as to keep themselves busy ...

 

[JK-Electrical]

Hum ........... we have all sorts of people, UK and European doing sparking around here ................ Governments won't change this ......... so I can't see how Holyrood are going to change anything north of the Border

Obviously Select will keep raising this so as to keep themselves busy ...

Holyrood has the power to act, but chooses not to. The party who controls the house seemingly has bigger fish to fry and more important issues to deal with other than dangerous electrical work being carried-out in people's homes by unskilled personnel.

Until such times as this mindset changes, the industry north of the border will continue to suffer. I know that SELECT have just about run out of patience with the Scottish Government regarding this issue and the gloves will be coming off if progress is not made and soon. Bring it on, I say.

 

[Deuce]

But a warrant is not required for a consumer unit changeover. This is a somewhat bizarre arrangement to say the least. More bizarre still, in a tenement building, a building warrant is required for the installation of a mains-operated smoke alarm, but not for the installation of a shower.

In England there are obviously also problems with enforcing the rules too... But it seems up in Scotland-land, it's actively back to front!!

Can't change a socket but can change a CU? The CU actually supplies and protects the circuit, it should be the main focus of regulation and control surely?

And I can't accept that people are not allowed to fit their own smoke alarm (which could save a life) but are allowed to fit their own electric shower (which could end a life).

I understand the reasons that government don't want to get overly involved in this can of worms. But how did it end up so back to front in the first place? At what point/how did someone get round to outlawing a bloke swapping out a faulty socket, without considering the folk that apparently feel a CU swap is a DIY job? And what is the logic in allowing someone to swap a high current wet environment shower but actively blocks a bloke that thinks "hmm... I'd feel happier if we had a smoke detector in the hallway leading to the kids bedrooms".

I'm not saying safety devices are best fitted by amateurs... But surely stop them working in the bathroom before worrying about anything else!?

 

[JK-Electrical]

In England there are obviously also problems with enforcing the rules too... But it seems up in Scotland-land, it's actively back to front!!

Can't change a socket but can change a CU? The CU actually supplies and protects the circuit, it should be the main focus of regulation and control surely?

And I can't accept that people are not allowed to fit their own smoke alarm (which could save a life) but are allowed to fit their own electric shower (which could end a life).

I understand the reasons that government don't want to get overly involved in this can of worms. But how did it end up so back to front in the first place? At what point/how did someone get round to outlawing a bloke swapping out a faulty socket, without considering the folk that apparently feel a CU swap is a DIY job? And what is the logic in allowing someone to swap a high current wet environment shower but actively blocks a bloke that thinks "hmm... I'd feel happier if we had a smoke detector in the hallway leading to the kids bedrooms".

I'm not saying safety devices are best fitted by amateurs... But surely stop them working in the bathroom before worrying about anything else!?

You're asking the same set of questions that a lot of puzzled Scottish electricians have been asking for years!

 

[Deuce]

You're asking the same set of questions that a lot of puzzled Scottish electricians have been asking for years!

Have you ever looked at the stats of Scottish vs English electrical fires/deaths/shocks etc? I wonder if there is a difference? If you ever wanted to play your part in affecting change, that would be a good place to start. Let's face it, your boys north of the border won't like to hear that you're statistically more likely to be fried than 'The English'.

If nothing else, it would be interesting to see the side by side stats that are the result of the differences in regulation.

 

[JK-Electrical]

Have you ever looked at the stats of Scottish vs English electrical fires/deaths/shocks etc? I wonder if there is a difference? If you ever wanted to play your part in affecting change, that would be a good place to start. Let's face it, your boys north of the border won't like to hear that you're statistically more likely to be fried than 'The English'.

If nothing else, it would be interesting to see the side by side stats that are the result of the differences in regulation.

According to Electrical Safety First, 54.4% of fires in England during 2015/16 were caused by electricity. No fatalities though. Meanwhile up here in Scotland, 75% of fires during 2016 were caused by electricity. This resulted in nine deaths.

So you are indeed much more likely to be barbecued by an electrical fire in Scotland than you are south of the border. This comes as no surprise at all to me given the alarming number of seriously-defective installations that I've come across. Indeed, my only surprise is that the number of deaths are relatively low. But it's still nine too many.