Is this twisted cloth flex double or single insulated?

[Selfmade]

Hi Folks

Just bought some of this Bronze Twisted Fabric Flex - Braided Cloth Cable Lighting Wire - https://www.industville.co.uk/products/light-brown-twisted-fabric-flex-braided-cloth-cable-lighting-wire?variant=1184660808&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI14zguOzl3wIVRbDtCh2C9QQCEAkYASABEgJA0fD_BwE for a job. The description says double insulated but the BS EN number quoted is for single. I've received it and there is one layer of plastic (presumably PVC) insulation and the woven sheath. Does the sheath provide the double insulation as the seller seems to imply? I'm a little bit dubious.

 

[cprfenom]

Its double insulated

 

[Taylortwocities]

Its double insulated

Nah, its insulated and sheathed.

In fact, none of the cables used in normal domestic cabling are double insulated. That includes twin&earth and (shock horror) meter tails. They are insulated and sheathed.

 

[DPG]

Agree with Taylor.

 

[Pete999]

Hi Folks

Just bought some of this Bronze Twisted Fabric Flex - Braided Cloth Cable Lighting Wire - https://www.industville.co.uk/products/light-brown-twisted-fabric-flex-braided-cloth-cable-lighting-wire?variant=1184660808&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI14zguOzl3wIVRbDtCh2C9QQCEAkYASABEgJA0fD_BwE for a job. The description says double insulated but the BS EN number quoted is for single. I've received it and there is one layer of plastic (presumably PVC) insulation and the woven sheath. Does the sheath provide the double insulation as the seller seems to imply? I'm a little bit dubious.

No Most cable flex is single insulated the extra covering is a sheath nothing else, except of course large cables used underground where you ill have several layers of insulation and armoring, in the domestic field no cable is double insulated, especially the one you have been sold

 

[Pete999]

Its double insulated

No it's not, hence the disagree

 

[cprfenom]

To be honest I just read the webpages info without reading the original post.

Lesson learnt there! My first disagree.

On a serious note it does prove the point that doing your homework pays off.

 

[Squid]

If there is no earth cable then surely it is "double insulated" maybe not as the outer sheaf is a material and not a plastic. A two core flex I believe is double insulated.

 

[Pete999]

If there is no earth cable then surely it is "double insulated" maybe not as the outer sheaf is a material and not a plastic. A two core flex I believe is double insulated.

The Sheath is there as a bit of mechanical protection, but it's not double insulated, regardless if there is an earth core or not.

 

[westward10]

The technical info does state two layers of pvc however, to say it is double insulated is somewhat tenuous.

 

[telectrix]

basically the outer sheath/covering is not rated as insulation. it has not been tested to the relevant standard to prove it's insulation value, so to speak.

 

[Squid]

So guys tell me then or list up double insulated cables, also if companies advertise T+E as double insulated then are they breaking the trades description act?

 

[Pete999]

So guys tell me then or list up double insulated cables, also if companies advertise T+E as double insulated then are they breaking the trades description act?

Which companies list their cable as double insulated?

 

[telectrix]

Which companies list their cable as double insulated?

could it be the Double insulated cable co.ltd.? DICC for short.

 

[Silly Sausage]

So guys tell me then or list up double insulated cables, also if companies advertise T+E as double insulated then are they breaking the trades description act?

I was looking at a cable spec t'other day, the PVC insulation, around the cores, had one BS EN number, and the PVC sheath had another.
So there must be a difference?!
Can't remember which sodding cable it was, so can't put up a link.

 

[Selfmade]

Thanks all for the interesting and helpful replies. So I guess the question I should be asking is 'is the sheath capable of providing fault protection?', or, to put that another way, 'if the insulation failed, would the sheath provide protection against shock/electrocution?'.

 

[DPG]

What exactly are you using the flex for??

 

[Selfmade]

What exactly are you using the flex for??

For a chandelier, between the ceiling rose part and the lampholder part, running alongside the chain that supports the weight. Chain is being lengthened and existing flex is too short.

 

[westward10]

The technical info states two layers of pvc so the braid may well be just aesthetic.

 

[Selfmade]

The technical info states two layers of pvc so the braid may well be just aesthetic.

This is what I assumed before I bought it. But looking at it, I can't distinguish two layers of PVC. It looks like just one. I may try stripping it with my CK auto stripper as that usually strips double insulated (insulated and sheathed?) singles in two separate layers.

 

[DPG]

I'd strip and it and have a look yes. As above, the braid will be for looks only and it's very unlikely to offer anything other than minimal insulation properties.

