Immersion heater element replacement.

[wsoppitt]

Evening guys and girls, just a quick question. When asked to look at a faulty immersion heater , do you suggest a plumber ( likely to be faulty element) or do you take a look, test then advise that they need a plumber when it is a faulty element and charge a call out for testing or do you take on the plumbing aspect of the job and change the element yourself. The reason I ask is that I have been asked to look at an immersion heater that has stopped working, likely to need replacement element, dont want to suggest a plumber incase it's not, also wouldn't want to charge incase it is. What are your views.

 

[Marvo]

Third option might be test to prove element is faulty, drain cylinder, replace element, refill, retest and charge customer for the entire repair.

 

[Marvo]

You can't recommend the customer calls a plumber until you prove what and where the fault is. You could maybe charge the customer a half hour for the testing.

 

[Pete999]

Evening guys and girls, just a quick question. When asked to look at a faulty immersion heater , do you suggest a plumber ( likely to be faulty element) or do you take a look, test then advise that they need a plumber when it is a faulty element and charge a call out for testing or do you take on the plumbing aspect of the job and change the element yourself. The reason I ask is that I have been asked to look at an immersion heater that has stopped working, likely to need replacement element, dont want to suggest a plumber incase it's not, also wouldn't want to charge incase it is. What are your views.

Visit the client, test the system and form your opinions as to what are the next steps to be taken, if it's a duff element tell your customer what is required and in some cases who to contact, submit your invoice and wait for a response, it's simple really, not rocket science.

 

[LankyWill]

Just go and test the continuity on the element, confirm if its faulty and then advise the client to get a plumber to change it. You wont be covered by your insurance if you flood the place or cripple the tank. You also have to have a plumbing qual to work on pressurised cylinders, just charge an hourly fee.

 

[wsoppitt]

Pete, it's not rocket science, on that you are correct. Just wondered how you guys deal with the situation that's all. As I guess I feel guilty for charging somebody £xx to then inform them that they need to pay somebody else to correct the issue. That's just me I guess, but obviously I have to charge something.

 

[solarsavings]

Most plumbers would be able to test and replace an faulty immersion and have it as van stock. If you can't test and replace then do the right thing and tell them to get someone else.

 

[mattg4321]

Most plumbers would be able to test and replace an faulty immersion and have it as van stock. If you can't test and replace then do the right thing and tell them to get someone else.

Most of the plumbers I know have no electrical test equipment whatsoever. Not even a multi meter. However I agree that isn't always the case.

I find that it's often the stat thats faulty anyway.

 

[Squid]

You may find the 18" element has a unit built 3" above it making removal impossible, also check the age of the install as elements can "weld" themselves to the tank making removal risky.

 

[buzzlightyear]

That's just me I guess, but obviously I have to charge something.

you could ask for 5 magic beans jack and be on your way .

 

[Nigel]

I used to do these back in my social housing contract days for Hackney Council.

Stay well clear is my advice. When they go wrong they REALLY go wrong.

Not worth it mate in my opinion.

 

[TJ Anderson]

You should go and have a look. Will be very quick to determine so you won't need to charge a lot of time. Don't just assume it is the element that has failed though. As already suggested....Maybe it is the thermostat not closing. Maybe there is an issue with the supply upto the unit?

 

[Toneyz]

Depends as well if your insurance covers you for this.Plumbing.

 

[TJ Anderson]

I used to do these back in my social housing contract days for Hackney Council.

Stay well clear is my advice. When they go wrong they REALLY go wrong.

Not worth it mate in my opinion.

Agreed lol...If determined that the element has failed then let a plumber do it!!

 

[telectrix]

agree with all above posts. go out, find the fault, advise customer of the problem, if it's a failed element, then pass it it on to a plumber. charge for your time and expertise. you're not a charity. might be lucky and just need to press the reset --- on the stat. the big problem with replacing an element is the risk of damage caused, not covered by your insurance. i used to do them, but not any more. anyone want to buy a 4" ring spanner?

 

[Midwest]

Get a plumber (and other trades) as a contact. Then you can scratch his back and he can scratch yours (& not in the literal sense SWD). Then jobs like these, are nice & simple. That will help you build your business.

