PAT testing fixed appliances?

[davidadams170]

I think that the person undertaking PAT testing must be competent to inspect & test an electrical appliance in order to determine if it is safe to use based on the inspection and test results. Training will be required and must cover the following areas:

• Identification of equipment types
• Appropriate test procedures
• Frequency of inspection & testing
• Visual inspection
• Correct use of test instruments
• Record keeping.The person responsible for repairing any faulty equipment must be trained and competent to do so. Equipment must be re-tested following the repair and record kept of the repair.An appliance of less than 18kg in mass that is intended to be moved whilst in operation or an appliance which can easily be moved from one place to another, e.g. vacuum cleaner, toaster, food mixer, etc.This equipment or an appliance which is fastened to a support or otherwise secured in a specific location, e.g. bathroom heater

 

[oldtimer]

David i think you are telling us what we already know the nub of the question is why is fixed appliances being ignored because guys who are PAT testers only and not electricians cannot test them but at the same time there is no direction to tell people to test them ie PAT is for portable only when its ISI&TEE

 

[ohreally]

nub of the question is why is fixed appliances being ignored because guys who are PAT testers only and not electricians cannot test them

Perhaps. Consider the issues of competence, qualifications and training are addressed and met - could the real reason simply be its too time consuming. For one, I don't rush through jobs; I take as much time as necessary to complete the job to my satisfaction, making up adaptors and things like that if i don't have them, to permit testing to be completed properly. Would a national organisation allow their testers to have a work rate of 50-100 tests per day - I think we all know the answer to that, and I suspect this is mainly where the problems lies.

Of course there will also be an element who are unaware of the testing procedure for anything beyond a plugtop test.

 

[oldtimer]

No actually the "industry" knows it has a problem because PAT gives the impression that it is portable appliances only the only problem is that an EICR covers the fixed wiring only the COP ISI&TEE formally PAT is meant to cover portable and fixed equipment testing the only thing is that they are quite happy to train the non electrician to do PAT but now fixed appliances are banging on the door I asked the college lecturer who was giving the In Service Ispection & Testing of Electrical Equipment can you not just give these guys a course on how to test fixed appliances and the reply was NO it just cannot be done plus they need to relaunch PAT to ISI&TEE because fixed appliances are being ignored and as he put it the industry can no longer brush it off.

So Fixed appliances is and will be a hot topic in the near future

 

[ohreally]

So ultimately, where do we end up? Descent sparks are unlikely to embrace appliance testing all day, and a black hole awaits in terms of non-electricians continuing to body swerve fixed appliances either through ignorance/ lack of experience/ competence.

Given BS EN62638 is only a few weeks away, has anyone seen a preview?

 

[oldtimer]

Speaking to the college lecturer who seems to be on a better forum than us they need to deal with this and look at it this way we are in the middle of the worst economical crisis and these clowns decide they need to shake things up to keep themselves in a job a bit like BGB Onsite guide EICR. I think a compromise will be reached where big "PAT" companies will have to have an in house spark for fixed appliances as they will not sanction PAT guys to do it. So why not ignore it well insurance thats the problem PAT guys for PAT but not FA. But again with all these Schemies who will be left to roll out a ISI&TEE (PAT relaunch) so no doubt ESC will have to do it.

 

[Tonkatoy27]

Say you got called into an office to test the appliances and only did the portable ones that plugged into your tester. Then some poor lady got a belt off the toilet hand drier and you hadn't tested it because it hasn't got a plug on it. Who do you think would be at fault? The client because they asked you to 'PAT' test or you who didn't satisy the criterior of the testing guidance notes?

