UK Is an SPD required for a loft conversion?

[ionionascu]

Hi. We live in an older house and we are doing a loft conversion. We do not have an SPD on the connection to the grid and the builder's electricians insist that we must have one, otherwise he can't sign the certificate, but he doesn't want to give me a reason. We have a few consumer units under the stairs, next to the meter and I do not think there is enough space for him to do any changes now. I want to have an SPD installed, but not right now as we plan to do some other changes in the house soon and I do not think it is worth paying for something now just to have it changed in a few months. Can someone please tell me whether there is a legal requirement to install an SPD when doing a loft conversion? (the house is a semi-detached with a looped connection and the electrician didn't even have to connect a new loop to the consumer unit as this had alreay been done a few years ago when we had some other electrical work done in the house). Thank you

 

[pc1966]

Strictly speaking there is no legal aspect to the wiring regulations. It is the The Electricity Safety, Quality and Continuity Regulations (2002) aka ESQCR, and the The Electricity at Work Regulations (1989) that are legally enforceable, and in turn they state that following BS7671 "Requirements for Electrical Installations" is usually the means to meet them.

But to all intents and purposes you need to follow BS7671.

Following Amendment 2:2022 to the 2018 version of BS7671 SPD are required to be fitted if any risk of injury/death or significant financial or data loss, for other cases the shall be fitted "unless the owner of the installation declares it is not required due to any loss or damage being tolerable and they accept the risk of damage to equipment and any consequential loss" (regulation 443.4.1). What any insurance company would do if such a declaration is made is another matter and one I don't know if being tested yet...

There is another option for SPD fitting without the change of your existing CU and that is to have an isolator switch with SPD fitted such as these:

Wylex REC2SPD 100a REC c/w Type 2 SPD Insulated

Buy online Wylex's REC2SPD insulated REC unit with Type 2 Surge Protection Device, with free 24 hour delivery from Edwardes

www.edwardes.co.uk

 

[ionionascu]

Thank you for your reply, @pc1966 . I have already suggested this option to him as we have multiple consumer units the there is a separate main switch of a similar size, that could be replaced with something of the same size, but with an SPD. He quoted me £250 for the work, which, with all respect, I think is too much. My preference would be for him to just focus on the loft and sign the certificate and then I can change this as part of other work that we plan to do in the near future.

 

[Ursanelec]

As your electrician has said, he can't sign off his work if you don't want the spd fitted as any alterations or additions to the electrical installation have to be covered by the current wiring regulations as PC1966 has pointed out to you and therefore loft extension won't be signed off as the building inspector will want the certificate for the electrics, unless you find a cowboy to all this for you...

 

[ionionascu]

@Ursanelec , the electrician hasn't given me a reason (apart from saying "because these are the rules"). Separate from this, he hasn't done any work on the consumer unit yet as the ring for the socket and the cable for the light had already been done a few years ago and all he had to do was to extend it.
I also asked another electrician about this and he said that even though an SPD is good, in this area, a risk assessmen would show it is not required.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

As your electrician has said, he can't sign off his work if you don't want the spd fitted as any alterations or additions to the electrical installation have to be covered by the current wiring regulations as PC1966 has pointed out to you and therefore loft extension won't be signed off as the building inspector will want the certificate for the electrics, unless you find a cowboy to all this for you...

Not sure I follow you here @Ursanelec . The reg @pc1966 quoted allows for the omission of an SPD should the owner request it, which @ionionascu has. Surely it would be a cowboy that insisted on installing one in this situation?

 

[loz2754]

I also asked another electrician about this and he said that even though an SPD is good, in this area, a risk assessmen would show it is not required.

The risk assessment option was removed in the most recent update to the wiring regulations. However, as prettymouth says, the person ordering the work may refuse to have an SPD fitted if they deem it unnecessary. Most electricians would want a written declaration by the person ordering the work to this effect, to cover themselves.

 

[Jukv96]

You state that you want to get a get an SPD installed.

However you don't want to install an SPD in such a way to it will just need to be ripped out in the near future, which is understandable as this would be poor value.

