New Mains Powered smoke alarm beta testers needed.

[togglenation]

Hi all,

I'm working in a company that makes battery smoke alarms, we're now one of the biggest intrusion alarm manufacturers in the EU region. We're developing our own Mains Powered Smoke / Heat / Co detectors and I would like to talk to proffesionl electricians who installs AICO / FireAngel / Kidde detectors.

We have some cool ideas how to improve existing smoke detectors, so we would like to hear from a proffesional electricians.

 

[Vortigern]

So how and what would you like to talk about. I fit these things and install fire alarm systems. So what's new about your gear? I get quite a few landlord jobs and have a job extending a fire alarm system in a commercial coming up so what could we do for each other with that in mind?

 

[togglenation]

So how and what would you like to talk about. I fit these things and install fire alarm systems. So what's new about your gear? I get quite a few landlord jobs and have a job extending a fire alarm system in a commercial coming up so what could we do for each other with that in mind?

Thanks for your reply. I'm mostly interested in your experience with existing devices, and what do you think about existing terminals. We're thinking of changing the screw terminal to wago style terminals.

 

[Vortigern]

Using Aico I often swear as the entry points for the cables are set in a square cage and small one at that so getting the cables in to the terminal is made difficult as they are hard to get at. Wago might be good but you need a straight entry into the terminals whatever the method of termination. Push fit would be good. You get them a lot on lights and when you are doing eighty lights it makes a hell of a difference. Detectors on fire alarm systems can be problematic. FP200 being so soft is prone to damage when attempting to make sure they are below the level required in order to get the detector to fit on the base. Screw terminals require a level of dexterity that is not often encountered in my trainees which results in lost screws. Although you should not really have to take them out it happens that inexperienced turn the screw too far and whoopsy, screw gone. Push fit would again be good.

 

[togglenation]

Using Aico I often swear as the entry points for the cables are set in a square cage and small one at that so getting the cables in to the terminal is made difficult as they are hard to get at. Wago might be good but you need a straight entry into the terminals whatever the method of termination. Push fit would be good. You get them a lot on lights and when you are doing eighty lights it makes a hell of a difference. Detectors on fire alarm systems can be problematic. FP200 being so soft is prone to damage when attempting to make sure they are below the level required in order to get the detector to fit on the base. Screw terminals require a level of dexterity that is not often encountered in my trainees which results in lost screws. Although you should not really have to take them out it happens that inexperienced turn the screw too far and whoopsy, screw gone. Push fit would again be good.

Wow, that's a lot of valuable information. Can I DM you for further communication?) Seems we have a lot of ideas that you might find useful.

 

[Vortigern]

Hi @togglenation, sure you can messag me, or discuss here and get a wider view

 

[littlespark]

I only ever fit aico… and find their connections lacking in space. Not the terminals, but the space needed for the tails.

At most, it should only be 2 x 3c&e, but sometimes you might need a 3rd cable in there if spurring to an additional detector. Normally that means an extra wago box in the ceiling above.

For the Scottish market, there are new rules coming in February that only allow F1 and D1 in a domestic setting… so basically nothing with a removable battery.
Adding onto an existing installation usually means changing a regular base to one with a radio module, and adding 10 year life battery detectors with radio, creating a part wired/part wireless system.

 

[SJD]

Ideally I like a smoke (or heat) alarm to use the same base as the same model (or range) as 10 years ago. Then when it expires, swapping is quick and simple. I hate brands that have changed the base / mounting, so you have to wire up a new base.

 

[togglenation]

I only ever fit aico… and find their connections lacking in space. Not the terminals, but the space needed for the tails.

At most, it should only be 2 x 3c&e, but sometimes you might need a 3rd cable in there if spurring to an additional detector. Normally that means an extra wago box in the ceiling above.

For the Scottish market, there are new rules coming in February that only allow F1 and D1 in a domestic setting… so basically nothing with a removable battery.
Adding onto an existing installation usually means changing a regular base to one with a radio module, and adding 10 year life battery detectors with radio, creating a part wired/part wireless system.

Thanks, pretty well aware of Scottish regulations and about sealed batteries as well. Still quite not sure how do you connect 2 x 3c&e or 3 x 3c&e cables? If the wires come just from the ceiling, do you use additional wagobox somewhere near? Maybe you can share a photo?)

Still very insightful information.

 

[togglenation]

Ideally I like a smoke (or heat) alarm to use the same base as the same model (or range) as 10 years ago. Then when it expires, swapping is quick and simple. I hate brands that have changed the base / mounting, so you have to wire up a new base.

We're thinking about different sizes of detectors and corresponding bases for Heat and for smoke since the size of the smoke and heat detectors can be different and you can pack heat detectors in a much more compact enclosure. Seems you this sounds bad to you as well?

