OSG, bonding plastic pipes etc etc

[magnoliafan89]

Hi all

Having a thumb through the OSG and on section 4.5 Main protective bonding of plastic services, it says there is no need to bond an incoming service of the service pipe is plastic....thats kind of a given....my struggle lies on the next page;
"Where there is a plastic incoming service and a metal installation within the premises, main bonding is recommended unless it has been confirmed that anu metallic pipework within the building is not introducing Earth potential"

Is there a way of determining if there could be an earth potential?
I may be asking a really simple question and be mortified by stupidity but at this moment in time im lost. If a house is supplied with plastic services incoming but then throughot the dwelling it is metal pipes...whats the score with bonding?

Cheers in advance

 

[Richard Burns]

The plastic incoming service cannot introduce an earth potential but the metallic pipes within an installation may go underground or perhaps across to another building in an unsealed duct and the contact of the pipes with earth may permit them to introduce an earth potential, even a copper pipe firmly clamped to a very damp wall without a DPC might be able to do it.
Testing the resistance of the metal pipework to earth and ensuring it is above 22kohms, just as you would for a metal incoming service pipe. would test this (usually with an IR tester).

 

[Deleted member 9648]

In practice this test can be difficult to interpret due to parallel paths. Disconnect the means of earthing from the MET before testing or you may get a reading through water heaters/pumps/boilers etc. Even then a parallel path to the water service may exist through the gas/oil service to the boiler mechanically linked to water pipes. The gas/oil service will be separately bonded and will not affect the need or otherwise to bond the water service.
In practice I find a reading above 22K means I can ignore the water service, but a reading below does not necessarily confirm the water requires bonding. In that case a certain amount of visual verification is required and the application of professional judgement.

 

[Pete999]

In practice this test can be difficult to interpret due to parallel paths. Disconnect the means of earthing from the MET before testing or you may get a reading through water heaters/pumps/boilers etc. Even then a parallel path to the water service may exist through the gas/oil service to the boiler mechanically linked to water pipes. The gas/oil service will be separately bonded and will not affect the need or otherwise to bond the water service.
In practice I find a reading above 22K means I can ignore the water service, but a reading below does not necessarily confirm the water requires bonding. In that case a certain amount of visual verification is required and the application of professional judgement.

Just bond the pipe at the plastic/copper transition point.

 

[Midwest]

OP, I've asked a similar question a while back, can't find the thread now. As been said about testing to see if the pipework is extraneous. If you have a copy of GN8, it goes into a bit of detail in 6.1, with some example formulae & calculations.

 

[Rpa07]

The boiler manifold, having gas and water input with all feed pipes going their ways, will give connection to the Boiler circuit CPC as well which has given rise to the 18th edition dropping bonding on plastic water incoming services.

 

[Midwest]

That has somewhat confused me (the example boiler cpc thing). Size of bonding is selected to size of earthing conductor, to enable it to carry fault current in certain circumstances, i.e. larger csa than typical final circuit cpc. Therefore can't see how that's changed from the 17th to 18th?

 

[Richard Burns]

I too would like to have some clarification on post #6, background, references and reasoning for compliance.

 

[Pete999]

I watched a JW video on main bonding, now I'm the last person to say he is wrong knowing his track record, but despite my earlier post where I said bond it anyway, a sweeping statement you say, well JW made another statement plastic incomers with copper internal pipe work does not need bonding, no testing mentioned, so unless there is a definitive statement to "not bond" I'll stick to my guns and bond it anyway.

 

[magnoliafan89]

Thanks for all the replies guys

 

[suffolkspark]

The thing i think of if say in a loft or under the floor... A rat munches on a cable and it lays on a hot pipe... Perfectly reasonable scenario... Well if we all stop bonding the water at point of entry as seems to be the case, and more so with the 18th coming... Whats to protect us from the pipework becoming live in this situation

 

[telectrix]

but the hot pipe is bonded by way of the boiler , and hence the gas pipe,

 

[suffolkspark]

Yea guess thats true

 

[magnoliafan89]

So what youre saying is that because there is a cpc by means of the boiler supply that this can act as a bond?

 

[Pete999]

So what youre saying is that because there is a cpc by means of the boiler supply that this can act as a bond?