 

[Dobes_88]

As others have said, go there and prove what's wrong - if it is the element that's a job for a plumber!

 

[telectrix]

As others have said, go there and prove what's wrong - if it is the element that's a job for a plumber!

but OP will need to go back and make sure plumber has put all the right wires in all the right holes, with no twisted and taped joints into bell wire, then test and issue a MWC.

 

[telectrix]

bugger, fat fingers strike agian.

 

[pirate]

Don't like those immersion jobs, so I am biased...but being so, I would just tell 'em to get a plumber in. Wouldn't go out to look at it just to say the same thing. The older cylinders were thicker, I think, so could stand more spannering, but a buckled, leaking cylinder on a Saturday night is a nightmare.
Of course, were I a plumber, I would upsell to a different system! LOL!

 

[telectrix]

Don't like those immersion jobs, so I am biased...but being so, I would just tell 'em to get a plumber in. Wouldn't go out to look at it just to say the same thing. The older cylinders were thicker, I think, so could stand more spannering, but a buckled, leaking cylinder on a Saturday night is a nightmare.
Of course, were I a plumber, I would upsell to a different system! LOL!

and of course not mention to customer that the old tank you charged him £40 to dispose of environmentally friendly, got you £30 from the local scrap yard.

 

[GBDamo]

Done a few immersion’s the job is really easy.

If it comes out easy enough it’s your job.

If it’s a pain it’s wet pants.

Watch for the copper body of the tank flexing when undoing the old element as some are paper thin and will tear.

Just remember when reassembling to ensure all old gasket/PTFE tape residues are removedand a generous amount of WRAS approved jointing compound is used.

 

[telectrix]

i always found that gently tapping the spanner rapidly with a 4lb. lump hammer released it without the tank failing.

 

[GBDamo]

i always found that gently tapping the spanner rapidly with a 4lb. lump hammer released it without the tank failing.

If I had to go near a hammer I’d consider it a plumber job.

Or at the very least give the customer the option. I’ll continue but no way am I paying for a new tank.

Happily dispose of the old one though.

 

[sparksfly]

I charge to investigate issues like these, Use any tools it is chargeable otherwise not. Someone has to find out what the issue is first... test supply, cable, thermostat, element then worse case return with decent element & plumbing kit ...towels ....more towels......then speedos if it really goes BAD.

 

[Midwest]

Happily dispose of the old one though.

As long as you have a Upper Tier Waste Carrier Licence

 

[telectrix]

all depends on your definition of waste:
Waste (or wastes) are unwanted or unusable materials. Waste is any substance which is discarded after primary use, or is worthless, defective and of no use.

a copper tank is, by definition , not waste, as it will be recycled, and as such is not worthless, defective, and of no use. same applies to scrap cable.

 

[Midwest]

all depends on your definition of waste:
Waste (or wastes) are unwanted or unusable materials. Waste is any substance which is discarded after primary use, or is worthless, defective and of no use.

a copper tank is, by definition , not waste, as it will be recycled, and as such is not worthless, defective, and of no use. same applies to scrap cable.

You might wanna look out for unmarked council/environmental cars, waiting outside of scrappies for the unsuspecting sparky.

Until your old copper tank, has began its recovery process, its still waste. Your not part of the recovery process, by dropping it off at the scrappies.

Happily stand corrected.

 

[telectrix]

so, if i dent the tank with a lump hammer, it's recovery process has been initiated by me? same with cable, if i strip some insulation off, will that not be the start of recovery?

 

[mattg4321]

Every time I need to use a council service - which I try to keep to an absolute minimum, it's been a depressing painful experience. They appear to be hugely understaffed or maybe they are just lazy and/or incompetent?

If they've got the spare resources to let someone sit outside the scrappys waiting for some unsuspecting tradesman dropping off some copper that is no longer required by them, just so they can fine them or whatever.... I don't think I could be held responsible for my response to them!

 

[telectrix]

our local waste site is privately run. always enough staff on site, and helpful. 75% of whatever is tipped gets recycled. I am allowed to take most waste in my van averaging once a month (ANPR on site).

