PAT testing fixed appliances?

[rasell]

This seems to be a grey area in the industry, the code says fixed appliances should be PAT tested but alot of the common PAT testing equipment cannot handle this sort of test.
I've come across different answers:
1. don't pat test fixed equipment
2. only do a visual + earth bond with a multimeter
3. some testers have in-situ earth bond / touch current tests
4. use PAT equipment that has probes, either at the back of the equipment or the connector box or fusebox to test
5. PAT testers should not take apart accessories or rewire things

Can anyone shed any light on this? I've seen a safety block advertised which can be used to connect via a plug to a PAT machine.

The multifunction devices don't have sufficient AMPs for PAT testing which can be up to 26A.

 

[sbrown2]

Hi

I test second hand equipment in a charity shop as it needs to be tested for resale. I use a AVO PAT 4 Tester. Portable appliances with a three pin plug are no problem. Anything else and I use adaptors some made and tested by myself and multimeter to test. Also with fixed appliances I add an additional label that states "This is a fixed appliance and needs installing by a competent electrician" . I hope this helps.

Regards

 

[Adam W]

The way I see it there are 2 tests:

The 'Periodic Inspection Report' tests the fixed installation, ie the wires in the walls, consumer unit, sockets, lights etc.
The 'Portable Appliance Test' tests everything else, ie the appliances which the consumer can change, cooker, hand dryer etc.

The only grey area comes in when people have started lashing in non-standard things like sockets wired in t&e then spurred off an existing socket with a plugtop, random plugtops with bits of flex disappearing off into walls etc. These should be identified by both tests - the customer shouldn't need to get separate tests for portable appliances, moveable equipment, stationary equipment, fixed equipment, built-in equipment etc and it's inappropriate to leave, for example a washing machine untested because the tester doesn't feel it is sufficiently 'portable'.

For fixed equipment and built in equipment I use a homemade bit of flex with crocodile clips on the end, which I feel is safe enough provided I am careful with it and only use it with the tester. The safety connection units you can buy are a nice idea, but there is often not enough flex on the appliance to make a connection.

 

[rallyandy]

Hi
I do a lot of PAT testing, I use the Fluke 6500 which has most of the tests required programmed as standard, the machine will takes 3 pin plugs and IEC leads as standard, you are supposed to test all equipment connected to the fixed installation, which includes things like water heaters connected by fused spur units which i do using a breakout box.
I only use multimeters for equipment drawing more than 13 amp which is the limit of the PAT tester so tests have to be done individually as all portable or moveable appliances have to be tested.
hope this helps PM me if you need anything else
Andy

 

[a12jpm]

** Stupid question alert ** - what's a breakout box mate? Got any pics?

 

[rallyandy]

Hiya, not a stupid question that is what we are all here for, a breakout box is basically a 3 pin plug, flex and a box which has sprung connectors to attach the appliance you are testing flex cord. will try and find some pics

 

[ringer]

Hi
I use the Fluke 6500 ...I only use multimeters for equipment drawing more than 13 amp which is the limit of the PAT tester so tests have to be done individually as all portable or moveable appliances have to be tested....

Multimeters or Multi Function Tester (such as Megger MFT1552)? What sort of tests are you doing with them?

 

[rallyandy]

hi ringer
I use Megger MFT1553 to carry out insulation test, continuity test of earth path,resistance of appliance

 

[ringer]

Have not yet had the pleasure of testing anything that draws >13A but am sure I will come across somesuch sooner rather than later.
I follow you with the IR and continuity, but not with resistance of appliance. Why would you test that?