I test portables with a Seaward Primetest 300 at a rate of around £2 per item give or take depending on the amount. 50p or similar does not allow time for a comprehensive test.
Then I test fixed appliances with an MFT at an hourly rate. (divided by the minutes taken as on a holiday cottage it might just be the boiler and it's a bit unfair of me to charge a minimum hour or whatever)

I cannot understand why PAT tester do not include fixed appliances in their testing when they require the same testing. What am I saying, of course I can, either they do not have an MFT, or do not know how to do manual tests, or cannot be bothered as it requires more effort than pushing a plug in, pressing start and daydreaming.

I'm also soooooo hacked off qwith constantly getting undercut by people doing half the job I do. I'm lucky the local schools value quality.

 

[UNG]

Say you got called into an office to test the appliances and only did the portable ones that plugged into your tester. Then some poor lady got a belt off the toilet hand drier and you hadn't tested it because it hasn't got a plug on it. Who do you think would be at fault? The client because they asked you to 'PAT' test or you who didn't satisy the criterior of the testing guidance notes?

Using the same scenario but the client asked for In Service Inspection & Test of the Electrical Equipment how many of these PAT testing outfits would actually do it or know what it was and more to the point correctly advise the client

There is ignorance on both sides of this coin the customer is not fully aware of his / her obligations under the law and is frightened into this testing by the penalties if something goes wrong and the testers don't advise the customer as to how they meet the regulations because a lot of them don't know themselves

You mention the use of testers and meters in your post and at 50p / appliance how many appliances are ever connected to one

There has been too much quick training throughout the electrical industry in the last few years and the large number of career changers that it has attracted based on big advertised earnings have diluted the knowledge level and no allowance has been made for the lack of in depth knowledge this type of training achieves or the duty of care that the customer expects from the person they are contracting their work to really screws Part P and a lot of other regs introduced to promote and improve safety

 

[Tonkatoy27]

Using the same scenario but the client asked for In Service Inspection & Test of the Electrical Equipment how many of these PAT testing outfits would actually do it or know what it was and more to the point correctly advise the client

There is ignorance on both sides of this coin the customer is not fully aware of his / her obligations under the law and is frightened into this testing by the penalties if something goes wrong and the testers don't advise the customer as to how they meet the regulations because a lot of them don't know themselves

You mention the use of testers and meters in your post and at 50p / appliance how many appliances are ever connected to one

There has been too much quick training throughout the electrical industry in the last few years and the large number of career changers that it has attracted based on big advertised earnings have diluted the knowledge level and no allowance has been made for the lack of in depth knowledge this type of training achieves or the duty of care that the customer expects from the person they are contracting their work to really screws Part P and a lot of other regs introduced to promote and improve safety

Exactly. If I have a new customer asking for PAT testing then I explain that it includes the neccassary fixed appliance testing and the the charges it incurrs. I've never had a query other than the obligitory, "oh for christs sake, more money" but they trust what I'm saying is correct and let me get on with it. How many 'PAT testers' would just do the appliances that plug in and get out asap because it'sa anything for an easy life.

 

[oldtimer]

I think thats why they want to relaunch it because the public,landlord and letting agents are saying O no you aint fooling me its portable only because thats what PAT means.

 

[BigBreakfast]

Is there a timeframe for re-launch Oldtimer? Can only see it creating some more work for the qualified spark with luck!

 

[oldtimer]

BB I tend to agree this lecturer feeds into to a consultation group but I think they all do up here in Scotland remember we never got involved with Part p or the mad rush to certify people after 5 weeks Most of the sparks I know served their time and are registered with the SJIB plus the majority of training up here is been done by the technical colleges although Select and NICEIC are getting into the act but to be honest Select were charging £220 for a 1 day 2377 PAT course where the college are charging £190.00p for a 6 week nightclass C&G course and people who are doing it for themselves use this way where companies send their guys to the Schemies for a quick wham bang theres your cert son.

