'powdering' of alternator belts...

[Pants]

I thought my old alternator was toast (after all, it was 15 years old), but a brand new one is doing exactly the same thing: the belt is snug (and only a month old), but my system is barely charging, or not charging at all, but the belt is squealing and heating up the pulley at moderate RPM, as if it's really working hard...and leaving a steady accumulation of belt-powder around the general vicinity. I replaced the old belt recently because it had become too worn to put tension on it within the confines of the adjustment. My voltage never gets above 12.8-ish. Brand new battery - a few days old - still starts fine, but is not getting charged much if at all. Ign lite either dims, or stays on full brightness, regardless of RPM. There's no visible drop in headlight brightness when the engine is switched off.

But from the squeal and heating of the pulley, it's like the alternator is being taxed heavily, the charge being dissipated in some invisible load-bank. I've retensioned the belt a number of times, and each time am greeted with more squealing. And no, it's not OVERtightened, either. So where's all that energy GOING?

Since I can't think what else to do, I'd like to make temporary bypass connection/s to the new alternator, now in the car, so as not to assume anything about my existing wiring. I've always run the previous alt (this one's a Lucas 45A replacement for 16ACR and 17ACR) on two wires only, and this model has only two connections (see photo)

so it should be simple to test in situ. Can someone please confirm, then, that to test the basic functions, I might wire/test as follows:

1) run either fat (wide quick-disconnect lugs) brown lead to +12VDC
2) run small brown/yel lead, connected through an auto test-light, to +12VDC

Testing:

a) with power in place as above, and engine not running, test light should be ON.
b) with engine running - and perhaps RPM revved up and then kept up a bit above idle - test light should dim and go out, and voltage on fat brown lead should be somewhere in the range of, say, 13.5-14.5V
c) With belt snug (about 1/2" up/down play with pressure from thumb on belt), no squealing should be heard.

What else could be the problem?

 

[jon small]

before going to the trouble of running temporary wiring etc first check earth strap connections to body and engine and battery connections as this sounds like a high resistance at one of the connection points.try a jump lead from battery earth to alt casing.
if you try the temporary wiring set up also run a lead from earth terminal of battery to the alternator body as some alternator mountings have rubber bushes and need an earth fly lead and have come even across solid mountings that had a poor connection to engine block,
good luck and let us know how you get on - jon

 

[Ib≤In≤Iz]

I would be investigating the squealing first tbh, check all the pulleys/bearings are ok. Is it tensioned correctly?

 

[ifindoubtdont]

It sounds very much like you have a seized or out of line pulley somewhere, as Ib says check all the pulleys and bearings first.

 

[telectrix]

years ago, had similar problem. a new belt got chewed up in 2 days. seized bearing on a pulley.

 

[Pants]

Thanks, guys...I'm going to go flog away at this some more later today...
(jon small): I was thinking along the same lines about grounding/earthing, but I get less than an ohm resistance from alt case to ground strap (to the stranded copper itself, which runs directly to the battery in the boot), and there's no hesitation or laboring while starting...so testing and the starter-motor seem to be telling me that battery connections are both OK. Still, it's an easy check, so I'll try that, as well as the direct-to-alt grounding. There are no visible insulators on the alt, though, and the resistance to ground-strap as I mentioned is almost nil.

Belt/pulley issues? This couldn't be a simpler setup - it's on a 1960 Austin mini - and so the belt touches only the crank, water-pump, and alt. The water-pump spins freely and runs as true as could be required of a belt-drive component (I've checked it twice while futzing with the belt, something I've done many times now). Aside from belt-squealing/powdering (note the powdering is definitely not from any bearing) the other symptom is the heating: it takes but 30 seconds of squealing-belt operation at, say, 2500RPM, for the alternator-pulley (and ONLY the alt pulley) to be uncomfortably warm to the touch. Yes, the pulley alignment is slightly off, by perhaps 1/16" (for some reason the new alt had different geometry and my attempts to shim were not quite perfect), but rather than focus on this side concern, it's more of concern to me that this is EXACTLY the same behavior as with the previous alternator: squealing, intermittent charging leading to no charging, powder buildup, eventually a loose belt needing to be replaced because there's no more adjustment range.