 

[Resu]

Aico now have the same base for all of their mains-powered products: smoke, heat, co & multi-sensor which is great. Generally speaking if you're going back in 10 years to swap it would more than likely be like for like so not necessarily an issue to have different sizes for different detectors.

As has been said the area for dressing the wires is a tad small on these especially when faced with 3 cables which does happen on occasion. Lining up the cable entry onto a fastfix box can also be more difficult than it needs to be too!

 

[togglenation]

Aico now have the same base for all of their mains-powered products: smoke, heat, co & multi-sensor which is great. Generally speaking if you're going back in 10 years to swap it would more than likely be like for like so not necessarily an issue to have different sizes for different detectors.

As has been said the area for dressing the wires is a tad small on these especially when faced with 3 cables which does happen on occasion. Lining up the cable entry onto a fastfix box can also be more difficult than it needs to be too!

Noted with thanks.

You say that lining up a cable entry box with a detector hole is a difficult process. Is it because the hole is not in the center of the base? Or it's just because the detector base hole is just not big enough?

 

[Resu]

Noted with thanks.

You say that lining up a cable entry box with a detector hole is a difficult process. Is it because the hole is not in the center of the base? Or it's just because the detector base hole is just not big enough?

On the Aico ones it can be. It's due to being off-centre and there being too many hole options on the bases. I've found a few times that if I've had to replace a new style Aico base like for like it's common that the last man in had lined up the wrong fixing holes which means the overlap on the cable entry & box is very small. You're then left with the dilemma of struggling to fit the new one the same way or fitting it correctly, having a little more of an overlap but potentially leaving an unpainted bit of ceiling exposed.

 

[togglenation]

On the Aico ones it can be. It's due to being off-centre and there being too many hole options on the bases. I've found a few times that if I've had to replace a new style Aico base like for like it's common that the last man in had lined up the wrong fixing holes which means the overlap on the cable entry & box is very small. You're then left with the dilemma of struggling to fit the new one the same way or fitting it correctly, having a little more of an overlap but potentially leaving an unpainted bit of ceiling exposed.

Saw some of the replaced detectors pics which exposing some unpainted pics on Reddit) Can you please share the most typical fastfix boxes that you're using?

 

[Resu]

I wouldn't usually cut in a box for a smoke detector if fitting off a new install. I'm in Scotland so doing my bit for the LD2 upgrades, particularly for the local authority at the moment, that's where we're finding alot of previously fitted ones with backboxes behind. The reason being that the first detectors were likely the one with the little plugs on the back with the fly-lead attached.

 

[togglenation]

Ahh, I see now.

BTW, I have no idea how it can be possible to connect 2x 3c&e or even 3x 3c&e cables in a case like this. They simply wouldn't fit.

 

[Resu]

It's not fun but it is doable.

 

[littlespark]

its where 1mm cable has a huge advantage over 1.5mm.

Mid-line of a circuit is where you'de need 2 x 3cores.

Never needed to use it, but those bases also have a removable piece if you're wiring in MT2 mini trunking. (25x16) which, to me, would be damn near impossible to connect.
The holes in those bases for the screw heads are fine if you use the supplied screws, but if its just any old screw, ive seen existing where the head is sitting proud and not below (above?) the plastic.. so the detector itself doesn't slide on properly, or is forced on.

Is that someone using a straight screwdriver to turn a pozi screwhead??

 

[mark101]

I kind of like fitting aico however not if it's 1.5mm 3 core or lsf. if its 1mm 3core then they are great much better than what I have been fitting a lot of lately which is hi spec alarms they are fa pain in comparison also you cannot mix interlinked alarms and radio controlled alarms with hi spec unlike with aico.

I would like to see a slightly bigger area for terminating the cable along with interchangeable base unit across whole range (no neons on base) and circular unit so it doesnt take time putting it up square.

So basically an AICO alarm but larger area for terminating cable's as someone else mentioned sometimes you do have 3x3cores in there

 

[LastManOnline]

Ahh, I see now.

BTW, I have no idea how it can be possible to connect 2x 3c&e or even 3x 3c&e cables in a case like this. They simply wouldn't fit. View attachment 92357

As with previous posters I have the same issues with the inadequacy of the terminal box.By the way, I never connect them up as shown in the photo as I would end up tearing my hair out. I terminate before mounting the the base. Far easier.

 

[mark101]

As with previous posters I have the same issues with the inadequacy of the terminal box.By the way, I never connect them up as shown in the photo as I would end up tearing my hair out. I terminate before mounting the the base. Far easier.