Think what Tel is saying is "the boiler will be bonded via the main Gas bond" Tel will rip me a new one if I have it wrong I'm sure.

 

[telectrix]

agree pete, if the gas is bonded, then the metal water pipes are also bonded, albeit not in accordance with 7671.

 

[Midwest]

I believe the draft 18th was suggesting amending reg 411.3.1.2 with 'Metallic pipes entering the building having an insulating section at their point of entry need not be connected to the protective equipotential bonding'. Whereas currently its sort of mentioned in reg 544.1.2 that the bonding should be made after said insert.

But that still doesn't change the fact that extraneous conductive parts shall be connected to the main earth, as required by 411.3.1.2.

The IET, wouldn't be winning prices with the Plain English Society

 

[Ian1981]

Despite this new regulation coming into play when the 18th edition comes into effect about plastic inserts , my company just had their annual NICEIC inspection.
A question I wanted asking by my QS to the NICEIC inspector was does this now clarify the fact that gas pipes for new builds do not require protective bonding as the pipe underground is in yellow plastic rising to a meter box on the side of the property.
From there a copper pipe exits from the consumer side of the gas meter through the wall in a plastic sleeve,then off into the house to wherever it needs to go.
The answer was it’s metallic in the house so requires bonding.
How if the supply is in plastic does it still require bonding?
So despite this new regulation coming it seems there’s still much confusion to what is and what isn’t an extraneous conductive part.
I’ve even tested it as a matter of interest in one of the plots I did.
15Mohms was the reading I got but I’m told it still requires bonding pfttt!!

 

[Midwest]

I was having a butchers round some new show homes recently. On the CU was a printed label, that said words to the effect, water service plastic, internals plastic, therefore water not bonded. Don't know why they chose to share that with everyone?

 

[Rpa07]

I think that this subject reference to the 18th omission of bonding where incomers are plastic rises from the fact that in the 18th all circuits are required to have RCD protection, Lighting included.
I can imagine that with so many homes going up that new house builders are required of these things and are able to omit these things (bonding) whereas the rest of us who deal in the real world who daily come across old installs in domestic that have no bonding or earthing and obviously are not RCD protected.
I found one on Thursday that requires massive updating to bring it up to even a safe state so I’m having to quote to TT an install after making my call to the DNO today.
We’ve all got stories.
As for @Richard Burns I heard this at the ELEX Elecsa talk to trade seminar referencing the 18th changes expected post the consultation.
There is a cinema event coming up at 40 cinemas over the country in The next month.
@camerabloke can bring his popcorn!

 

[telectrix]

you got cinemas in Bristol? do they show "talkies"?

 

[Rpa07]

you got cinemas in Bristol? do they show "talkies"?

Rude!
I was trying to find an up to date list but I don’t think it’s out yet.
We still have the lady on the piano at the front - you should see her trying to keep up with a Hollywood car chase!

 

[Midwest]

There is a cinema event coming up at 40 cinemas over the country in The next month.
@camerabloke can bring his popcorn!

Yes, and they are (Certsure) spending my money, hiring the Faraday Lecture Hall, uploading the conference to satellite, and pinging it to selected cinemas, invited architects and all sorts. £5 a head. Instead of them larging it up, they'd please me and a lot of others by reducing their fees.

 

[Rpa07]

It’s so we are all singing from the same hymn sheet, I’m near the front as a soprano (the high voice one not the murderous kind).
At least they are charging per head to recoup some of your money - I’ve been told to pay you directly.
Can I have your bank details and PIN code.

Yes, and they are (Certsure) spending my money, hiring the Faraday Lecture Hall, uploading the conference to satellite, and pinging it to selected cinemas, invited architects and all sorts. £5 a head. Instead of them larging it up, they'd please me and a lot of others by reducing their fees.

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

wasnt there talk in the 18th draft that water/gas pipes might not need to be bonded in the new edition given the amount of plastic used in the supply outside to the property?
i vaguely recall something about it. of course if you start adding plastic in between existing parts of copper then it makes the issue irrelevant for a large part of the install.

 

[Midwest]

It’s so we are all singing from the same hymn sheet, I’m near the front as a soprano (the high voice one not the murderous kind).
At least they are charging per head to recoup some of your money - I’ve been told to pay you directly.
Can I have your bank details and PIN code.