You then mention that you did manage to come up a soltution together with your electrcian which would provide both an SPD and longevity by installing a main upfront SPD. This is a good solution and meets what you are looking for based on what you have said.

It seems the only issue you have is the price of £250 - you think this is too much. It might be more than you are willing to pay but it is a reasonable price.

Why not just pay for the solution that meets your needs and get on with your life?

 

[pc1966]

It seems the only issue you have is the price of £250 - you think this is too much. It might be more than you are willing to pay but it is a reasonable price.

If it is £250 including all parts, etc, then it is very reasonable given the isolator/SPD is over £100.

 

[ionionascu]

If it is £250 including all parts, etc, then it is very reasonable given the isolator/SPD is over £100.

The price is excluding parts. Any way, I am waiting for another electrician to give me a quotation on this as well and I will just go for this cheaper option. Thank you for all your replies.

 

[Jukv96]

The price is excluding parts. Any way, I am waiting for another electrician to give me a quotation on this as well and I will just go for this cheaper option. Thank you for all your replies.

No probs, I've incorrectly assumed price was including parts, worth getting another quote for reference. Good luck

 

[mainline]

The price is excluding parts. Any way, I am waiting for another electrician to give me a quotation on this as well and I will just go for this cheaper option. Thank you for all your replies.

If you really don't want an SPD fitted and wish to accept the risks involved, then tell the electrician.
If he refuses to sign it off for that reason, then tell him you will take it up with his certification body.

 

[Markyd]

If you believe that all the equipment that could be damaged without an SPD is worth less than £250 or you just dont want one....sign a waiver declaring this and the sparks is covered

 

[oscar21]

If you believe that all the equipment that could be damaged without an SPD is worth less than £250 or you just dont want one....sign a waiver declaring this and the sparks is covered

Say I have an SPD fitted at a cost of £250, then there is a thunderstorm nearby and then my £500 2 year and 1 day TV goes faulty, whats the procedure for getting a working TV again?

 

[DPG]

Say I have an SPD fitted at a cost of £250, then there is a thunderstorm nearby and then my £500 2 year and 1 day TV goes faulty, whats the procedure for getting a working TV again?

Go to Currys. Pick a TV you like. Pay for it. Dispose of the old one responsibly.

Happy to help.

 

[mainline]

Say I have an SPD fitted at a cost of £250, then there is a thunderstorm nearby and then my £500 2 year and 1 day TV goes faulty, whats the procedure for getting a working TV again?

I would start by checking the tvs power supply

 

[oscar21]

Go to Currys. Pick a TV you like. Pay for it. Dispose of the old one responsibly.

Happy to help.

So exactly the same as if you didn't have an SPD then.

 

[DPG]

So exactly the same as if you didn't have an SPD then.

You're surely not expecting the SPD manufacturer to replace your TV whenever it goes faulty? Am I missing something?

 

[Risteard]

If you really don't want an SPD fitted and wish to accept the risks involved, then tell the electrician.
If he refuses to sign it off for that reason, then tell him you will take it up with his certification body.

No regulatory body is going to force an Electrician to not fit surge protection.

 

[MJPD29]

Out of interest, has anyone ever had to replaced an spd because of a surge or seen one that’s done its job?

 

[nicebutdim]

Out of interest, has anyone ever had to replaced an spd because of a surge or seen one that’s done its job?

I've seen one with red flags on 2 of 3 phases. Who knows how long it had been like that? Mad that I've also seen them in new industrial installations with no link to BMS.

 

[mainline]

Out of interest, has anyone ever had to replaced an spd because of a surge or seen one that’s done its job?

Seen one that seems to have done its job on a housing estate that had a mains surge.
Quite a few houses were fitted with the same make combi boilers.
All failed except the one that had an spd board recently fitted.

 

[mainline]

No regulatory body is going to force an Electrician to not fit surge protection.

It’s more to do with trying to force the electrician to sign off his work.
The installer has no right for not doing so.

 

[oscar21]

You're surely not expecting the SPD manufacturer to replace your TV whenever it goes faulty? Am I missing something?