 

[Selfmade]

I'd strip and it and have a look yes. As above, the braid will be for looks only and it's very unlikely to offer anything other than minimal insulation properties.

Will give that a go.

 

[Selfmade]

Stripped in one go but looking at it again I see that the line & neutral actually have very thin coloured layers over thicker white layers, while earth is g/y right through. So I guess it is insulated and double sheathed!

 

[telectrix]

no.it's probably when they made the cable, they ran out of coloured dye so the inner bit is white.

 

[westward10]

If you are going to use this especially for commercial purposes I would like to see BASEC approval.

 

[Selfmade]

If you are going to use this especially for commercial purposes I would like to see BASEC approval.

Good point, I might contact them about this. Of course there is nothing stamped or written on the outer cloth sheath.

 

[Selfmade]

Not looking good. I spoke to someone at Industville yesterday who said the flex is certified as double insulated. So I asked for that in writing by email. What came was an email stating that "All of our flex is BS EN 50525 certified", with as attached copy of 50525-2-31-2011, which is for single insulated non-sheathed cables. Would others agree that cables to this standard are only suitable for use in conduits, trunking etc, or for earthing and bonding? The email also included a number of other documents, some illegible or barely legible as they were very poorly scanned. There were some that appear completely irrelevant, e.g. being standards for switches etc., and some in foreign languages (fair enough, I might try to get some translated, but don't hold out much hope they will provide any reassurance).

 

[westward10]

It is difficult to say I have just looked online for other suppliers and they all seem to be of the same construction, two layers of pvc below the material braid.
Old Gold Twisted Fabric Braided Cable - https://www.enamelshades.co.uk/collections/fabric-cable/products/old-gold-twisted-fabric-braided-cable

 

[Selfmade]

It is difficult to say I have just looked online for other suppliers and they all seem to be of the same construction, two layers of pvc below the material braid.
Old Gold Twisted Fabric Braided Cable - https://www.enamelshades.co.uk/collections/fabric-cable/products/old-gold-twisted-fabric-braided-cable

Thanks for the link Westward! I will look at that and some others and choose one. It will be interesting to get a different one and compare to the questionable one I've already bought.

 

[westward10]

I picked that one as it states it is produced in the UK.

 

[Selfmade]

Does anyone know which BS (EN) standard is applicable to such a cable (for use as part of a chandelier with chain to bear weight)? I've been looking at the titles for the BS EN 50525 series and think this one may be right: BS EN 50525-2-82:2011 Electric cables. Low voltage energy cables of rated voltages up to and including 450/750 V (U0/U). Cables for general applications. Cables with crosslinked elastomeric insulation for decorative chains. Any thoughts?

 

[Selfmade]

Duplicate post, sorry!

 

[Selfmade]

Considering this Twisted Cable | Braided Lighting Cable & Flex | Factorylux - https://www.urbancottageindustries.com/twisted-fabric-lighting-cable-3-core# one, as it states it has 'double PVC' insulation. BS EN 60598 'when used for light fittings'. Or this fabric cables - lighting cable - braided cable - twisted cable - Vintage Lights Ltd - https://www.vintagelights.co.uk/26-fabric-cable one with 'an internal double insulated flex' and is to BS EN 50525-2-11 which does refer to 'sheathed cables' here BS EN 50525-2-11:2011 - Electric cables. Low voltage energy cables of rated voltages up to and including 450/750V (U0/U). Cables for general applications. Flexible cables with thermoplastic PVC insulation - https://shop.bsigroup.com/ProductDetail/?pid=000000000030188772, though it's not clear to me if it is only applicable to sheathed cables. Any thoughts on either of these?

 

[John-]

Silly question. Why does it need to be 'double insulated' for your application?

 

[Selfmade]

Silly question. Why does it need to be 'double insulated' for your application?

It needs to be sheathed as it will not be in a conduit or similar. I take that to mean the sheath has to be able to act as insulation if the inner insulation fails. I have bought some of the cable Vintage Lights as linked above. Each core has two distinct layers of PVC (or similar, I haven't chemically analyzed it!) insulation within the braided outer sheath. It's product code is TM05 that lots of others sell, whereas Industville's is FL-T-BZ which no other supplier seems to think is a cable. Draw your own conclusions.

 

[DPG]

And there's your answer - it needs to be insulated and sheathed.

 

[Selfmade]

And there's your answer - it needs to be insulated and sheathed.

Exactly, and Industville's is neither - the BS EN they keep quoting is for single insulated, unsheathed cable.