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Discuss NHS issues safety alert on socket covers requiring removal from NHS premises! in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net
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Update from HSE:
HSE have had correspondence with the founders of Fatally Flawed on the use of socket covers over many years. HSE hold a neutral position on these items as there are no health and safety regulations that either require or ban the use of socket covers. Modern domestic and general use socket outlets to BS1363 have safety shutters within them to prevent access to live parts (inside the lower two openings of a socket outlet). The risk of anyone accessing live parts of such a socket outlet is considered to be low due to this feature. The decision on whether or not to use socket covers is a matter for the dutyholder after considering the risks.
HSE does not have the legal powers to prevent these products being placed on the market however, such powers are available to local authority Trading Standards departments and are monitored by the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (BEIS).
In response to your specific questions:
1 & 2. Your 2nd question presumes the devices are dangerous. We do not intend to reopen debates that have been had many years ago – see above.
3. HSE’s position has been made known many times to various organisations and has not changed from that given above.
4. as advised above it is for trading standards, not HSE , to consider your suggested recommendation.
HSE have had correspondence with the founders of Fatally Flawed on the use of socket covers over many years. HSE hold a neutral position on these items as there are no health and safety regulations that either require or ban the use of socket covers. Modern domestic and general use socket outlets to BS1363 have safety shutters within them to prevent access to live parts (inside the lower two openings of a socket outlet). The risk of anyone accessing live parts of such a socket outlet is considered to be low due to this feature. The decision on whether or not to use socket covers is a matter for the dutyholder after considering the risks.
HSE does not have the legal powers to prevent these products being placed on the market however, such powers are available to local authority Trading Standards departments and are monitored by the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (BEIS).
In response to your specific questions:
1 & 2. Your 2nd question presumes the devices are dangerous. We do not intend to reopen debates that have been had many years ago – see above.
3. HSE’s position has been made known many times to various organisations and has not changed from that given above.
4. as advised above it is for trading standards, not HSE , to consider your suggested recommendation.
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Below is a reply from Ofsted regarding my questions on post #76.
We do not believe the Department for Education (DfE) has changed its policy, since it makes it clear that using socket covers is not illegal, and it has not changed the Statutory framework for the early years foundation stage (EYFS) to require providers not to use them. In its statement, you refer to, the DfE does refer to the fact that providers will need to take the Department of Health’s advice into account in conducting the risk assessments that are already required under the EYFS, and we support that approach.
Furthermore, we will ensure our inspectors are alert to the DfE’s message on this point.
I hope this helps clarify our position.
We do not believe the Department for Education (DfE) has changed its policy, since it makes it clear that using socket covers is not illegal, and it has not changed the Statutory framework for the early years foundation stage (EYFS) to require providers not to use them. In its statement, you refer to, the DfE does refer to the fact that providers will need to take the Department of Health’s advice into account in conducting the risk assessments that are already required under the EYFS, and we support that approach.
Furthermore, we will ensure our inspectors are alert to the DfE’s message on this point.
I hope this helps clarify our position.
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I had this email from RoSPA yesterday.
It’s gratifying that you set so much store by the advice RoSPA gives on our website. If you’d like to provide me with the following I’ll certainly take it into account when future amendments are made:
I assume you will have previously presented such evidence to the Department of Health in order to secure their support. Unfortunately before an organisation like RoSPA can take action on a safety matter we do need to be sure that we can present clear evidence not just of the theoretical hazard but also the risk and the scale of the problem.
Congratulations The Royal Society of the Prevention of Accidents (RoSPA). The organisation that is actually waiting for someone to get injured before doing anything......
It’s gratifying that you set so much store by the advice RoSPA gives on our website. If you’d like to provide me with the following I’ll certainly take it into account when future amendments are made:
- Links to any reputable websites that have updated their information (obviously I am aware of the DH although this is principally an internal technical document, and of Fatally Flawed)
- Any recent case studies of anyone injured as a result of the use of socket covers
- Any comparative analysis of numbers of people injured as a result of a socket cover being present compared to numbers of people injured by use of electric sockets when socket covers weren’t present
- Any new evidence of increased hazards beyond the information which has been on the Fatally Flawed website for many years
I assume you will have previously presented such evidence to the Department of Health in order to secure their support. Unfortunately before an organisation like RoSPA can take action on a safety matter we do need to be sure that we can present clear evidence not just of the theoretical hazard but also the risk and the scale of the problem.
Congratulations The Royal Society of the Prevention of Accidents (RoSPA). The organisation that is actually waiting for someone to get injured before doing anything......
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It seems my winning personality has not won this time. RoSPA have rejected me and no longer wish to talk to me.
This is what I received.
Always happy to have dialogue but have shared our current view and our commitment to review so really have nothing to add at this stage.
I have pointed out that in the 4 months I have been in contact with them there has been no visible change to their policy.
If anyone would like to follow up or just ask RoSPA's opinion on the Department of Health alert then you can contact the below gentleman. Good luck, I hope he helps you out more.
Ashley Martin
Public Health Project Manager.
His email address is:
[email protected]
I am now going to sulk in a corner... I don't like rejection....
This is what I received.
Always happy to have dialogue but have shared our current view and our commitment to review so really have nothing to add at this stage.