I'm playing devils advocate, what I was trying to say is, if you don't have a surge protector then your TV will break, possibly because of a surge (unlikely but possible) but probably because its made of crap. If you do have an SPD fitted your TV will still break because its made of crap, no surge protector will stop that, but you are down £250.

Surely the most sensible thing to do with £250 is buy some sort of insurance policy that protects electronic stuff against damage.

And how come this wasn't a problem a few years ago, metal oxide varistors have been around since adam was a lad, there was never any need to fit them 10 years ago to anything. Are TV sales going to fall off a cliff now we are getting surge protectors, if that was true the tory mates that own big electronic business would never allow them.

 

[DPG]

I'm playing devils advocate, what I was trying to say is, if you don't have a surge protector then your TV will break, possibly because of a surge (unlikely but possible) but probably because its made of crap. If you do have an SPD fitted your TV will still break because its made of crap, no surge protector will stop that, but you are down £250.

Surely the most sensible thing to do with £250 is buy some sort of insurance policy that protects electronic stuff against damage.

And how come this wasn't a problem a few years ago, metal oxide varistors have been around since adam was a lad, there was never any need to fit them 10 years ago to anything. Are TV sales going to fall off a cliff now we are getting surge protectors, if that was true the tory mates that own big electronic business would never allow them.

Too many conspiracy theories in that for me.

You could say the same thing about many things. As an example, RCDs were around for years before they were enforced in the regs.

I'm from an electronics background, and I think I might have mentioned before a story about a company that tried to cut costs by removing surge protection components from a product. Guess what happened - product return rates went up, especially in regions more prone to storms. Nothing to do with some imagined 'built in expiry time' by the manufacturer.

It's not that there was 'never a need to fit them'. And it's nothing to do with the Tories!

 

[oscar21]

Too many conspiracy theories in that for me.

You could say the same thing about many things. As an example, RCDs were around for years before they were enforced in the regs.

I'm from an electronics background, and I think I might have mentioned before a story about a company that tried to cut costs by removing surge protection components from a product. Guess what happened - product return rates went up, especially in regions more prone to storms. Nothing to do with some imagined 'built in expiry time' by the manufacturer.

It's not that there was 'never a need to fit them'. And it's nothing to do with the Tories!

Doesn't most of the electronic stuff have surge protection built in anyway, a lot of the stuff Big Clive takes to bits has those blue MOV inside already. and of course stuff has a built in expiry time, even the original humble light bulb

 

[DPG]

Doesn't most of the electronic stuff have surge protection built in anyway, a lot of the stuff Big Clive takes to bits has those blue MOV inside already. and of course stuff has a built in expiry time, even the original humble light bulb

Some stuff does, some stuff doesn't. Some decent quality items usually have good surge protection, but a lot of things have the bare minimum to keep costs down. But I would always recommend a decent SPD be fitted at the consumer unit to be on the safe side. Especially with the amount of electronic equipment people have these days.

 

[nicebutdim]

I'm playing devils advocate, what I was trying to say is, if you don't have a surge protector then your TV will break, possibly because of a surge (unlikely but possible) but probably because its made of crap. If you do have an SPD fitted your TV will still break because its made of crap, no surge protector will stop that, but you are down £250.

Surely the most sensible thing to do with £250 is buy some sort of insurance policy that protects electronic stuff against damage.

And how come this wasn't a problem a few years ago, metal oxide varistors have been around since adam was a lad, there was never any need to fit them 10 years ago to anything. Are TV sales going to fall off a cliff now we are getting surge protectors, if that was true the tory mates that own big electronic business would never allow them.

Better playing devil's advocate in a letter to the IET as it is they who write the regulations you're generally obliged to work to.

I see the point you're making and understand it, but you lost me with the pointless politicisation of your argument. Unless you know how the people responsible for writing BS7671 vote, then this seems like agitation for agitation's sake and would be better left at the door.

 

[pc1966]

Doesn't most of the electronic stuff have surge protection built in anyway, a lot of the stuff Big Clive takes to bits has those blue MOV inside already. and of course stuff has a built in expiry time, even the original humble light bulb

All reputable electronics will meet the relevant EU (now UK) standard for conducted immunity which includes such mains borne surges. All of that came in around 1996 with the EMC directive as before that time it was down the the manufacturer's ethics if they would meet any given immunity requirement or not (emissions were regulated way back due to impact on radio/TV).

