New socket on ring main - replace consumer unit?

[Midwest]

Think the OP's got bored with all the silly chit chat, and gone back to using the 4 way extension block.

Happy New Year's ya filthy animals.

 

[streamer]

What about replacing an existing faulty socket which isn't protected by an RCD, would that have to be an RCD socket too?

 

[andyb]

What about replacing an existing faulty socket which isn't protected by an RCD, would that have to be an RCD socket too?

No, but make a note on the certificate along with any other observations.

 

[sparksburnout]

No, but make a note on the certificate along with any other observations.

Your winding us up, right?
Yeah, just thought again, definitely a wind up.

 

[andyb]

No windup. Like for like replacement. You'd just leave the damaged socket then?

 

[sparksburnout]

if it was a like for like replacement why would there be a certificate? Maybe I am coming into this a bit late...

 

[andyb]

if it was a like for like replacement why would there be a certificate? Maybe I am coming into this a bit late...

MWC, if I'm replacing a socket and there are issues with the existing installation I'm going to note that on the cert. And advise the customer according.

 

[GMES]

Doing a straight swap socket front for socket front, would this not just be classed as Maintenance, Just playing Devils Advocate.

 

[westward10]

MWC, if I'm replacing a socket and there are issues with the existing installation I'm going to note that on the cert. And advise the customer according.

With you on that.

 

[streamer]

if it was a like for like replacement why would there be a certificate? Maybe I am coming into this a bit late...

We have to provide a certificate for everything now. In this case a Minor Works.

 

[westward10]

Doing a straight swap socket front for socket front, would this not just be classed as Maintenance, Just playing Devils Advocate.

What if I replace a damaged like for like dist board.

 

[andyb]

That's not playing devil's advocate, that's playing the devil himself.

 

[sparksburnout]

You would provide a MWC for replacing a like for like socket????

 

[westward10]

You would provide a MWC for replacing a like for like socket????

Yes.

 

[sparksburnout]

Yes.

Including ALL the tests on it? properly? And how much would you charge the customer for this? Amazing.

 

[westward10]

Including ALL the tests on it? properly? And how much would you charge the customer for this? Amazing.

Yep, most of the remedials/repairs we do are from EICRs so we allow for retesting.

 

[GMES]

Westy can you try and keep your replies a bit shorter please mate

 

[westward10]

Westy can you try and keep your replies a bit shorter please mate

Better

 

[sparksburnout]

Yep, most of the remedials/repairs we do are from EICRs so we allow for retesting.

I am quite amazed. I can't imagine you are employed for a living. Why would you think it is necessary to provide a MWC for a simple socket replacement? This is something that a householder is allowed to do?

 

[Doomed]

Completely off topic, but we switched a like for like light fitting in a shop, and the management company now want a minor works - ffs the job took 20 minutes, the test would take about 3 hours after I had disconnected the other light fittings for the insulation test, done all the tests and then reconnected them (which would then mean I potentially could of introduced more faults / loose connections).
Sometimes the insistence of a minor works is a bit silly - fair enough if you are altering the circuit (as they are designed for) but just for a like for like replacement? What rot!

 

[andyb]

Including ALL the tests on it? properly? And how much would you charge the customer for this? Amazing.

What tests? I only put whats relevent. Zs, ocpd, rcd test if present, whatever. I don't do IR or R1+R2. It takes a couple of minutes to change a socket, I charge for an hour, plenty of time to fill out a MWC.

 

[Doomed]

The minor works I use have boxes for insulation tests and R1+R2, so my logic is that if I don't fill out the cert as it is designed to be filled out there is no point in doing the cert at all.

 

[sparksburnout]

Completely off topic, but we switched a like for like light fitting in a shop, and the management company now want a minor works - ffs the job took 20 minutes, the test would take about 3 hours after I had disconnected the other light fittings for the insulation test, done all the tests and then reconnected them (which would then mean I potentially could of introduced more faults / loose connections).
Sometimes the insistence of a minor works is a bit silly - fair enough if you are altering the circuit (as they are designed for) but just for a like for like replacement? What rot!

I think hes just winding us up. maybe been on the magic mushrooms by the picture.