What I can't quite understand, is their events like Live South 2018, are £29+vat for members and £49+vat for non members, populated with sponsors. Whereas the Faraday Theatre lecture, that must be costing a Kings ransom, no sponsors etc, is just £5+vat to anyone.

Go figure that. Don't I (Certsure) look important now.

 

[johnduffell]

The thing i think of if say in a loft or under the floor... A rat munches on a cable and it lays on a hot pipe... Perfectly reasonable scenario... Well if we all stop bonding the water at point of entry as seems to be the case, and more so with the 18th coming... Whats to protect us from the pipework becoming live in this situation

Nothing.
The case you are thinking of is a failure of both insulation and sheathing, which is not intended to be protected by bonding nor earthing.

Bonding protects an equipotential zone from a potential being introducted from outside the zone relative to DNO earth (usually local earth). Such means of introduction are called extraneous conductive parts.
There is also earthing, which protects against faults inside class I equipment and involves connecting the casing of such equipment back to the DNO earth to disconnect the supply in the case of a fault inside. Likewise for single insulated wires elsewhere and metal cased switchgear.

Both bonding and earthing add a very small element of danger due to the connection of conductive parts to the electrical installation which may lift them above local earth.
Not earthing your butter knives in case someone uses them to poke the bread from the toaster is an example to the contrary about danger from not earthing the mentioned pipes.
Indeed, in every case, having any conductive parts whatsoever in the vicinity of an electrical installation adds an element of danger, so plastic pipe and timber studwork is the way forward if that small level of risk is not acceptable.

 

[alasdairp]

Some of the above posts seem to miss the point that if internal metal pipework is connected to metal taps (etc), then it needs to be earthed. If the 22k ohm or the 5 Meg ohm pipeworks got shorted to the phase conductor then the 22k would trip the RCD (if fitted on old installations) but the Meg ohm pipework would sit at 230 volts - a real hazard. As I understand the situation, bonding is only not required when all touchable metal parts (taps, sinks, radiators) are only connected by insulated fittings (or pipework). Otherwise it should be bonded. Proper bonding at the boiler (water, gas or oil pipe) is probably best.

 

[Midwest]

To late for me, perhaps tomorrow

 

[johnduffell]

Some of the above posts seem to miss the point that if internal metal pipework is connected to metal taps (etc), then it needs to be earthed.

not sure about needs, I specifically addressed that in detail with explanation and example

If the 22k ohm or the 5 Meg ohm pipeworks got shorted to the phase conductor then the 22k would trip the RCD (if fitted on old installations) but the Meg ohm pipework would sit at 230 volts - a real hazard.

likewise with your teaspoons, knives, wedding ring, keys, door handles, cordless drill, chisels

I mentioned in my previous posts that the only way to ensure safety is to not have anything conductive but I'd have to go further and recommend wearing a full metal chainmail suit to create your own personal equipotential zone.

 

[Richard Burns]

Conductive parts in the vicinity of the electrical installation but not part of it are not required to be earthed because the regulations require that the risk of electrical contact is addressed and minimised.

An exposed conductive part, i.e. one which is an integral part of the electrical installation, accessible to touch and may become live under fault conditions, is required to be earthed.

Bonding would be required to conductive parts likely to introduce an external potential into the installation.

Neither of the above two cases is applicable to metal parts accessible to touch that are not part of the electrical installation.

 

[HandySparks]

Neither of the above two cases is applicable to metal parts accessible to touch that are not part of the electrical installation....

... and not extraneous.

 

[EalingBadger]

Some of the above posts seem to miss the point that if internal metal pipework is connected to metal taps (etc), then it needs to be earthed. If the 22k ohm or the 5 Meg ohm pipeworks got shorted to the phase conductor then the 22k would trip the RCD (if fitted on old installations) but the Meg ohm pipework would sit at 230 volts - a real hazard. As I understand the situation, bonding is only not required when all touchable metal parts (taps, sinks, radiators) are only connected by insulated fittings (or pipework). Otherwise it should be bonded. Proper bonding at the boiler (water, gas or oil pipe) is probably best.

I thought the current advice was that kitchen sinks most definitely do NOT require bonding.

Seems a bit counter-intuitive I'll grant, but that is my understanding of the latest solid advice on the subject.