So anyway as you do on the course you ask questions ie why is it I am having to tool up for PAT and get a C&G certificate when I know it will be a loss leader for me because people are brainwashed ie landlords,public & letting agents that you only test things with a plug on it. Yes comes the reply there is a feeling that the plot has been lost on the PAT industry and it needs to get sorted with regards to time intervils fixed equipment ect. Yes I noticed that I could not sign up for a PAT course but instead I found it under ISI&TEE (formally PAT) so somethings up. Yes well spotted came the reply PAT needs to get relaunched but we cannot sanction PAT testers doing fixed appliances and we cannot ignore fixed appliances.

Now this was November 2011 and in February the HSE said they were doing a review at the same time the minister for business said PAT was an excessive burden on business and this would have to change so far HSE said there is no reason in some environments to do PAT testing every year and the industry needed tidied up so they commissioned a report and are now in the process of reviewing it. So for me yes I think this will give sparks a better incentive to have ISI&TEE as one of their services as I see rental property going to 2 year testing including fixed appliances but HMOs could stay yearly now thats my opinion and if you have been reading the EICR debacle on rental properties no government are going to push more cost and regulation onto business ie landlords / letting agents who we think are the majority of the sector but no there is the big social housing and local council housing groups who would be affected one example was my late mum she had to pay £5 extra a month because they supplied a washing machine that had to be PAT tested once a year but she also had 2 storage heaters and an immersion,electric shower that under the new COPs would have to be tested.

Just to add if a landlord is paying £50 a year to PAT test then moving it to 2 yearly with fixed appliances for say £75 well that sorts out the problem they get fixed appliances included and the cost for the landlord drops to £37.50 a year happy days

 

[oldtimer]

View attachment indg236.pdf

There you go have a read

 

[BigBreakfast]

Cheers for that Oldtimer,

I too see that not everything requires tested every year but one example I came across was in my room at travel lodge when I was at Elex in Manchester there.

I noticed the test labels and the one on the kettle had a two year span between test! Now if I had been testing that appliance in that situ, I would take into account the number of possible users and frequency of handling and use and I would have put a yearly re-test date on it.

 

[oldtimer]

Yep nice to see HSE being as clear as mud

 

[BigBreakfast]

Clarity is sadly lacking a lot of the time Oldtimer, things could be made a lot clearer with fewer variables .

 

[Adam W]

It looks like what they've tried to do there is to clarify 'common sense' which as we all know in reality isn't that common.
For example basic user checks such as telling the boss if you have to 'wiggle the lead' on an appliance or if a flex has become frayed, could be done more easily and effectively in a small office with a handful of employees, eg going down the shop and buying a replacement, rather than in a large office where employees are told not to attempt any kind of maintenance in case the company get sued, and employees might be put off reporting defective appliances for fear that the time taken by facilities to order a replacement will cause too much inconvenience.
This could well be 'self-policing' as smaller companies are less likely to be able to afford a dedicated health and safety rep.
These user checks could be far more effective than paying someone 50p to slap on a sticker every year.

 

[oldtimer]

The thing is we need clear definition and guidance to clear out the chancers and as always I smel hot fudge which is nice with ice cream but not when we are trying to get some clear rules in PAT testing

 

[Risteard]

I noticed the test labels and the one on the kettle had a two year span between test! Now if I had been testing that appliance in that situ, I would take into account the number of possible users and frequency of handling and use and I would have put a yearly re-test date on it.

On the flipside I've seen labels for equipment being used on Construction sites with a one-year retest date label on them when the Code of Practice recommends a maximum of 3 months between Combined Inspections and Tests! "Once a year" seems to be (wrongly) stuck in peoples' heads.

 

[BigBreakfast]

On the flipside I've seen labels for equipment being used on Construction sites with a one-year retest date label on them when the Code of Practice recommends a maximum of 3 months between Combined Inspections and Tests! "Once a year" seems to be (wrongly) stuck in peoples' heads.

I have no timeframe stuck in my head, I take each item and where it is and it's use and make my decision on that . Instead of digging at me for my choice of retest of something that I have seen you could have just agreed that not everyone is following accepted testing procedure.