Not that the EMC directive seems to matter much as it is largely self-policed so you can see where that is going...

But...the levels involved to meet that are quite low, off hand I don't know what is current but it used to be in the 1-2kV sort of region. How you achieve it is not specified, it might be MOV added to dissipate/clamp the surge, over-rated parts to survive it, or LC filters to reflect the high frequency part, etc, etc.

The purpose of the mains incoming SPD is to deal with the "big stuff" where you get tens of kA peak and energies of dozens of Joules, those would fry the protection built in to most end-use products. Hence the Type 1/2 at the CU (depending if direct/induced lightning rating) and Type 3 at the product (if needed).

Having SPD fitted does not guarantee that stuff will survive, nor does it deal with crap eBay-level imports, but it improves your chances!

 

[nicebutdim]

Ought to be a disclaimer posted for any newish member posting a thread, to warn them of the likely outcome of their actions

 

[pc1966]

I've seen one with red flags on 2 of 3 phases. Who knows how long it had been like that? Mad that I've also seen them in new industrial installations with no link to BMS.

Indeed, most of the better quality SPD have the switch for an indicator but rarely used. We did, using the wonders of diodes and the diode-action of the LED indicators, to have 3 'fail' lights and one 'good' light that was logical AND of the status:

The SPD on the left is the 'DB' one, there are others at the incoming points for mains and for backup generator.

 

[Mike Johnson]

The three phase surge protector I had on my board in France had separate plug in modules for each phase after replacing them for I think the third time at a not inconsiderable cost, I removed them and just remembered to switch everything off when a storm approached, once had the living room lit up by a lightning ball travelling through the house most interesting.

 

[pc1966]

The three phase surge protector I had on my board in France had separate plug in modules for each phase after replacing them for I think the third time at a not inconsiderable cost, I removed them and just remembered to switch everything off when a storm approached, once had the living room lit up by a lightning ball travelling through the house most interesting.

Clearly not rated for the job!

Fit Type 1 SPD if you have a rural site / overhead line / high lightning incidence situation.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Probably right, when I installed the SPD about ten years ago, I knew nothing about them, not much has changed since then.

 

[nicebutdim]

Indeed, most of the better quality SPD have the switch for an indicator but rarely used. We did, using the wonders of diodes and the diode-action of the LED indicators, to have 3 'fail' lights and one 'good' light that was logical AND of the status:
View attachment 109777

The SPD on the left is the 'DB' one, there are others at the incoming points for mains and for backup generator.

I'm guessing someone pokes their head in that room on a regular basis. Imagine high value processes being protected by an SPD which remains locked away in a switch room where no one might check its status for weeks on end. Power won't ever be interrupted, but SPD could be taken out today and equipment by a later surge and no one would understand what went wrong. Everything in buildings monitored to within an inch of its existence, yet this fairly critical piece of kit gets overlooked. The odds of two surges are probably remote, but linking surge protection back to BMS would be a relatively trivial cost.

 

[mainline]

Clearly not rated for the job!

Fit Type 1 SPD if you have a rural site / overhead line / high lightning incidence situation.

If you are in a rural environment it’s most likely to be TT earthing so more than likely neither would a type 1 spd.

 

[mainline]

I'm playing devils advocate, what I was trying to say is, if you don't have a surge protector then your TV will break, possibly because of a surge (unlikely but possible) but probably because its made of crap. If you do have an SPD fitted your TV will still break because its made of crap, no surge protector will stop that, but you are down £250.

Surely the most sensible thing to do with £250 is buy some sort of insurance policy that protects electronic stuff against damage.

And how come this wasn't a problem a few years ago, metal oxide varistors have been around since adam was a lad, there was never any need to fit them 10 years ago to anything. Are TV sales going to fall off a cliff now we are getting surge protectors, if that was true the tory mates that own big electronic business would never allow them.

