PAT testing fixed appliances?

[Adam W]

Using the same analogy, a 67p tin of Heinz beans still ticks the same box for being "a tin of beans" as a 14p tin of Asda smart price beans; more customers would be bothered about ticking the box 80% cheaper than they would by having 'not just any oold beans' on their toast.
... And it's the same with PAT testing - most companies get someone in to do it because they have to, not because they're bothered about the safety of their employees. The average facilities manager wouldn't have the first idea about testing portable appliances - they just want the boxes ticked for cheap.

Same reason Ryanair are still in business.

 

[UNG]

We charge £1.95/test..... and still knock out 200 tests a day.. set yourself apart from the competition.

If you're the cheapest, your not necessarily the best...... would you by 5p can of beans, or the 67p can of beans, and is there a difference in quality?

I don't believe anybody on their own could properly test, inspect and document 200 appliances in a day , assuming an 8 hour day it's 2.4 minutes per appliance. The insurance industry seem to accept that by the high indemnity premiums talked about on this forum recently

I set myself apart by not competing in this area PAT just aint worth it if you want to do the job properly

Do you get a better quality of PAT test if the tester eats the more expensive beans?

 

[Liberator]

I'm just saying you have the premium end Market and the low end Market in any sales area. Cars, food, pat testing....

50p a test, 16.7p for the tax man, I'd guess 14 pence for the labels, paper, test certificates, electricity consumption, fuel and marketting if your lucky.

20 pence profit per test isn't a business.

And if u get a client with 4000 tests to be carried out in a week how are you going to pay engineers out of that profit. Oh yeah, that's why the FM companies use me, because I'm still in business.

Landed a job in may for 120,000 tests a year over the next 4 years so I guess some people do like Heinz lol

 

[Adam W]

I don't think anyone here would disagree with you in saying there's something a bit fishy about 50p per test - all you'd really have time to do on that money is pay some kid minimum wage to go around slapping stickers on appliances without doing any form of testing or inspection whatsoever.
This is obviously recklessly irresponsible and could potentially endanger lives, but to someone who doesn't know what they're buying all they can really do is shop around based on price.

Personally I would never dream of operating a company which only does appliance testing, least of all because you'd need to compete for work against people who are cutting corners to drive down the price.

 

[cambria]

My personal view on this is any appliance no matter how big which has a plug on should be PAT tested. If the appliance is wired into a Fused connection unit or switch then to test the appliance would involve safe isolation and dismantling of the connection and I think this is beyond what is required for PAT testing. I would consider such appliances should have IR and earth continuity checked when the fixed wiring of the building is being inspected. Unfortunately this probably doesnt always happen as ithe requirement has not been defined by anybody.
I think the PAT testing market is too cut throat to make serious money and a lot of time is wasted gaining access to the equipment and sometimes even trying to locate it.

 

[UNG]

If the appliance is wired into a Fused connection unit or switch then to test the appliance would involve safe isolation and dismantling of the connection and I think this is beyond what is required for PAT testing. I would consider such appliances should have IR and earth continuity checked when the fixed wiring of the building is being inspected. Unfortunately this probably doesnt always happen as ithe requirement has not been defined by anybody.

I think you will find it has been defined as PAT is only a term given to the broader requirement of "In Service Equipment Inspection and Testing" which also deals with fixed appliances

With regard to testing fixed appliances if this was tested as part of a normal PIR then the frequency of the inspection may be too infrequent to fulfil the maintenance requirements of the HSE

And yet again we come back to the subject of the competant person who can do the job properly and completely

 

[cambria]

Yes fair point! I was thinking about people only qualified to do PAT testing delving into the back of FCUs or switches which is what your last statement aludes too

 

[Krabby Patty!]

Hello, new to this site and VERY new to pat testing….
I have got quite a large pat testing job coming up in the next few days and was trying to get my head around this ‘Testing Fixed Appliances’ but reading the previous posts I am still at a loss?
Am I correct in saying that only being a City & Guilds 2377 qualified I shouldn’t be testing ANY fixed appliance as I shouldn’t be undoing the fixed spur and this should only be tested by a fully qualified electrician.
Many thanks for any help you can offer.
Krabby……

 

[B6 7BU]

Hello, new to this site and VERY new to pat testing….
Krabby……

Have you got a copy of this book?

​

 

[IP2X]

Have just ordered a copy from Amazon. Only £33.25!

 

[Krabby Patty!]

Have you got a copy of this book?

View attachment 3842​

Yes....