 

[GBDamo]

If council staff are lying in wait outside scrap yards then this needs publicising.

These staff, and the fines associated, have been empowered to reduce fly tipping.

Typical State mission creep:-

1, Enact law to deal with a highly publicised problem.
2, Word the law in such a woolly way that it applies to previously innocent parties.
3, Ignore the original targets of the legislation, too much like hard work.
4, Go after previously law abiding easy targets.

It's worth keeping an eye out for this as it's happening more and more.

Another example of the above is school children and holidays:-

Law intended to tackle degenerate and neglectful parents allowing their kids to truant and run feral.

Results in fines for good working families who take their kids on a term time holiday to try to save a few bob.

 

[Midwest]

Like or not they do. Another member related such a story, @SparkyChick, I think it was. Then there was that incident recently where environmental agency gave a builder a fpn for carrying sandwich wrappers in a waste bag in his van!!

I got myself a lower tier waste licence (free), which allows me to carry waste generated by myself, but soon as you start collecting scrap cable etc to take to the scrappy, its the upper tier (£229 +VAT). The definition, is it someone else's waste, you need a licence.

Not stopped me from being naughty boy, but something you might wish to be aware of.

 

[GBDamo]

Like or not they do. Another member related such a story, @SparkyChick, I think it was. Then there was that incident recently where environmental agency gave a builder a fpn for carrying sandwich wrappers in a waste bag in his van!!

I got myself a lower tier waste licence (free), which allows me to carry waste generated by myself, but soon as you start collecting scrap cable etc to take to the scrappy, its the upper tier (£229 +VAT). The definition, is it someone else's waste, you need a licence.

Not stopped me from being naughty boy, but something you might wish to be aware of.

Its disgraceful though, we know the types they should be going after but there's little or no chance of catching them or recovering fines.

Instead they encumber small traders with more layers of red tape to deal with.

The new 'crime' becomes not complying with the red tape and not actually fly tipping.

This kind of thing boils my pi55

 

[Midwest]

All the waste I generate on jobs, has to be disposed of by the customer, either skip bag or skip, or their own (environmentally ecologically safe ) disposal system. Its in the T&C's of my quotation.

Dunno what happens to all the old copper stuff

 

[sparksfly]

Isn't it my waste, which was not detailed in the quote for removal, given permission by customer that I can take any left over cable, metal items...now my property ?

 

[Midwest]

I could post various links on this subject, but it would be a tad boring. Have a peruse yourself. Basically, its keep your ---- to yourself

 

[Bellendian]

The real problem is that once you have your waste carriers license, you have now saddled yourself with another level of beurocracy...all waste transported needs to be accompanied by a duty of care/waste transfer note, detailing type and source of waste, tipping site etc.
Gets complicated for those who take small amounts of scrap home and accumulate in a bin for the annual Christmas weigh in! All records need to be kept for 5years blah blah....just a nightmare!
And all the while hedges and alleyways continue to be filled with the usual crap thats expensive to dispose of...not often you see a pile of copper dumped in a field!

 

[GBDamo]

The real problem is that once you have your waste carriers license, you have now saddled yourself with another level of beurocracy...all waste transported needs to be accompanied by a duty of care/waste transfer note, detailing type and source of waste, tipping site etc.
Gets complicated for those who take small amounts of scrap home and accumulate in a bin for the annual Christmas weigh in! All records need to be kept for 5years blah blah....just a nightmare!
And all the while hedges and alleyways continue to be filled with the usual crap thats expensive to dispose of...not often you see a pile of copper dumped in a field!

Exactly, original problem remains unsolved but more positions for council job squatters.

 

[Midwest]

The real problem is that once you have your waste carriers license, you have now saddled yourself with another level of beurocracy...all waste transported needs to be accompanied by a duty of care/waste transfer note, detailing type and source of waste, tipping site etc.

I'm guessing they might let me off, with my lower tier licence and waste bag of crisp packets etc, whereas those without will get £60 ticket

 

[mattg4321]

They can do one if they think I'll be getting a license. If asked anything I have in my van won't be waste. Cardboard will be reused at home for gardening, old light fittings will be plant pots etc. I'm also someone who likes to reuse crisp packets for storing things in How can anything possibly be waste if I'm going to use it! Theres a fine line between a bag of rubble and a bag of ballast. I might need that bag of rubble to build the levels up in my garden for a shed base.