A high percentage of fails in modern stuff is usually down to the use of smps power supplies.
A decent spd can only help to iron out the incoming supply and increase the chances of its survival.

 

[mainline]

Doesn't most of the electronic stuff have surge protection built in anyway, a lot of the stuff Big Clive takes to bits has those blue MOV inside already. and of course stuff has a built in expiry time, even the original humble light bulb

Bird rental video recorders had a time fuse in

If you don’t want to fit spd,s then don’t fit them.

 

[davesparks]

And how come this wasn't a problem a few years ago, metal oxide varistors have been around since adam was a lad, there was never any need to fit them 10 years ago to anything.

There was a real-world need for them 10 years ago, and even longer ago than that. The need for them has been increasing as the amount of sensitive electronics in the world increases.

 

[MJPD29]

I've seen one with red flags on 2 of 3 phases. Who knows how long it had been like that? Mad that I've also seen them in new industrial installations with no link to BMS.

I’ve never seen one activated. After some sites I’ve seen recently that have suffered from lighting strikes I’m starting to wonder how useful some of them are.

 

[davesparks]

I’ve never seen one activated. After some sites I’ve seen recently that have suffered from lighting strikes I’m starting to wonder how useful some of them are.

Very useful if, like most things, the correct devices are installed properly. They are far less useful if not.

SPDs dont protect against direct lightning strikes, but should be installed as part of a properly designed lightning protection system.

 

[nicebutdim]

I’ve never seen one activated. After some sites I’ve seen recently that have suffered from lighting strikes I’m starting to wonder how useful some of them are.

Only happened to notice in passing and figured I should bring it to the attention of someone from the company. For the life of me I can't remember where this was as it wasn't somewhere I work regularly. I do remember thinking it had probably been like that for some time and remember it mostly as only two phases had taken the hit.

 

[oscar21]

There was a real-world need for them 10 years ago, and even longer ago than that. The need for them has been increasing as the amount of sensitive electronics in the world increases.

But we did have them though, I remember sockets even in the 90's that had big removeable cartridges that needed changing when they showed red. I occasionally saw them where things like cash registers were plugged in in shops.

I always thought they were a snake oil product sold by the shop fitting firm frightening the owners into thinking they would loose all their money if the till broke, despite it being full of notes.

 

[Mike Johnson]

The only thing the lightning strike took out was the Orange Router, replaced by Orange free, so far cheaper than replacing the SPD cartridges.

 

[Risteard]

Doesn't most of the electronic stuff have surge protection built in anyway, a lot of the stuff Big Clive takes to bits has those blue MOV inside already. and of course stuff has a built in expiry time, even the original humble light bulb

Surge protection needs to be cascaded to be effective. Simply having a Type 3 surge arrester in the equipment may not provide any real-world protection as the magnitude of the surge may simply be too great for it.

 

[Markyd]

Say I have an SPD fitted at a cost of £250, then there is a thunderstorm nearby and then my £500 2 year and 1 day TV goes faulty, whats the procedure for getting a working TV again?

Buy One

 

[Mike Johnson]

Buy One

And while your at it a new SPD as well.

 

[pc1966]

I'm guessing someone pokes their head in that room on a regular basis.

In our case yes, one of the reasons I like the Hager boards with the transparent door!

Imagine high value processes being protected by an SPD which remains locked away in a switch room where no one might check its status for weeks on end. Power won't ever be interrupted, but SPD could be taken out today and equipment by a later surge and no one would understand what went wrong. Everything in buildings monitored to within an inch of its existence, yet this fairly critical piece of kit gets overlooked. The odds of two surges are probably remote, but linking surge protection back to BMS would be a relatively trivial cost.

It should be a more common thing to do.

Even in our case we do have a monitoring system based on Nagios software that emails us on issues, even sending a SMS if it gets really worries about some things, but so far I have not got round to putting in a safely isolated route from the DB's mains operated LED to the computer network to allow automation.

 

[mainline]

Buy One

Tell them it went wrong 3 days before it did

 

[Mike Johnson]

Tell them it went wrong 3 days before it did

Tut Tut, that's dishonest.