 

[rallyandy]

the resistance test is just to check that the appliance hasn't short circuited, example i had once is a coffee pot warmer that hadn't been used for a long while was suddenly pulled out of a cupboard by a customer of mine with no plug on it and a previous fail label on it. well i tested the resistance and found a dead short and informed customer it was right to be failed even though earth continuity was right and insulation resistance. he still did not believe me and fitted plug then plugged it in and tripped MCB straight away due to a dead short on the element., hope this helps
andy

 

[blackiel]

Anyone reccomend a place in london for taking Pat test Exam,How much and how long...Cheers

 

[ringer]

Assuming the IR and earth bond checked out ok, then if the appliance appeared to be ok I think I would just switch it on for a functional test (to save getting egg on my face if it didn't work). But I now understand why you did that with such a dodgy appliance. Would probably do that myself - but only if it was suspect. For such a 'simple subject' there aren't half a lot of variables at play with PAT testing aren't there?

 

[rasell]

Having looked carefully at different books etc. it appears that the answer is that in some circumstances (part 10 of the code) a low resistance ohmeter / insulation tester can be used, which as far as I can tell means a mutifunction tester can be used in limited circumstances provided it has a resolution of at least 0.01 for resistance.
So you could isolate the supply etc. then do insulation by combining phase and neutal vs earth, and do earth with low amps.

 

[UNG]

This is where PAT testing is really mis named and mis understood, In Service Equipment Inspection and Testing which is the correct name just doesn't have the same ring and doesn't slip off the tongue as easy as PAT and does actually clear up any grey area as Portable isn't mentioned so all appliances require inspection and test whether fixed or portable

 

[IP2X]

I’ll say ‘Hello’ here as this is my first post.
Any advice regarding the PAT testing of electronic office equipment, computers and the like, would be handy right now.
Not done much of this testing and the little I have done the tester just ran a programme test and recorded the results.
Now I have an office to visit and I’m not sure how much ‘testing’ I can do.
I recon I’ll do the PAT course after the college break.


.

 

[DurhamSparky]

god help you dont fry the PC on the wrong test!!!

really you should do the PAT 2377 course before you do any testing as if your competence is called into account you have no formal qual to say you studied the field...!!!

also dont forget insurance!!

 

[IP2X]

god help you dont fry the PC on the wrong test!!!

really you should do the PAT 2377 course before you do any testing as if your competence is called into account you have no formal qual to say you studied the field...!!!

also dont forget insurance!!

Thanks.


.

 

[Liberator]

This seems to be a grey area in the industry, the code says fixed appliances should be PAT tested but alot of the common PAT testing equipment cannot handle this sort of test.
I've come across different answers:
1. don't pat test fixed equipment
2. only do a visual + earth bond with a multimeter
3. some testers have in-situ earth bond / touch current tests
4. use PAT equipment that has probes, either at the back of the equipment or the connector box or fusebox to test
5. PAT testers should not take apart accessories or rewire things

Can anyone shed any light on this? I've seen a safety block advertised which can be used to connect via a plug to a PAT machine.

The multifunction devices don't have sufficient AMPs for PAT testing which can be up to 26A.

Don't forget also, that contacting the manufacturer of the equipment is advised to find out what tests are required post-repair.

Every equipment manufacturer that I have phoned have a technical department ready to help us PAT testers when we need it.

They would much rather help us discreetly over the phone than have some of their customers buying equipment that "fails" from their company.

This goes for any manufacturer and any type of equipment.

I remember testing a bunch of new LCD TV's in a hotel that were all failing on the Earth Leakage tests. Rather than just failing them I phoned the manufacturer. It took many phone calls and many departments but eventually got through to a technical director that said it could be excessive earth leakage being detected from the coaxial cable from the atennae. Don't forget TV signals in the Antennae are energy too and connect to the earth shielding of a tv.

The alternative would be to have the customer go crazy at the manufacturer for having a bunch of bad appliances, the manufacturer resolve the issue after a lot of expense and bother, then they would both come after you.

If in doubt call the manufacturer.

 

[UNG]

If in doubt call the manufacturer.

In this cost conscious age of 50p / appliance and a requirement to do 200 - 250+ tests per day what pays for the call and the time to do it? !!

 

[Liberator]

Only yourself if your self-employed........

If you work for a company, ask them.. It can take time and money, depends how thorough you choose to be.

If your charging 50p a test you should have enough work to be employing an army of pat testers.