 

[B6 7BU]

trying to get my head around this ‘Testing Fixed Appliances’ but reading the previous posts I am still at a loss?
Krabby……

Take a look at page 72

 

[Krabby Patty!]

Take a look at page 72

Thanks for helping, Im on page 72 and i still am not quite getting it....(must be thick) sorry.
Reads...
Equipment that is permanently connected to a flex outlet type can be more readily tested using an insulation / continuity test
Wouldent I have to take off the spur or the appliance to bits to do this?
Sorry to be a pain....
Krabby!

 

[ringer]

If you are thinking you would need to be a qualified electrician to take apart a FCU, and then to refit it, then think again. There is no such thing as a qualified electrician. However, when working on an electrical installation, you do need to be competent to undertake the work involved. But then there is no specific definition of what a competent person is. So I would ask myself this question - "Am I competent to safely isolate the accessory, to confirm that isolation, to then remove the wires from it for testing, and then to reconnect those wires correctly and re-energise the accessory?" If the answer is a confident "Yes" then there will be no problem. It would help if you had any sort of formal training in wiring electrical accessories, but is not entirely necessary.
The next questions to address are a) do you have appropriate test equipment/adaptors for this work? and b) have you priced the job accordingly (this operation will take far longer than with equipment connected with a normal plugtop)?

 

[Krabby Patty!]

That’s really good information and help.
Nail on head!
Yes I was worried that I needed to be a qualified electrician to remove the spurs to test etc and didn’t want to take them off for some ‘raincoat’ to tell me that I shouldn’t be doing it that and needed to be a qualified electrician.
I’m happy isolating them and completing the actual testing job in hand and fully appreciate your advice regarding the extra time needed to complete the testing.
Kind regards to all.

Krabby !

 

[UNG]

That’s really good information and help.
Nail on head!
Yes I was worried that I needed to be a qualified electrician to remove the spurs to test etc and didn’t want to take them off for some ‘raincoat’ to tell me that I shouldn’t be doing it that and needed to be a qualified electrician.
I’m happy isolating them and completing the actual testing job in hand and fully appreciate your advice regarding the extra time needed to complete the testing.
Kind regards to all.

Krabby !

I suppose removing them is one thing but can you replace them correctly?!! which would be the more critical part of the testing procedure and more likely to compromise the safety of the appliance and installation in the long term

 

[Krabby Patty!]

Yes, thanks for asking...

 

[oldtimer]

If you are thinking you would need to be a qualified electrician to take apart a FCU, and then to refit it, then think again. There is no such thing as a qualified electrician. However, when working on an electrical installation, you do need to be competent to undertake the work involved. But then there is no specific definition of what a competent person is. So I would ask myself this question - "Am I competent to safely isolate the accessory, to confirm that isolation, to then remove the wires from it for testing, and then to reconnect those wires correctly and re-energise the accessory?" If the answer is a confident "Yes" then there will be no problem. It would help if you had any sort of formal training in wiring electrical accessories, but is not entirely necessary.
The next questions to address are a) do you have appropriate test equipment/adaptors for this work? and b) have you priced the job accordingly (this operation will take far longer than with equipment connected with a normal plugtop)?

I Hate to rain on anybodys parade but I was told at the college that you have to be a fully qualified electrician to open up a FCU to PAT test a fixed appliance I think thats why they are having to review because fixed equipment falls under the realms of II&TEE and they are being ignored plus dont look for a filler course to allow you to do this if you are PAT trained only.

 

[ohreally]

To muddy already murky waters, the learning lounge- part two PAT testing; items to be tested, informs us that built in equipment is not expected to be tested during a PA test but to be tested during a periodic inspection and test.

Sends shivers down my back as I got overdosed on Dave during 2382 and 2391.

 

[oldtimer]

To muddy already murky waters, the learning lounge- part two PAT testing; items to be tested, informs us that built in equipment is not expected to be tested during a PA test but to be tested during a periodic inspection and test.

Sends shivers down my back as I got overdosed on Dave during 2382 and 2391.

Listen they can say what hey want but PAT testing fixed appliances comes under ISI&TEE as it says in the COPs I am not saying it cannot be done but it cannot be included in the PIR/EICR so cost will have to come into it plus companies who do I&T will have to get tooled up for ISI&TEE (formally PAT) and who is to stipulate this gets done in other words you say to a customer I can do your EICR but there will be an extra charge to PAT test your fixed appliances me thinks the answer will be dont bother I just want an EICR so I will go elsewhere