 

[EalingBadger]

My brother-in-law is a Gas Safe engineer and he is adamant that plastic gas pipes coming out of the ground have to be converted to metal (usually barrel) before they emerge - the reason for this being that plastic is not considered mechanically, UV, or thermally (think extraneous applied heat from the sun or open flames (well, it is gas pipe!)), robust enough.

Thus the (metal) gas meter and therefore any metal pipework connected to it on the consumer side will be at local earth potential.

MDPE pipe is only UV resistant in black. Potable water is blue - but for internal or underground use only, and gas is always yellow.

 

[Midwest]

I thought the current advice was that kitchen sinks most definitely do NOT require bonding.

Seems a bit counter-intuitive I'll grant, but that is my understanding of the latest solid advice on the subject.

I think your 'current advice' was actually a few decades back.

Naah that's definitely a have.

 

[EalingBadger]

I think your 'current advice' was actually a few decades back.

Really?

Happy to be corrected, but I am pretty sure that I saw this on one of the web sites like voltimum.co.uk in recent months...?

Here is just one reference:

IET Forums - Kitchen sink bonding - https://www.------.org/forums/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=205&threadid=32335

but I'm sure I have seen it elsewhere as well.

 

[robd]

I was having a butchers round some new show homes recently. On the CU was a printed label, that said words to the effect, water service plastic, internals plastic, therefore water not bonded. Don't know why they chose to share that with everyone?

They've probably been pulled in the past by a jobsworth from an office so did it to save about a million emails and phone calls to try and explain why.....been there had that

 

[EalingBadger]

I think your 'current advice' was actually a few decades back.

Naah that's definitely a have.

Ah, I see what you mean now (I think!) - the advice is not new but it remains current.

 

[Midwest]

Really?

Happy to be corrected, but I am pretty sure that I saw this on one of the web sites like voltimum.co.uk in recent months...?

Here is just one reference:

IET Forums - Kitchen sink bonding - https://www.------.org/forums/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=205&threadid=32335

but I'm sure I have seen it elsewhere as well.

Have you read your link?

 

[EalingBadger]

Have you read your link?

Yes - briefly reminded myself of what it said again today but first read it ages ago.

I am guilty of too broad a brush stroke with the "NOT" in my first post. Of course, it should be "may not" - the possibility of metal waste pipes and all that should be taken into consideration.

(I love a bit of pedantry - as long as it is not me on the receiving end of it of course. )

 

[johnduffell]

I thought the current advice was that kitchen sinks most definitely do NOT require bonding.

Seems a bit counter-intuitive I'll grant, but that is my understanding of the latest solid advice on the subject.

Maybe, but if you replace the word "bonding" with "connecting to one side of the electrical installation (that's hopefully close to local earth)" and the word "sink" with "a large piece of touchable metal" then it seems a lot less counter intuitive.

 

[Midwest]

They've probably been pulled in the past by a jobsworth from an office so did it to save about a million emails and phone calls to try and explain why.....been there had that

I'd just made a note in the EIC.

As a new home owner, I don't really want to see a 'fuse board', especially one covered in labels. Just saying.

 

[Midwest]

Yes - briefly reminded myself of what it said again today but first read it ages ago.

I am guilty of too broad a brush stroke with the "NOT" in my first post. Of course, it should be "may not" - the possibility of metal waste pipes and all that should be taken into consideration.

(I love a bit of pedantry - as long as it is not me on the receiving end of it of course. )

I do try not to be excessive about detail, not a good trait.

As someone who spent ages under metal kitchen sinks, trying to attach a conductor ('cos the plumbers didn't care sparks had to then), I was rather glad it ceased, along with earthing ali windows & garage doors. But that went out in the 1980's (15th Ed?). I would of thought that would of been long since forgotten about. Like researching something, without using Google

 

[DPG]

I still bond my upvc windows. Just to be safe.

 

[robd]

I'd just made a note in the EIC.

As a new home owner, I don't really want to see a 'fuse board', especially one covered in labels. Just saying.

I know but when the plumber turns up to service the boiler and notes that the service isn't bonded and you have 4 phone calls 3 emails and in the end a visit to take your own picture to send to prove your point you wish there was a million stickers on the board instead, speaking from experience like