We charge £1.95/test..... and still knock out 200 tests a day.. set yourself apart from the competition.

If you're the cheapest, your not necessarily the best...... would you by 5p can of beans, or the 67p can of beans, and is there a difference in quality?

 

[Adam W]

Using the same analogy, a 67p tin of Heinz beans still ticks the same box for being "a tin of beans" as a 14p tin of Asda smart price beans; more customers would be bothered about ticking the box 80% cheaper than they would by having 'not just any oold beans' on their toast.
... And it's the same with PAT testing - most companies get someone in to do it because they have to, not because they're bothered about the safety of their employees. The average facilities manager wouldn't have the first idea about testing portable appliances - they just want the boxes ticked for cheap.

Same reason Ryanair are still in business.

 

[UNG]

We charge £1.95/test..... and still knock out 200 tests a day.. set yourself apart from the competition.

If you're the cheapest, your not necessarily the best...... would you by 5p can of beans, or the 67p can of beans, and is there a difference in quality?

I don't believe anybody on their own could properly test, inspect and document 200 appliances in a day , assuming an 8 hour day it's 2.4 minutes per appliance. The insurance industry seem to accept that by the high indemnity premiums talked about on this forum recently

I set myself apart by not competing in this area PAT just aint worth it if you want to do the job properly

Do you get a better quality of PAT test if the tester eats the more expensive beans?

 

[Liberator]

I'm just saying you have the premium end Market and the low end Market in any sales area. Cars, food, pat testing....

50p a test, 16.7p for the tax man, I'd guess 14 pence for the labels, paper, test certificates, electricity consumption, fuel and marketting if your lucky.

20 pence profit per test isn't a business.

And if u get a client with 4000 tests to be carried out in a week how are you going to pay engineers out of that profit. Oh yeah, that's why the FM companies use me, because I'm still in business.

Landed a job in may for 120,000 tests a year over the next 4 years so I guess some people do like Heinz lol

 

[Adam W]

I don't think anyone here would disagree with you in saying there's something a bit fishy about 50p per test - all you'd really have time to do on that money is pay some kid minimum wage to go around slapping stickers on appliances without doing any form of testing or inspection whatsoever.
This is obviously recklessly irresponsible and could potentially endanger lives, but to someone who doesn't know what they're buying all they can really do is shop around based on price.

Personally I would never dream of operating a company which only does appliance testing, least of all because you'd need to compete for work against people who are cutting corners to drive down the price.

 

[cambria]

My personal view on this is any appliance no matter how big which has a plug on should be PAT tested. If the appliance is wired into a Fused connection unit or switch then to test the appliance would involve safe isolation and dismantling of the connection and I think this is beyond what is required for PAT testing. I would consider such appliances should have IR and earth continuity checked when the fixed wiring of the building is being inspected. Unfortunately this probably doesnt always happen as ithe requirement has not been defined by anybody.
I think the PAT testing market is too cut throat to make serious money and a lot of time is wasted gaining access to the equipment and sometimes even trying to locate it.

 

[UNG]

If the appliance is wired into a Fused connection unit or switch then to test the appliance would involve safe isolation and dismantling of the connection and I think this is beyond what is required for PAT testing. I would consider such appliances should have IR and earth continuity checked when the fixed wiring of the building is being inspected. Unfortunately this probably doesnt always happen as ithe requirement has not been defined by anybody.

I think you will find it has been defined as PAT is only a term given to the broader requirement of "In Service Equipment Inspection and Testing" which also deals with fixed appliances

With regard to testing fixed appliances if this was tested as part of a normal PIR then the frequency of the inspection may be too infrequent to fulfil the maintenance requirements of the HSE

And yet again we come back to the subject of the competant person who can do the job properly and completely

 

[cambria]

Yes fair point! I was thinking about people only qualified to do PAT testing delving into the back of FCUs or switches which is what your last statement aludes too

 

[Krabby Patty!]