 

[sparksburnout]

The minor works I use have boxes for insulation tests and R1+R2, so my logic is that if I don't fill out the cert as it is designed to be filled out there is no point in doing the cert at all.

Absolutely. I have the same one as you, IR, R1+R2. Either do it right or don't bother, there is no need anyway!!

 

[Doomed]

I think hes just winding us up. maybe been on the magic mushrooms by the picture.

Even more off topic - HMS Hood and shrooms -what are YOU on boy?

 

[andyb]

Absolutely. I have the same one as you, IR, R1+R2. Either do it right or don't bother, there is no need anyway!!

They all have the same, I just put N/A.

 

[westward10]

Completely off topic, but we switched a like for like light fitting in a shop, and the management company now want a minor works - ffs the job took 20 minutes, the test would take about 3 hours after I had disconnected the other light fittings for the insulation test, done all the tests and then reconnected them (which would then mean I potentially could of introduced more faults / loose connections).
Sometimes the insistence of a minor works is a bit silly - fair enough if you are altering the circuit (as they are designed for) but just for a like for like replacement? What rot!

Why do you want to disconnect all the fittings, just do IR to earth.

 

[sparksburnout]

They all have the same, I just put N/A.

Do you have a standard pro-forma for socket/switch/FCU etc swaps, with "N/A" in all the boxes?
I am losing the will a bit here. If I gave most of my customers a MWC for changing a socket they would roll it up and throw it at me.

 

[sparksburnout]

What tests? I only put whats relevent. Zs, ocpd, rcd test if present, whatever. I don't do IR or R1+R2. It takes a couple of minutes to change a socket, I charge for an hour, plenty of time to fill out a MWC.

Just thinking about it, if you are changing a socket on an RFC, the only test worth really doing is a continuity test at the CU in case one of the conductors has snapped when you screwed it back on, but you don't do that?

 

[andyb]

Do you have a standard pro-forma for socket/switch/FCU etc swaps, with "N/A" in all the boxes?
I am losing the will a bit here. If I gave most of my customers a MWC for changing a socket they would roll it up and throw it at me.

Well I assume you do some tests, what do you do with the results?

 

[Doomed]

Why do you want to disconnect all the fittings, just do IR to earth.

Shhh - being pedantic 'cos that what it asks for on the minor works form

 

[Doomed]

Well I assume you do some tests, what do you do with the results?

Note the Zs (and RCD if applicable) results on the job sheet and file it for 7 years then shred it.

 

[andyb]

Note the Zs (and RCD if applicable) results on the job sheet and file it for 7 years then shred it.

Not a million miles away from what I do, only I note them on a MWC.

 

[sparksburnout]

Well I assume you do some tests, what do you do with the results?

OK i will be honest, some might not. If a customer rings me with a broken socket, switch stuck or face cracked, for example. I will swap it out, do a continuity test at the socket while de-energised, do a Zs when back up. Check CU damage/bonding/earth. Make appropriate suggestions if relevant, charge for the swap. No MWC. Job was to swap socket, that's all, local handyman could have done it, legally.

 

[hightower]

local handyman could have done it, legally.

And if a handy man was doing it he'd be required to complete a MWC if he was complying with BS 7671

 

[Wilko]

And if a handy man was doing it he'd be required to complete a MWC if he was complying with BS 7671

I read BYB part 2 where Minor Works are defined as "additions and alterations to an installation that do not extend to the provision of a new circuit". So to me, the like-for-like maintenance replacement of a cracked outlet in Sparks post #84 isn't a Minor Works. But I am always happy to learn

Edit : filling out a MWC can be done for this work, but I don't think it has to be (?) We are always required to to do "appropriate inspection and testing" of any work.

 

[sparksburnout]

And if a handy man was doing it he'd be required to complete a MWC if he was complying with BS 7671

Last time I gave a (admittedly elderly) customer a MWC for a minor job, they looked at me blankly, in a mild state of panic. "What do I have to do with this?" they said. "Oh just put it with all your other important household documents" I told them. "Is it an important document then?" he said, even more worried. What can you say? For a socket change?
If it wasn't printed both sides i suppose they could use it for the ASDA list. I think I will just carry on not complying personally.