 

[Midwest]

They can do one if they think I'll be getting a license. If asked anything I have in my van won't be waste. Cardboard will be reused at home for gardening, old light fittings will be plant pots etc. I'm also someone who likes to reuse crisp packets for storing things in How can anything possibly be waste if I'm going to use it! Theres a fine line between a bag of rubble and a bag of ballast. I might need that bag of rubble to build the levels up in my garden for a shed base.

Have a read of this link then, and tell me what you think. I think its nonsense, but it appears some bodies have a different view.

Decide if a material is waste or not: general guide (updated version of part 2 of original full document) - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/legal-definition-of-waste-guidance/decide-if-a-material-is-waste-or-not#identify-when-waste-rules-apply

 

[mattg4321]

In the unlikely event I get pulled over by one of these Nazis they better be ready for me to argue that I will be using anything in my van! They can't change the definition of a word to suit themselves.

 

[buzzlightyear]

I have only been away for one night , read this post is gone from at replacement element to shifting s88t ,next you will start saying what marigold gloves you put one ,I like the pink ones goes with my eyes .

 

[Midwest]

I have only been away for one night , read this post is gone from at replacement element to shifting s88t ,next you will start saying what marigold gloves you put one ,I like the pink ones goes with my eyes .

P off buz. Remember you are only on day release.

 

[Midwest]

They can do one if they think I'll be getting a license. If asked anything I have in my van won't be waste. Cardboard will be reused at home for gardening, old light fittings will be plant pots etc. I'm also someone who likes to reuse crisp packets for storing things in How can anything possibly be waste if I'm going to use it! Theres a fine line between a bag of rubble and a bag of ballast. I might need that bag of rubble to build the levels up in my garden for a shed base.

As an aside, what do you do with all your rubbish that you generate from your work (not aimed just at yourself)?

 

[SparkyChick]

I was advised by my NAPIT assessor to obtain the lower tier waste carrier licence. The reasons... councils in my area have been known to send staff out in unmarked cars and have them park up near wholesalers who do things like recycle old tubes.

When a tradie rocks up with old tubes, they observe them entering with them and leaving without them. They then issue them a ticket.

The advice was... go to a job with a full unopened reel of cable, leave with a partial reel... the partial reel is classed as waste from that job and they can have you and yes, your lunch rubbish also classes as waste.

In essence with the lower tier licence you can take away any rubbish you created... parts boxes, plastic wrapping, partial reels of cables, even your off cuts and cable strippings. But you take bits of their wall away for example if you've been chasing, or bits of plasterboard... and you could be had for transporting waste illegally.

It's bureaucracy gone mad. The most annoying thing for me is I live in Newport Council's area. I recently ditched my car and got a van... now I can't even take my own household waste to the tip because they don't allow vans, so I'm looking at paying around £40 (minimum charge) to get rid of my own rubbish. But take a drive around the lanes (I live near the coast road that runs between Newport and Cardiff - at the Cardiff end there is a travellers camp and they are buying up land along the coast road heading ever closer to my part of the world) and you'll find numerous fly tipping sites. Drove past a shed load of what looked like asbestos boarding the other day and this is happening all the time. The council clean it up and a few days later there's more and as has been pointed out... we get screwed over because of our lunch wrapper... it's bloody wrong.

 

[GBDamo]

As an aside, what do you do with all your rubbish that you generate from your work (not aimed just at yourself)?

For me all waste goes back to the office where we have suitable skips.

The exception being tubes which go to the bins at wholesalers.

Don't even bother with scrap.

 

[Marvo]

....all waste transported needs to be accompanied by a duty of care/waste transfer note, detailing type and source of waste, tipping site etc...........All records need to be kept for 5years blah blah

I'm not sure if you guys are joking sometimes....please tell me you are.

 

[SparkyChick]

I'm not sure if you guys are joking sometimes....please tell me you are.

No, we're being entirely serious unfortunately

Welcome to the UK The green and bureaucratic land