I install hundreds of these alarms every year two lots of 3cores is the norm but not idea, it is possible to terminate three lots of 3 cores but it is tricky and I would not like to do it on a regular basis would much rather use a radio link if possible and take power from somewhere else

 

[Vortigern]

how do you connect 2 x 3c&e or 3 x 3c&e

With great difficulty! Hence the swearing, wondering if the people who design these things ever rig test them, I don't think so btw.

 

[Simon47]

They probably do test them - but at bench level, in a nice well lit lab, etc, etc. So not while perched on a ladder, with bits of plasterboard dropping in your face, and with room to tuck the spare cable into the void behind their test rig.

 

[LastManOnline]

I

I kind of like fitting aico however not if it's 1.5mm 3 core or lsf. if its 1mm 3core

I, m obliged to use a firetuff 3 core + earth. An extra core plus a less flexible cable which obviously does, nt help.

 

[pc1966]

Do they even make the FP200 or similar in 1mm?

 

[LastManOnline]

Do they even make the FP200 or similar in 1mm?

Must admit I have never seen it. In any case I am not allowed to use 1mm(more,s the pity!)

 

[pc1966]

Must admit I have never seen it. In any case I am not allowed to use 1mm(more,s the pity!)

It is one of the oddities in the UK regs that 1mm is only permitted for fixed wiring if it is for lightning. 1.5mm is the minimum for "power".

Now you can say the fire alarms are being mains powered, so need to have 1.5mm (for reasons nobody has quite explained) as a dedicated supply, even if from a 6A MCB. However, often they are permitted to be powered from a lighting circuit since people will notice and presumably fix any trip of that supply, which of course is probably done all in 1mm!

 

[mark101]

It is one of the oddities in the UK regs that 1mm is only permitted for fixed wiring if it is for lightning. 1.5mm is the minimum for "power".

Now you can say the fire alarms are being mains powered, so need to have 1.5mm (for reasons nobody has quite explained) as a dedicated supply, even if from a 6A MCB. However, often they are permitted to be powered from a lighting circuit since people will notice and presumably fix any trip of that supply, which of course is probably done all in 1mm!

That has never crossed my mind to be fair good shout

 

[togglenation]

It is one of the oddities in the UK regs that 1mm is only permitted for fixed wiring if it is for lightning. 1.5mm is the minimum for "power".

Now you can say the fire alarms are being mains powered, so need to have 1.5mm (for reasons nobody has quite explained) as a dedicated supply, even if from a 6A MCB. However, often they are permitted to be powered from a lighting circuit since people will notice and presumably fix any trip of that supply, which of course is probably done all in 1mm!

Wow, that's really odd. Can you point out which regulation forces to do so?

 

[pc1966]

Wow, that's really odd. Can you point out which regulation forces to do so?

Don't have my BBB with me but can look it up later. It is in the same section that only allows aluminium cables of 16mm and above (just for info!)

 

[polaroid]

This would be Table 52.3 P144 ?

 

[littlespark]

So what’s the reg here?
Are you saying that as smoke detectors are “not lighting” then they must be power, and as such have to be wired in 1.5 instead of 1mm?

Even though they are coming off a 6A OCPD, which 1mm can easily handle.

Common sense prevails over pedantic choice of words in the book here methinks.

 

[polaroid]

So what’s the reg here?
Are you saying that as smoke detectors are “not lighting” then they must be power, and as such have to be wired in 1.5 instead of 1mm?

Even though they are coming off a 6A OCPD, which 1mm can easily handle.

Common sense prevails over pedantic choice of words in the book here methinks.

Note 4 says that it applies to lighting circuits and associated small items of current using equipment, such as a bathroom fan.

Going by that table if a smoke alarm is wired in the lighting circuit it can be 1mm but if a dedicated circuit it has to be 1.5mm ?

[Edit] Specific reg is 524.1 that just mentions conductors shall not be less than stated in table 52.3 (Except ELV)

 

[togglenation]

We're thinking about a similar concept for the Smoke Alarm base like in this video.

To give an easy solution for installation when you have 3 x 3C&1E cables. What do you think?)

And the question: - Do you guys often face a need to terminate 3 x 3C&1E?

 

[brianmoooore]

Video doesn't work for me.
Rarely need 3 x 1.0mm2 3&E into the terminals, but it does happen occasionally. 2 x 3&E plus 1 x T&E would probably be needed more often, so that you can 'inject' power part way along the string of detectors, instead of just at the end.
2 x 3&E is the most common, found in every base except the first and last.
Produce a copy of Aico, but with a terminal box four times the size, and you may have a winner.

