UK Legal Details - Sockets - Where is the requirement for separate socket earths to be linked?

[wilmer000]

I have come across a double socket where the earth terminations aren't linked together - Is this illegal (and what regulation do i look at?) or is it allowed, and I just put the loop-earth in one termination and join the unearthed socket with a length of Earth conductor?

 

[telectrix]

do you mean that there's no manufacturers link between the 2 earth terminals? have you metered across them?

 

[snowhead]

Are these new sockets or already connected?
Are they in a house or Office or commercial setting?

 

[netblindpaul]

There is no law in the UK that specifies what is described.

 

[telectrix]

There is no law in the UK that specifies what is described.

where you bin hiding? long time no see. ?

 

[brianmoooore]

This will be a relatively new 2G socket with two earth terminals, and the OP has discovered it was wired 'old style' with both cpcs into one terminal.
No problem at all.

 

[Pete999]

I have come across a double socket where the earth terminations aren't linked together - Is this illegal (and what regulation do i look at?) or is it allowed, and I just put the loop-earth in one termination and join the unearthed socket with a length of Earth conductor?

 

[Pete999]

I have come across a double socket where the earth terminations aren't linked together - Is this illegal (and what regulation do i look at?) or is it allowed, and I just put the loop-earth in one termination and join the unearthed socket with a length of Earth conductor?

There should be an internal ling in the SO . See Earthing requirements for the installation of equipment having high protective conductor current "see 7.5 OSG Page 86 explains the whole thing in detail, Regulation 543.7.1.201 and 202 refers

 

[DPG]

Big Clive has a YouTube video where a cheapy double socket with USB outlets has no link inbetween the two earth terminals. Scary.

 

[FatAlan]

Must admit that I've quite often wondered why there are two earth terminals on double sockets which are quite clearly linked. Suppose its quite handy to have the extra one if you are earthing the back box but if you have a RFC with a large number of double sockets, if the CPC's are in the separate terminals you are going to get a slightly higher r2 value plus extra connections with more room for error.

 

[Pete999]

Must admit that I've quite often wondered why there are two earth terminals on double sockets which are quite clearly linked. Suppose its quite handy to have the extra one if you are earthing the back box but if you have a RFC with a large number of double sockets, if the CPC's are in the separate terminals you are going to get a slightly higher r2 value plus extra connections with more room for error.

See Post 8?

 

[i=p/u]

Trainee question, get to the right aisle.. pg 86 osg might explain something

 

[telectrix]

Must admit that I've quite often wondered why there are two earth terminals on double sockets which are quite clearly linked. Suppose its quite handy to have the extra one if you are earthing the back box but if you have a RFC with a large number of double sockets, if the CPC's are in the separate terminals you are going to get a slightly higher r2 value plus extra connections with more room for error.

the reason for 2 terminals is for hi integrity earthing, used a lot with IT equipment with high leakage currents. as he said above , osg pages 86 and 87 explain.

 

[snowhead]

Big Clive has a YouTube video where a cheapy double socket with USB outlets has no link inbetween the two earth terminals. Scary.

Jump to around 8 mins

 

[DPG]

Ah that's the one, ta.

 

[wilmer000]

There is no law in the UK that specifies what is described.

So it is legal to have two separate unlinked earth terminals in a socket? BS 1363-2 doesn't seem to specify there must be a single termination, but it doesn't seem right to me as you could end up wiring one side of the loop into each termination, and split the earth loop by accident. either that or you end up with an unearthed socket. (or have to fit a link between the two. ) but is it legal? that's the question!

 

[DPG]

So it is legal to have two separate unlinked earth terminals in a socket? BS 1363-2 doesn't seem to specify there must be a single termination, but it doesn't seem right to me as you could end up wiring one side of the loop into each termination, and split the earth loop by accident. either that or you end up with an unearthed socket. (or have to fit a link between the two. ) but is it legal? that's the question!

No, I think you have misunderstood.

Can you post a photo of the rear of your socket.

 

[Risteard]

Sometimes there can be separate clean Earth and protective Earth terminals.

 

[i=p/u]

They are linked together

 

[westward10]

Was doing a periodic last week in an office, area had been rewired five years ago to a good standard. Continuity of the cpcs was way too high on two of the ring finals and I knew exactly what was causing it has have had it before, cpcs split across two terminals. Reconnected into the same terminal and problem gone, can't remember the brand but wasn't MK or Hager.

 

[wilmer000]

do you mean that there's no manufacturers link between the 2 earth terminals? have you metered across them?

It's two entirely separate terminations, one hole on the back for each earth wire.

 

[i=p/u]

Haven't done floor boxes in a while

 

[wilmer000]

Trainee question, get to the right aisle.. pg 86 osg might explain something

DIY, sorry. wanted to ask the pros if it was allowed, and if so, how to deal with the installation

 

[Strima]

Who manufactured it?