Hello, new to this site and VERY new to pat testing….
I have got quite a large pat testing job coming up in the next few days and was trying to get my head around this ‘Testing Fixed Appliances’ but reading the previous posts I am still at a loss?
Am I correct in saying that only being a City & Guilds 2377 qualified I shouldn’t be testing ANY fixed appliance as I shouldn’t be undoing the fixed spur and this should only be tested by a fully qualified electrician.
Many thanks for any help you can offer.
Krabby……

 

[B6 7BU]

Hello, new to this site and VERY new to pat testing….
Krabby……

Have you got a copy of this book?

​

 

[IP2X]

Have just ordered a copy from Amazon. Only £33.25!

 

[Krabby Patty!]

Have you got a copy of this book?

View attachment 3842​

Yes....

 

[B6 7BU]

trying to get my head around this ‘Testing Fixed Appliances’ but reading the previous posts I am still at a loss?
Krabby……

Take a look at page 72

 

[Krabby Patty!]

Take a look at page 72

Thanks for helping, Im on page 72 and i still am not quite getting it....(must be thick) sorry.
Reads...
Equipment that is permanently connected to a flex outlet type can be more readily tested using an insulation / continuity test
Wouldent I have to take off the spur or the appliance to bits to do this?
Sorry to be a pain....
Krabby!

 

[ringer]

If you are thinking you would need to be a qualified electrician to take apart a FCU, and then to refit it, then think again. There is no such thing as a qualified electrician. However, when working on an electrical installation, you do need to be competent to undertake the work involved. But then there is no specific definition of what a competent person is. So I would ask myself this question - "Am I competent to safely isolate the accessory, to confirm that isolation, to then remove the wires from it for testing, and then to reconnect those wires correctly and re-energise the accessory?" If the answer is a confident "Yes" then there will be no problem. It would help if you had any sort of formal training in wiring electrical accessories, but is not entirely necessary.
The next questions to address are a) do you have appropriate test equipment/adaptors for this work? and b) have you priced the job accordingly (this operation will take far longer than with equipment connected with a normal plugtop)?

 

[Krabby Patty!]

That’s really good information and help.
Nail on head!
Yes I was worried that I needed to be a qualified electrician to remove the spurs to test etc and didn’t want to take them off for some ‘raincoat’ to tell me that I shouldn’t be doing it that and needed to be a qualified electrician.
I’m happy isolating them and completing the actual testing job in hand and fully appreciate your advice regarding the extra time needed to complete the testing.
Kind regards to all.

Krabby !

 

[UNG]

That’s really good information and help.
Nail on head!
Yes I was worried that I needed to be a qualified electrician to remove the spurs to test etc and didn’t want to take them off for some ‘raincoat’ to tell me that I shouldn’t be doing it that and needed to be a qualified electrician.
I’m happy isolating them and completing the actual testing job in hand and fully appreciate your advice regarding the extra time needed to complete the testing.
Kind regards to all.

Krabby !

I suppose removing them is one thing but can you replace them correctly?!! which would be the more critical part of the testing procedure and more likely to compromise the safety of the appliance and installation in the long term

 

[Krabby Patty!]

Yes, thanks for asking...

 

[oldtimer]

If you are thinking you would need to be a qualified electrician to take apart a FCU, and then to refit it, then think again. There is no such thing as a qualified electrician. However, when working on an electrical installation, you do need to be competent to undertake the work involved. But then there is no specific definition of what a competent person is. So I would ask myself this question - "Am I competent to safely isolate the accessory, to confirm that isolation, to then remove the wires from it for testing, and then to reconnect those wires correctly and re-energise the accessory?" If the answer is a confident "Yes" then there will be no problem. It would help if you had any sort of formal training in wiring electrical accessories, but is not entirely necessary.
The next questions to address are a) do you have appropriate test equipment/adaptors for this work? and b) have you priced the job accordingly (this operation will take far longer than with equipment connected with a normal plugtop)?