 

[UNG]

Video doesn't work for me

I've been following this thread since it started and the one thing that stands out is that Aico are the preferred choice for a lot of installers, the Aico product has been developed over the last 30 years so and is continually developing aside from a more electrician friendly termination what is the OP's company bringing to the party in terms of improvements and product range.
Aico are already developing building monitoring products as an add on to their current offerings will the OP's company be following this route as well if so I think they have a steep development curve to overcome to catch up to where the current market position is, Aico and Fire Angel have remote monitoring gateways, Aico's gateway took around 2 - 3 years to come to market from when it was first shown at one of their roadshow events so the total development time was probably more like 5+ years

So the question to the OP would be how long will it take to bring your products to the market place

 

[togglenation]

Video doesn't work for me

I've been following this thread since it started and the one thing that stands out is that Aico are the preferred choice for a lot of installers, the Aico product has been developed over the last 30 years so and is continually developing aside from a more electrician friendly termination what is the OP's company bringing to the party in terms of improvements and product range.
Aico are already developing building monitoring products as an add on to their current offerings will the OP's company be following this route as well if so I think they have a steep development curve to overcome to catch up to where the current market position is, Aico and Fire Angel have remote monitoring gateways, Aico's gateway took around 2 - 3 years to come to market from when it was first shown at one of their roadshow events so the total development time was probably more like 5+ years

So the question to the OP would be how long will it take to bring your products to the market place

I would say the Q4 2022. I know that the AICO is HUGE (>£140m in revenue only in the UK). However, we have something more to offer, not limited to fire safety.

And you're saying that the video above is not working for you. Don't you mind to tell why? Looks like a great concept from my POV. And we definitely want to give an alternative for screw terminal connection.

We will have 3D printed prototypes in a ~month, will be glad if you guys can look at it)

 

[UNG]

I would say the Q4 2022. I know that the AICO is HUGE (>£140m in revenue only in the UK). However, we have something more to offer, not limited to fire safety.

Aico are already looking to exploit their gateway comms with property monitoring products, so what are you and your company looking to offer

And you're saying that the video above is not working for you. Don't you mind to tell why? Looks like a great concept from my POV. And we definitely want to give an alternative for screw terminal connection.

Press the play button and the video doesn't load, therefore it isn't working

We will have 3D printed prototypes in a ~month, will be glad if you guys can look at it)

It will be interesting to see

 

[DPG]

+1 for the video not working. Has the file been moved or renamed maybe?

 

[togglenation]

Sorry for video, might work now)

 

[togglenation]

Aico are already looking to exploit their gateway comms with property monitoring products, so what are you and your company looking to offer

Press the play button and the video doesn't load, therefore it isn't working

It will be interesting to see

Hi, we already selling our gateways (we call them HUBS) and they are superior to EI electronics(AICO). We have an IOS/Android app and numerous scenarios for Fire, Bulgary, Water Flooding incidents, Furthermore we have smart home capabilities, like lighting controls, and many more.

Life quality sensors are on the way. And the only thing we missing right now is the Mains Heat detector (bs5446-2) and Mains Smoke detector. And I don't want to be as already mentioned above, the kind of company that doesn't test the equipment before producing the damn thing. That's why I'm here discussing all this with you.

Needless to say that I'm already very thankful for your inputs and insights.

 

[DPG]

Hi, we already selling our gateways (we call them HUBS) and they are superior to EI electronics(AICO). We have an IOS/Android app and numerous scenarios for Fire, Bulgary, Water Flooding incidents, Furthermore we have smart home capabilities, like lighting controls, and many more.

Life quality sensors are on the way. And the only thing we missing right now is the Mains Heat detector (bs5446-2) and Mains Smoke detector. And I don't want to be as already mentioned above, the kind of company that doesn't test the equipment before producing the damn thing. That's why I'm here discussing all this with you.

Needless to say that I'm already very thankful for your inputs and insights.

Could you post a link to your website showing details of the hubs you are currently selling. Thanks.

 

[togglenation]

Could you post a link to your website showing details of the hubs you are currently selling. Thanks.

Sure. Here is the link.

 

[Rockingit]

It is one of the oddities in the UK regs that 1mm is only permitted for fixed wiring if it is for lightning. 1.5mm is the minimum for "power".

Now you can say the fire alarms are being mains powered, so need to have 1.5mm (for reasons nobody has quite explained) as a dedicated supply, even if from a 6A MCB. However, often they are permitted to be powered from a lighting circuit since people will notice and presumably fix any trip of that supply, which of course is probably done all in 1mm!

Although bizarrely an argument can be made for 0.75mm flex!

 

[DPG]

Although bizarrely an argument can be made for 0.75mm flex!

If you go bigger than 0.75mm then your pendants dangle in a wonky manner. Which nobody wants

 

[littlespark]

You might want a doctor to have a look at that @DPG

 

[DPG]

You might want a doctor to have a look at that @DPG

My Mrs sometimes says it needs to be thicker. Although why she's interested in pendant flex size i don't know.