Minor Works Certificates

[Chris Hex]

Hi,
The NICEIC just told me I should not be issuing Minor Works Certificates for work carried out by the house owner but inspected and tested by me (NICEIC registered). I'm a bit surprised. So is that right no-one is allowed to run their own cables and connect their own sockets without energising the system, it all has to be done by a someone who is in a competent person scheme.
Cheers

Chris

 

[Pete999]

Think what they are getting at is, how can you certify work done by someone else, when you haven't a clue how the cabling was installed.
Not working any more and never been in one of the scams, what are the NICEICs thoughts on 3d party certification?

 

[Chris Hex]

Think what they are getting at is, how can you certify work done by someone else, when you haven't a clue how the cabling was installed.

That's a fair point. In this case as its in the garage I can see the cable run. So I guess the alternatives are pay for someone to run the cable or find someone who is willing to say they did it.

 

[Chris Hex]

I think I'll do a condition report, next time I'm asked to do this.

 

[Chris Hex]

Not working any more and never been in one of the scams, what are the NICEICs thoughts on 3d party certification?

3rd Party Certification is not something they do.

 

[Pete999]

That's a fair point. In this case as its in the garage I can see the cable run. So I guess the alternatives are pay for someone to run the cable or find someone who is willing to say they did it.

What exactly was the job that your customer did

 

[The Ghost]

With STROMA they were very jumpy about third party work being certified by me. However they saw my sub-contractors agreement and said that it would be OK to do it this way. So I get the person working to sign and date an all risk/H&S compliance statement including method statement. This way the onus is on them if they have departed from proper practices as they know the standard they have to work to, and only have themselves to blame if it goes wrong, as I have specified very particulary all the Acts and regs and H&S they agree to adhere to.

 

[Chris Hex]

What exactly was the job that your customer did

Extended the socket ring inside the garage to power 3 additional sockets.

 

[Chris Hex]

With STROMA they were very jumpy about third party work being certified by me. However they saw my sub-contractors agreement and said that it would be OK to do it this way. So I get the person working to sign and date an all risk/H&S compliance statement including method statement. This way the onus is on them if they have departed from proper practices as they know the standard they have to work to, and only have themselves to blame if it goes wrong, as I have specified very particulary all the Acts and regs and H&S they agree to adhere to.

That sounds like a good solution but I think I'll stick to a condition report in future.

 

[Pete999]

Extended the socket ring inside the garage to power 3 additional sockets.

Have you any idea how exactly he wired it?

 

[Chris Hex]

Have you any idea how exactly he wired it?

2.5 T & E clipped direct to the block work. CPC sleeved inside the sockets and terminations were correct. What do you think I might have missed?

 

[Pete999]

2.5 T & E clipped direct to the block work. CPC sleeved inside the sockets and terminations were correct. What do you think I might have missed?

Not sure if you have missed anything Chris, wondered if he had actually broken into the RFC or did the usual DIY trick of spurring the sockets, either way you have had to do the complete Ring test

 

[Pete999]

3rd Party Certification is not something they do.

In that case that's why they told not to certify the work

 

[westward10]

I would personally not issue a MWC for works I haven't carried out. EICR is fine, you could even limit it to the circuit/s which have been altered. Hate to say it but I am with the NIC on this. I feel a cold wind

 

[Chris Hex]

Not sure if you have missed anything Chris, wondered if he had actually broken into the RFC or did the usual DIY trick of spurring the sockets, either way you have had to do the complete Ring test

Thanks for the input Pete, its helpful. He had removed a single socket and added two junction boxes and extended from there. I did r1, r2, rn, then R1+R2, Insulation, Ze and RCD.

 

[Chris Hex]

Not sure if you have missed anything Chris, wondered if he had actually broken into the RFC or did the usual DIY trick of spurring the sockets, either way you have had to do the complete Ring test

Thanks for the input Pete, its helpful. He had removed a single socket and added two junction boxes and extended from there. I did r1, r2, rn, then R1+R2, Insulation, Ze and RCD.

I would personally not issue a MWC for works I haven't carried out. EICR is fine, you could even limit it to the circuit/s which have been altered. Hate to say it but I am with the NIC on this. I feel a cold wind

Thanks for the input Westwood, I'll stick to an EICR and just the extended circuits in future.

 

[Andy78]

You could also tell the DIYers and builders that want to take the mick out of you and your profession to find some other mug to sign the paperwork.

 

[Chris Hex]

You could also tell the DIYers and builders that want to take the mick out of you and your profession to find some other mug to sign the paperwork.

lol

 

[Pat H]

Don't forget as a member the NICEIE carries certain warranty comitments for its members.
So signing off on other peoples work leaves you and them liable.
A condition report is the safer solution although some building controls aren't keen.
I guess you can make a call on each job based on what you can inspect and decide if you are prepared to say it was your work.