I Hate to rain on anybodys parade but I was told at the college that you have to be a fully qualified electrician to open up a FCU to PAT test a fixed appliance I think thats why they are having to review because fixed equipment falls under the realms of II&TEE and they are being ignored plus dont look for a filler course to allow you to do this if you are PAT trained only.

 

[ohreally]

To muddy already murky waters, the learning lounge- part two PAT testing; items to be tested, informs us that built in equipment is not expected to be tested during a PA test but to be tested during a periodic inspection and test.

Sends shivers down my back as I got overdosed on Dave during 2382 and 2391.

 

[oldtimer]

To muddy already murky waters, the learning lounge- part two PAT testing; items to be tested, informs us that built in equipment is not expected to be tested during a PA test but to be tested during a periodic inspection and test.

Sends shivers down my back as I got overdosed on Dave during 2382 and 2391.

Listen they can say what hey want but PAT testing fixed appliances comes under ISI&TEE as it says in the COPs I am not saying it cannot be done but it cannot be included in the PIR/EICR so cost will have to come into it plus companies who do I&T will have to get tooled up for ISI&TEE (formally PAT) and who is to stipulate this gets done in other words you say to a customer I can do your EICR but there will be an extra charge to PAT test your fixed appliances me thinks the answer will be dont bother I just want an EICR so I will go elsewhere

 

[davidadams170]

I think that the person undertaking PAT testing must be competent to inspect & test an electrical appliance in order to determine if it is safe to use based on the inspection and test results. Training will be required and must cover the following areas:

• Identification of equipment types
• Appropriate test procedures
• Frequency of inspection & testing
• Visual inspection
• Correct use of test instruments
• Record keeping.The person responsible for repairing any faulty equipment must be trained and competent to do so. Equipment must be re-tested following the repair and record kept of the repair.An appliance of less than 18kg in mass that is intended to be moved whilst in operation or an appliance which can easily be moved from one place to another, e.g. vacuum cleaner, toaster, food mixer, etc.This equipment or an appliance which is fastened to a support or otherwise secured in a specific location, e.g. bathroom heater

 

[oldtimer]

David i think you are telling us what we already know the nub of the question is why is fixed appliances being ignored because guys who are PAT testers only and not electricians cannot test them but at the same time there is no direction to tell people to test them ie PAT is for portable only when its ISI&TEE

 

[ohreally]

nub of the question is why is fixed appliances being ignored because guys who are PAT testers only and not electricians cannot test them

Perhaps. Consider the issues of competence, qualifications and training are addressed and met - could the real reason simply be its too time consuming. For one, I don't rush through jobs; I take as much time as necessary to complete the job to my satisfaction, making up adaptors and things like that if i don't have them, to permit testing to be completed properly. Would a national organisation allow their testers to have a work rate of 50-100 tests per day - I think we all know the answer to that, and I suspect this is mainly where the problems lies.

Of course there will also be an element who are unaware of the testing procedure for anything beyond a plugtop test.

 

[oldtimer]

No actually the "industry" knows it has a problem because PAT gives the impression that it is portable appliances only the only problem is that an EICR covers the fixed wiring only the COP ISI&TEE formally PAT is meant to cover portable and fixed equipment testing the only thing is that they are quite happy to train the non electrician to do PAT but now fixed appliances are banging on the door I asked the college lecturer who was giving the In Service Ispection & Testing of Electrical Equipment can you not just give these guys a course on how to test fixed appliances and the reply was NO it just cannot be done plus they need to relaunch PAT to ISI&TEE because fixed appliances are being ignored and as he put it the industry can no longer brush it off.

So Fixed appliances is and will be a hot topic in the near future

 

[ohreally]

So ultimately, where do we end up? Descent sparks are unlikely to embrace appliance testing all day, and a black hole awaits in terms of non-electricians continuing to body swerve fixed appliances either through ignorance/ lack of experience/ competence.

Given BS EN62638 is only a few weeks away, has anyone seen a preview?