 

[Hellmooth]

And if a handy man was doing it he'd be required to complete a MWC if he was complying with BS 7671

How are you not complying with BS7671 if you don't supply a minor works for changing a socket like for like?

 

[westward10]

I think it is a matter of personal preference, you could argue it is not required and visa versa. We always provide one as a record of works carried out with the only test not generally carried out being IR between line/neutral. I suppose in the future should something happen to someone using the socket, you have proof that you carried out the minimum of required tests. Without this you can only verbally insist it was okay at the time of replacement.

 

[Hellmooth]

Yes it is good practice for a company for records etc, it isn't required and when replacing one for myself or my mother I wouldn't be supplying a minor works, same for light switches and fittings.

 

[Hellmooth]

Like for like

 

[westward10]

Yes it is good practice for a company for records etc, it isn't required and when replacing one for myself or my mother I wouldn't be supplying a minor works, same for light switches and fittings.

True I do plenty of family "freebies".

 

[Hellmooth]

I will rarely charge friends, I like to use my skills to be able to help them out, I make my money elsewhere.

 

[hightower]

I think I will just carry on not complying personally.

I'm not saying you're not speaking logically, in fact quite the opposite. I just always understood that a cert of some kind was required for ANY electrical work.

 

[sparksburnout]

I'm not saying you're not speaking logically, in fact quite the opposite. I just always understood that a cert of some kind was required for ANY electrical work.

Probably is. How an individual operates is up to them I think. I do find it a bit odd when people worry about what may happen in the future, following things like a socket change. it's just a socket, or a switch, or a light fitting, what can go wrong, other than it getting damaged? And how would the future "enquiry" know which socket was replaced anyway?

 

[andyb]

B

I do find it a bit odd when people worry about what may happen in the future, following things like a socket change. it's just a socket, or a switch, or a light fitting, what can go wrong?

If you change a socket for example and there's no rcd protection a lot could go wrong. As I said earlier, I charge for the hour anyway so why not just change the socket and carry a couple of relevant tests? The mwc is a simple 1 page doc that takes a couple of minuets to fill out on which you can put any observations on the existing installation. I'm still out of there in 1/2 hour and that's with a cuppa.

 

[Andy78]

If you look on the back of the MWC model form it says something to the effect of:
For replacements, you don't have to provide a MWC, but you can. You should test though regardless of whether or not those results are recorded and a cert is issued

 

[westward10]

Probably is. How an individual operates is up to them I think. I do find it a bit odd when people worry about what may happen in the future, following things like a socket change. it's just a socket, or a switch, or a light fitting, what can go wrong, other than it getting damaged? And how would the future "enquiry" know which socket was replaced anyway?

Be specific, "replace broken socket in hallway" for example. Hopefully nothing will go wrong and obviously over a period of time a MWC may be negated anyway.

 

[andyb]

Of course a mwc could be lost, so could the invoice.
Don't forget the origin of this debate, someone asked if you would do a like for like swap of a socket if there was no rcd protection. In that situation I feel you need to issue a mwc mainly to record your observations. I'm still not sure why you wouldn't.

 

[Midwest]

I did post a similar question about Minor Works for accessory replacement on domestic installations (on another forum), and it was 50-50 split. The pros quoted demonstrating what you have done, limiting litigation or blame should things go wrong, rental properties, dodgy properties, the fact it doesn't take up huge amount of time and just being a plan ol' professional electrician p). The conns quoted home owners have no idea about or careless about a cert, the cost (to the customer) of doing full tests for a cert, disconnecting circuit at CU for tests, locating/isolating appliances and testing only if the installation could benefit.

B67671 suggest Minor Works may also be used for replacement of accessories or luminaires, but appropriate inspection & testing...should always be carried out irrespective of the extent of the work undertaken.

Have to say, returning to this industry (domestic) in the last few years, I have had only one customer who could provide a certificate for previous work. When I have replaced a socket faceplate, or installed a luminaire, I do not always complete a MEIWC. I do carry out appropriate tests, but do not disconnected a circuit to do so. I keep record of the tests I've done.

Anything more, or the installation looks anything other than satisfactory, I will do a MEIWC. And I will do the full tests, and not write LIM or N/A.

Just my opinion.