Looks like a Poundland special.

 

[i=p/u]

Well just get the bits do a few flips with wire and join her up.
What ya asking now , what you want to deal with

In normal circumstances they are joined together, and if equipment with leakage current I.e computersx3+ is plugged in , then wire in and out of the terminals

 

[wilmer000]

No, I think you have misunderstood.

Can you post a photo of the rear of your socket.

Yes of course.

 

[i=p/u]

Size of protective conductor is another question

 

[wilmer000]

Size of protective conductor is another question

 

[Strima]

Any manufacturers information?

 

[i=p/u]

says minimum 1.5mm for sockets?

 

[wilmer000]

Any manufacturers information?

Yes but I blanked it out. Don't want to draw attention to a supplier if there's nothing wrong with it. This is the internet and everyone gets in trouble for everything these days... All the ratings info i left on the photo. My feeling is that it's a legal arrangement per BS 1363 and the plug and socket regs, but might be a tricky install for a DIYer who doesn't realise they have to link the two sides? But then my knowledge is limited so any help greatly appreciated...

 

[Strima]

Yes but I blanked it out. Don't want to draw attention to a supplier if there's nothing wrong with it. This is the internet and everyone gets in trouble for everything these days... All the ratings info i left on the photo. My feeling is that it's a legal arrangement per BS 1363 and the plug and socket regs, but might be a tricky install for a DIYer who doesn't realise they have to link the two sides? But then my knowledge is limited so any help greatly appreciated...

Ideally we would need to know as this can be potentially dangerous. Even one of these installed on a ring final circuit will break the continuity of the CPC. This would be identified when dead testing is carried out but how many DIYers do this?

Product identification is not a problem as you're asking a genuine question.

 

[DPG]

I see it's a wifi socket. I suspect this is a cheap Chinese special - am I correct?

You need to give us some more info.

 

[Pete999]

DIY, sorry. wanted to ask the pros if it was allowed, and if so, how to deal with the installation

Have you bothered to read the OSG details I provided?

 

[snowhead]

I'll just leave this here from Azamon £27.43

ENERJ Smart WiFi Double Wall Socket with USB Charger Plug UK, 13A Electric Power 2 Gang White Twin Wall Sockets with Push Button & Timer Compatible with Alexa and Google Home : Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools

Shop ENERJ Smart WiFi Double Wall Socket with USB Charger Plug UK, 13A Electric Power 2 Gang White Twin Wall Sockets with Push Button & Timer Compatible with Alexa and Google Home. Free delivery on eligible orders of £20 or more.

www.amazon.co.uk

And heres a cheaper version

Amazon.co.uk

Yet another name, same socket but even cheaper

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Woox-Smart-Wall-Socket-Ports/dp/B07N7WJL5M/ref=sr_1_15?dchild=1&keywords=smart+wifi+double+wall+socket&qid=1615837481&sr=8-15

 

[Timbo]

"Supports maximum power of 13A"

 

[snowhead]

Not just Azamon everyone sells them even CFE

13A 2 Gang Smart Wi-Fi Socket with USB

Control of appliances remotely

www.cef.co.uk

 

[DPG]

Well found Snowhead!!

So as I thought, a cheap item which probably barely meets any safety requirements. And the manufacturer themselves probably don't even know whether the 2 earth terminals should be continuous!!

 

[Steve T]

Not just Azamon everyone sells them even CFE

13A 2 Gang Smart Wi-Fi Socket with USB

Control of appliances remotely

www.cef.co.uk

Is ENER-J not a decent brand though? I've used one of their wireless switches (bought from denmans) which seemed to be good quality.

 

[Strima]

I've ordered the cheaper one, lets have a look tomorrow.

Edit: I also forgot to say on my earlier post, if one of these was installed at the start of a radial circuit the other accessories would be left with no earth.

Also a metal backbox would not be earthed as it appears to have no earth contact with the fixing screws.

 

[DPG]

I've ordered the cheaper one, lets have a look tomorrow.

Edit: I also forgot to say on my earlier post, if one of these was installed at the start of a radial circuit the other accessories would be left with no earth.

Also a metal backbox would not be earthed as it appears to have no earth contact with the fixing screws.

Be interesting to see what you find.

 

[wilmer000]

Have you bothered to read the OSG details I provided?