 

[Chris Hex]

Don't forget as a member the NICEIE carries certain warranty comitments for its members.
So signing off on other peoples work leaves you and them liable.
A condition report is the safer solution although some building controls aren't keen.
I guess you can make a call on each job based on what you can inspect and decide if you are prepared to say it was your work.

Thanks for the advice Pat

 

[Octopus]

Why were you testing a DIYer's work?

 

[Chris Hex]

Why were you testing a DIYer's work?

Isn't that obvious.

 

[Octopus]

Isn't that obvious.

No..... and why are the NICEIC involved?

 

[westward10]

No..... and why are the NICEIC involved?

Sounds like the NIC have pulled him up on this.

 

[Chris Hex]

No..... and why are the NICEIC involved?

He rang me and asked if I could help. I have charged him money in exchange. That money goes towards paying for shelter and food for my family.

I use NICEIC competent person scheme. I would be genuinely interested if there is a better way of certificating and notifying domestic work.

 

[Chris Hex]

Sounds like the NIC have pulled him up on this.

Yes they have Westward, and as I have said before I will provide a EICR in future. Thanks for everyones advice its really helpful.

 

[Octopus]

He rang me and asked if I could help. I have charged him money in exchange. That money goes towards paying for shelter and food for my family.

I use NICEIC competent person scheme. I would be genuinely interested if there is a better way of certificating and notifying domestic work.

Why did the DIYer think it needed certifying and notifying?

Is this an extension under building control?

 

[westward10]

He rang me and asked if I could help. I have charged him money in exchange. That money goes towards paying for shelter and food for my family.

I use NICEIC competent person scheme. I would be genuinely interested if there is a better way of certificating and notifying domestic work.

The only way is to carry out an EICR ideally on the whole installation, the problem with limiting to the altered circuits is that your eyes are always going to wander. What if the works carried out are fine but the rest of it is poor, do you turn a blind eye. Surely these works weren't notifiable anyway.

 

[Chris Hex]

Lets not get the MWC certificate mixed up with my membership of NICEIC. The DIYers work doesn't need notifying. You asked why are NICEIC involved that because I use their online certification system.

I believe it needs a Minor Works Certificate because my copy of the wiring regs say "The Minor Works Certificate is intended to be used for additions and alterations to an installation that do not extend to the provision of a new circuit. Examples include the addition of socket-outlets".

I accept that NICEIC won't accept their system being used for 3rd party work. If you have another suggestion other than doing an EICR, I'm all ears.

 

[Octopus]

Imho it's best to decline any work that involves testing any diy work........

And how did the NICEIC know what you had done?

 

[Chris Hex]

The only way is to carry out an EICR ideally on the whole installation, the problem with limiting to the altered circuits is that your eyes are always going to wander. What if the works carried out are fine but the rest of it is poor, do you turn a blind eye. Surely these works weren't notifiable anyway.

I haven't said the work was notifiable. I was answering a question as to why I use NICEIC, one reason is for notifying work, but not in this case.
Section D of an EICR specifies the areas to be covered in the report and those that are not. So I can't see why the report can't be produced just covering the alter circuits and ZE, prospective fault current and RCD operation times.

 

[westward10]

There is no other option. It may be a commercial decision to be giving some sort of certification for other people's DIY work but I would personally recommend you steer clear of it, I can see why the NIC take a dim view on it.

 

[westward10]

I haven't said the work was notifiable. I was answering a question as to why I use NICEIC, one reason is for notifying work, but not in this case.
Section D of an EICR specifies the areas to be covered in the report and those that are not. So I can't see why the report can't be produced just covering the alter circuits and ZE, prospective fault current and RCD operation times.

Can't you not see the problem with what you are doing.

 

[Chris Hex]

Imho it's best to decline any work that involves testing any diy work........

And how did the NICEIC know what you had done?

That's probably great advice which I will take on board. The NICEIC online cert system doesn't allow you complete the cert with other peoples information in the box specifying who constructed it. Not knowing they wouldn't issued certs for 3rd party work I asked them why.

 

[Chris Hex]

There is no other option. It may be a commercial decision to be giving some sort of certification for other people's DIY work but I would personally recommend you steer clear of it, I can see why the NIC take a dim view on it.

Thanks that's probably good advice, that I will take on board

 

[Chris Hex]

Can't you not see the problem with what you are doing.

Spell it out for me. NICEIC recommended using an EICR as have others here.

 

[westward10]

Spell it out for me. NICEIC recommended using an EICR as have others here.

I was referring to the Minor Works.

 

[Chris Hex]

I was referring to the Minor Works.

Oh right I thought I had dealt with that on post number 4 of this thread.

 

[Octopus]

An EICR can cover as little or as much of an installation as the inspector agrees with the client.

As for a 3 part signature MWC I've never seen one of those.

 

[westward10]

Oh right I thought I had dealt with that on post number 4 of this thread.

Yeah I like to go on ignore me

 

[Chris Hex]

seems to of up loaded twice

 

[Octopus]

ah ha. Its the NICEIC cert system ...... another "interpretation" of the regs....