 

[oldtimer]

Speaking to the college lecturer who seems to be on a better forum than us they need to deal with this and look at it this way we are in the middle of the worst economical crisis and these clowns decide they need to shake things up to keep themselves in a job a bit like BGB Onsite guide EICR. I think a compromise will be reached where big "PAT" companies will have to have an in house spark for fixed appliances as they will not sanction PAT guys to do it. So why not ignore it well insurance thats the problem PAT guys for PAT but not FA. But again with all these Schemies who will be left to roll out a ISI&TEE (PAT relaunch) so no doubt ESC will have to do it.

 

[Tonkatoy27]

Say you got called into an office to test the appliances and only did the portable ones that plugged into your tester. Then some poor lady got a belt off the toilet hand drier and you hadn't tested it because it hasn't got a plug on it. Who do you think would be at fault? The client because they asked you to 'PAT' test or you who didn't satisy the criterior of the testing guidance notes?

I test portables with a Seaward Primetest 300 at a rate of around £2 per item give or take depending on the amount. 50p or similar does not allow time for a comprehensive test.
Then I test fixed appliances with an MFT at an hourly rate. (divided by the minutes taken as on a holiday cottage it might just be the boiler and it's a bit unfair of me to charge a minimum hour or whatever)

I cannot understand why PAT tester do not include fixed appliances in their testing when they require the same testing. What am I saying, of course I can, either they do not have an MFT, or do not know how to do manual tests, or cannot be bothered as it requires more effort than pushing a plug in, pressing start and daydreaming.

I'm also soooooo hacked off qwith constantly getting undercut by people doing half the job I do. I'm lucky the local schools value quality.

 

[UNG]

Say you got called into an office to test the appliances and only did the portable ones that plugged into your tester. Then some poor lady got a belt off the toilet hand drier and you hadn't tested it because it hasn't got a plug on it. Who do you think would be at fault? The client because they asked you to 'PAT' test or you who didn't satisy the criterior of the testing guidance notes?

Using the same scenario but the client asked for In Service Inspection & Test of the Electrical Equipment how many of these PAT testing outfits would actually do it or know what it was and more to the point correctly advise the client

There is ignorance on both sides of this coin the customer is not fully aware of his / her obligations under the law and is frightened into this testing by the penalties if something goes wrong and the testers don't advise the customer as to how they meet the regulations because a lot of them don't know themselves

You mention the use of testers and meters in your post and at 50p / appliance how many appliances are ever connected to one

There has been too much quick training throughout the electrical industry in the last few years and the large number of career changers that it has attracted based on big advertised earnings have diluted the knowledge level and no allowance has been made for the lack of in depth knowledge this type of training achieves or the duty of care that the customer expects from the person they are contracting their work to really screws Part P and a lot of other regs introduced to promote and improve safety

 

[Tonkatoy27]

Using the same scenario but the client asked for In Service Inspection & Test of the Electrical Equipment how many of these PAT testing outfits would actually do it or know what it was and more to the point correctly advise the client

There is ignorance on both sides of this coin the customer is not fully aware of his / her obligations under the law and is frightened into this testing by the penalties if something goes wrong and the testers don't advise the customer as to how they meet the regulations because a lot of them don't know themselves

You mention the use of testers and meters in your post and at 50p / appliance how many appliances are ever connected to one

There has been too much quick training throughout the electrical industry in the last few years and the large number of career changers that it has attracted based on big advertised earnings have diluted the knowledge level and no allowance has been made for the lack of in depth knowledge this type of training achieves or the duty of care that the customer expects from the person they are contracting their work to really screws Part P and a lot of other regs introduced to promote and improve safety

Exactly. If I have a new customer asking for PAT testing then I explain that it includes the neccassary fixed appliance testing and the the charges it incurrs. I've never had a query other than the obligitory, "oh for christs sake, more money" but they trust what I'm saying is correct and let me get on with it. How many 'PAT testers' would just do the appliances that plug in and get out asap because it'sa anything for an easy life.

 

[oldtimer]

I think thats why they want to relaunch it because the public,landlord and letting agents are saying O no you aint fooling me its portable only because thats what PAT means.