Hi Pete, I'm not an installer so don't have easy access to the OSG, but I have certainly tried and did manage to dig up an "Electricians guide to the IET" (17th ed though), and I really appreciate the effort everyone is making to help. As I understand it, this type of socket is aimed at use where the equipment used on the ring can collectively (if not individually where they would need wiring in) generate a high protective current (mainly office buildings) and the sockets being installed must have 2 earth terminals. These terminals each link to one end of the ring, and to each other and a duplicate earth or metal conduit (to ensure the earth is protected in case of a component/socket failure). As such I guess the verdict is that the sockets are likely to pass BS 1363/Plug and socket regs, and be legal to sell, but the installer will be responsible to ensure safe fitting. That means to bridge the two terminals with a suitable conductor and run duplicate conductor/metal trunking in in the office setting. In the domestic setting an installer would just bridge the two earth terminals (unless the householder was going to have a host of PCs installed and needed duplicate earth wire/trunking) - In the DIY arena the bridging of terminals is unlikely to happen all the time, and would depend on the user's level of ability and desire to read the instructions, but remains legal-but-iffy to use. Does that sound about right?

 

[Lucien Nunes]

In general, all PE terminals are interconnected on any device, including electrical accessories, except for deliberately separate clean earth connections. Socket outlets with two PE terminals for the purpose of high integrity earthing always have them internally linked, so that all points remain earthed if any one terminal loses continuity (which would defeat any wire link installed between them.)

What do the manufacturers' instructions say about this product? Do they specifically call attention to the need to earth both terminals? As @netblindpaul points out, there isn't a law about socket-outlet construction (just as there aren't laws about wiring) but if it incorrectly claims compliance with a standard, or fails to meet general provisions for safety, or lacks the necessary instructions to enable it to be used safely, it might be an offence to sell it.

 

[netblindpaul]

where you bin hiding? long time no see. ?

I rarely post because there are so many adverts on here I can’t be bothered most of the time to have to put up with the barrage, and I don’t like the cookie policy. As I understand it it requires you to allow too much cross site tracking and persistent cookies. I don’t believe that they are essential.
So it means that I have to log in every time and it is just too much hassle for me to bother with.
Plus I have been busy with other things.

 

[telectrix]

i use adblock. the only ads i see are the forum sponsorson the right side of my screen.

 

[netblindpaul]

i use adblock. the only ads i see are the forum sponsorson the right side of my screen.

Hassle on mobile devices though and I've not been at a computer so much recently.
Plus I have enough in having to know the details of half a dozen pieces of law, keep up with the changes in these and the several hundred standards that are linked to the product safety legislation without getting involved with any legislation and standards outside this, so I don’t like that the forum has ”gone international”, can’t be bothered to find out the location of the poster, and thus the requirements of the law and standards behind the question. Just too much hassle.

 

[DPG]

Hassle on mobile devices though and I've not been at a computer so much recently.
Plus I have enough in having to know the details of half a dozen pieces of law, keep up with the changes in these and the several hundred standards that are linked to the product safety legislation without getting involved with any legislation and standards outside this, so I don’t like that the forum has ”gone international”, can’t be bothered to find out the location of the poster, and thus the requirements of the law and standards behind the question. Just too much hassle.

One click on the poster's name gives you their location. Just ignore any non UK ones. And the American and Australian ones have their own section anyway.

 

[Strima]

So it turned up today. As pointed out by the OP there's no continuity across the earth terminations. If this was installed in a ring final the CPC would be discontinuous, two or more would mean sockets with no CPC present. If installed in a radial circuit every single socket afterwards would have no CPC.

Sorry the pictures are on the lash...

The only time you may get CPC continuity is if you installed this accessory in a metal backbox with fixed lugs. But the earth tags are loose and rely on the clamping screw to secure them in place.

The instructions are minimal bordering on dangerous, no mention of earth continuity.

Overall the unit feels cheap and tatty, I also found it difficult to put a BS1363 plug into the socket without excessive force.

Even the fixing screws are sharp, I haven't measured them but they look oversize.

My advice, stay away, if you have one fitted or see it on an installation get rid.

I'll be in touch with electrical safety first shortly.

 

[pc1966]

That really is a rubbish design and hopefully trading standards will do something about them. Ideally stop sales and force a product recall.

As you say, it is going to lead to no CPCs in one or more location depending on how it is installed unless someone is very diligent and discovered CPC links are needed at every socket.

Realistically, it is a fatal accident waiting to happen.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Deeply ambiguous instructions - show two G/Y cables but only refer to one - and patchy construction. Those contacts look pretty awful, they might be tight now (or undersize) but I wouldn't trust them to make good contact in five years time. No matter, the soldering of the line contacts to the PCB will probably have given way with metal fatigue by then if they get much use. Flimsy-looking line input termination that probably won't last at 20A.

OTOH it looks like the PCB itself might be reasonably well designed. There seems to be good creepage distance across the barrier c/w slotting where needed e.g under the relays and at the SMPSU transformer. The critical components such as the Y-cap across the barrier, non-flam / fusible resistors etc seem correctly specified and not skimped, although it's the electrolytics that will surely decide its fate and I can't see their faces. Personally I'd have given the relays a bit more airflow but I've seen worse.

Anyway, will be interesting to hear what if anything you get back. I won't be fitting any.