The sample forms in BS 7671 AMD3 are a better "template"

 

[Pat H]

Ot maybe the easy route to walkaway from diyer or 3rd party work but its not really helping ensure safety is it.
Who does sort that out?
Just leave households with potentially dangerous installations?
I'm happy to look and advice. I won't sign off work I've not done but I will do an EICR taking care to be clear what I have and haven't tested.
Niceic only need to be in the loop for notifiable work and that should be all your own work.
I'd only walk away if the homeowner ignored my advice related to safety.

 

[Octopus]

Ot maybe the easy route to walkaway from diyer or 3rd party work but its not really helping ensure safety is it.
Who does sort that out?
Just leave households with potentially dangerous installations?
I'm happy to look and advice. I won't sign off work I've not done but I will do an EICR taking care to be clear what I have and haven't tested.
Niceic only need to be in the loop for notifiable work and that should be all your own work.
I'd only walk away if the homeowner ignored my advice related to safety.

A sensible course of action - the last person who asked me to test, asked me also to quote to do the work - my quote to test was only slightly less than doing the works - so they got me to do the whole job!

 

[HandySparks]

I won't sign off work I've not done but I will do an EICR taking care to be clear what I have and haven't tested.

Quite.
There's no real difference between doing an EICR on some new DIY work and doing one on a house that contains DIY work done 10 years ago. You're just reporting on what you can inspect and test.

 

[Midwest]

ah ha. Its the NICEIC cert system ...... another "interpretation" of the regs....

The sample forms in BS 7671 AMD3 are a better "template"

I might be wrong, but I think the Certsure on-line forms reflect the fact that only a Qualified Supervisor can sign off the certificates. Something straight forward in my business, cos there's only me

However, larger companies will have 'Instructed persons (electrically)' who are capable to carry out installations without the need of close supervision. A ' Skilled persons (electrically)' would be needed to verify, inspect & test, and could be classified as a QS and sign off the certificate.

Although I note that BS7671 A3, has just 'I CERTIFY', I see that appendix 6 (ix) gives guidance on signing the forms, by or on behalf of business or individuals.

 

[Midwest]

Ot maybe the easy route to walkaway from diyer or 3rd party work but its not really helping ensure safety is it.
Who does sort that out?
Just leave households with potentially dangerous installations?
I'm happy to look and advice. I won't sign off work I've not done but I will do an EICR taking care to be clear what I have and haven't tested.
Niceic only need to be in the loop for notifiable work and that should be all your own work.
I'd only walk away if the homeowner ignored my advice related to safety.

I think the point is, you as being registered with the NIC, are not a registered 3rd party Certifier, because NIC/Elecsa never signed up to it.

If you want to continue to do so, you must register with one of the schemes that does, Napit & Stroma, and then register with them to carry out 3rd party certification. This link from a forum sponsor gives an explanation. Incidentally chaps, this report suggests an EICR cannot be used for 3rd party certification;

Register of 3rd Party Certifiers. What's happening? - https://www.tradeskills4u.co.uk/posts/3rd-party-register

 

[Pete999]

I think the point is, you as being registered with the NIC, are not a registered 3rd party Certifier, because NIC/Elecsa never signed up to it.

If you want to continue to do so, you must register with one of the schemes that does, Napit & Stroma, and then register with them to carry out 3rd party certification. This link from a forum sponsor gives an explanation. Incidentally chaps, this report suggests an EICR cannot be used for 3rd party certification;

Register of 3rd Party Certifiers. What's happening? - https://www.tradeskills4u.co.uk/posts/3rd-party-register

Thanks mate, a very enlightening document.

 

[Midwest]

I think the point is, you as being registered with the NIC, are not a registered 3rd party Certifier, because NIC/Elecsa never signed up to it.

If you want to continue to do so, you must register with one of the schemes that does, Napit & Stroma, and then register with them to carry out 3rd party certification. This link from a forum sponsor gives an explanation. Incidentally chaps, this report suggests an EICR cannot be used for 3rd party certification;

Register of 3rd Party Certifiers. What's happening? - https://www.tradeskills4u.co.uk/posts/3rd-party-register

Apologies, my post should of been directed at the OP.

 

[Octopus]

I think the point is, you as being registered with the NIC, are not a registered 3rd party Certifier, because NIC/Elecsa never signed up to it.

If you want to continue to do so, you must register with one of the schemes that does, Napit & Stroma, and then register with them to carry out 3rd party certification. This link from a forum sponsor gives an explanation. Incidentally chaps, this report suggests an EICR cannot be used for 3rd party certification;

Register of 3rd Party Certifiers. What's happening? - https://www.tradeskills4u.co.uk/posts/3rd-party-register

I'm with Stroma, and at my last assessment, the assessor asked me if I did 3rd party testing - to which I stated no, and never want to - he seemed "pleased" with my response!