I have pointed out that in the 4 months I have been in contact with them there has been no visible change to their policy.
If anyone would like to follow up or just ask RoSPA's opinion on the Department of Health alert then you can contact the below gentleman. Good luck, I hope he helps you out more.
Ashley Martin
Public Health Project Manager.
His email address is:
[email protected]
I am now going to sulk in a corner... I don't like rejection....
OP
- Reaction score
- 97
It seems my winning personality has not won this time. RoSPA have rejected me and no longer wish to talk to me.
This is what I received.
Always happy to have dialogue but have shared our current view and our commitment to review so really have nothing to add at this stage.
I have pointed out that in the 4 months I have been in contact with them there has been no visible change to their policy.
If anyone would like to follow up or just ask RoSPA's opinion on the Department of Health alert then you can contact the below gentleman. Good luck, I hope he helps you out more.
Ashley Martin
Public Health Project Manager.
His email address is:
[email protected]
I am now going to sulk in a corner... I don't like rejection....
They are blinkered, have their head in the sand, but are consistent (which, in this case, is not something to be proud of!)
Quote on this subject from 2008, RoSPA Deputy Chief Executive writing to me: “RoSPA's position won't change unless evidence suggests that socket covers have suddenly started to seriously harm hundreds of children every year.”
FatallyFlawed believes that one child harmed is too many, or one family dying in a house fire caused by a socket fire is too many!
B
Barry White
Spoon you tried hard and seemed to get further unfortunatly you got the same old answer. Well done for trying
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It has not finished yet my friends.
I have told RoSPA that I will keep an eye on their policy and send them a reminder, on a periodic basis, if there is no visible change.
I'm sure Mr Martin will soon be pining for one of my emails, if I don't send him one. We are like brothers.....
I have told RoSPA that I will keep an eye on their policy and send them a reminder, on a periodic basis, if there is no visible change.
I'm sure Mr Martin will soon be pining for one of my emails, if I don't send him one. We are like brothers.....
OP
- Reaction score
- 97
TODAY, ITV's "Good Morning Britain" transmitted a piece about poorly performing nurseries. Amongst their complaints was "exposed sockets", referring to sockets which (correctly) had no socket covers! See GMB Investigates: Are nurseries safe? - at 2 minutes 40 seconds.
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Unbelievable.... They should have got their fact right.
Looks like I will have to see tomorrow if I can contact GMB and notify them of the DoH alert.
OP
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- 97
You need: [email protected] The more people who tell them the better!
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Thanks. I spotted the email at the bottom of the link. I will get in touch tomorrow.
- Reaction score
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I have been having a nice conversation with a guy from GMB asking about these covers.
I have answered his questions and gave him the contact details & web site for FatallyFlawed. There are a lot more qualified people here that can explain the possible dangers of these sockets than me.
Hopefully he will get in touch.
I have answered his questions and gave him the contact details & web site for FatallyFlawed. There are a lot more qualified people here that can explain the possible dangers of these sockets than me.
Hopefully he will get in touch.
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done exactly same. emailed gmb and sent a link to fatallyflawed
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Nice one.
(I have to keep reminding myself that you're not referring to the General, Municipal and Boilermakers!)
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Latest from HSE.
Please see below response from the Policy team.
Your recent correspondence is noted.
1. There is no ‘new’ information provided on socket covers only that a body has decided to publish its position on their use within their premise. This does not change HSE’s stated view on the use of these items.
2. You appear to have misunderstood the information we provided here - HSE doesn’t rely on external bodies to determine its policy. As previously stated HSE has no powers to ban these items, the appropriate body with the powers to do so is Trading Standards.
You may be interested to note that the charity Electrical Safety First holds similar views on these devices see Socket covers - http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/news-and-campaigns/press-releases/2009/06/socket-covers/.
HSE now consider this correspondence closed.
Thank you for your feedback and comments.
I was also asking them to go along the same route as the DoH alert, but now would be happy if they just did something similar to the DfE and updated their policy and added a link to the DoH alert.
So the HSE are now sending out out-of-date info on these safety covers to the public from third party organisations, like Electrical Safety First. Electrical Safety First have updated their policy on these covers in 2015.
Please see below response from the Policy team.
Your recent correspondence is noted.
1. There is no ‘new’ information provided on socket covers only that a body has decided to publish its position on their use within their premise. This does not change HSE’s stated view on the use of these items.
2. You appear to have misunderstood the information we provided here - HSE doesn’t rely on external bodies to determine its policy. As previously stated HSE has no powers to ban these items, the appropriate body with the powers to do so is Trading Standards.
You may be interested to note that the charity Electrical Safety First holds similar views on these devices see Socket covers - http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/news-and-campaigns/press-releases/2009/06/socket-covers/.
HSE now consider this correspondence closed.
Thank you for your feedback and comments.
I was also asking them to go along the same route as the DoH alert, but now would be happy if they just did something similar to the DfE and updated their policy and added a link to the DoH alert.
So the HSE are now sending out out-of-date info on these safety covers to the public from third party organisations, like Electrical Safety First. Electrical Safety First have updated their policy on these covers in 2015.
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Reply to NHS issues safety alert on socket covers requiring removal from NHS premises! in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net
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