As for over/under-tightening of belt: 1) overtightening wouldn't cause squealing, nor such immediate overheating (nor was the belt overly tight); 2) if I'd indeed actually overzealously tightened the belt on some occasion, it wasn't that way the next, since squealing + heat yield rubber-powder + loose belt. This is the second belt/alternator that have done this on the same car - thankfully not my daily driver - since November.

Wits end on near horizon.

More on that previous alternator: not that I trust one of our ('yankee,' but Hawaiian-style) auto-parts shops to accurately test a Lucas alternator, but I brought the old one in to my standby domestic parts shop yesterday, and...yep, they say it's good. Chances of a false POSITIVE in that test seem small to me, but I will take it to a specialty rebuilder to test before I make a conclusion.

One way or another I will fix this and post back - please let me know of any other inspirations.

 

[ruston]

Have you converted this Mini from a dynamo?

 

[Pants]

Have you converted this Mini from a dynamo?

Yes, but that was in about...1982...? Been running on a Lucas rebuilt alt for many years since then - only recently replaced due to still-present problem.

--Dave

 

[ruston]

Yes, but that was in about...1982...? Been running on a Lucas rebuilt alt for many years since then - only recently replaced due to still-present problem.

--Dave

Is the pulley new with the new alternator ? If not check that the Vee is not coated with burnt belt, this will cause the belt to slip and squeal.

 

[R G]

Another thought , is the pulley from the old dynamo , it could be the pulley itself needs to be a larger diameter , this would allow less strain on the belt I'm sure ...

 

[mache]

Although you have the right tension is the belt sitting correctly in the pulleys. I.e. needs to be sitting up in the Vee. If it's anywhere close to sitting at the base then the pulleys themselves are worn and will result in slipping, excessive heat and premature belt wear.

 

[ruston]

Although you have the right tension is the belt sitting correctly in the pulleys. I.e. needs to be sitting up in the Vee. If it's anywhere close to sitting at the base then the pulleys themselves are worn and will result in slipping, excessive heat and premature belt wear.

All good points. The pulley condition is very important.

 

[PEG]

Most points have already been covered,but if other components in drive are OK,does belt size (width A,B,Z etc) match ALL the pulleys?

If voltage is as you suggest,it will not be charging,therefore not be under load.

Also,check charge lamp,this will be about 2.2 W,from memory,and is matched to the field coils on your alternator. If polarity,and grounding is OK,it could be a rogue unit....happens,especially from budget re-manufacturers :icon12:

 

[Marvo]

This sounds like one of those chicken and egg scenarios where probably a belt has worn and started slipping which made excessive wear on one or more of the pulley wheels. The worn pulley then causes belt slip even with a new belt which prematurely wears the new belt which further wears the wheel and so on.

Chances are if one pulley is worn they all will be but the smallest pulley will have the most pronounced wear. If you can get replacement pulley wheels at a reasonable price I'd replace all three at this stage in the game or get down your local scrap yard and vernier a few second hand ones before you buy them.

The power required to drive the alternator will be relative to the current it's supplying into the battery or electrical system. First get a brand new belt and run the alternator disconnected and see if it still squeals or whether excessive heat is produced in one of the pulley wheels. It's important to work with a new belt because if you've burned the running surfaces of the old one it will squeal regardless of high or low loading. As already stated check the new belt is seated at the right height in the groove of all the pulley wheels, if it's low on one of them then replace it before it damages the new belt.

 

[ruston]

This sounds like one of those chicken and egg scenarios where probably a belt has worn and started slipping which made excessive wear on one or more of the pulley wheels. The worn pulley then causes belt slip even with a new belt which prematurely wears the new belt which further wears the wheel and so on.

Chances are if one pulley is worn they all will be but the smallest pulley will have the most pronounced wear. If you can get replacement pulley wheels at a reasonable price I'd replace all three at this stage in the game or get down your local scrap yard and vernier a few second hand ones before you buy them.

The power required to drive the alternator will be relative to the current it's supplying into the battery or electrical system. First get a brand new belt and run the alternator disconnected and see if it still squeals or whether excessive heat is produced in one of the pulley wheels. It's important to work with a new belt because if you've burned the running surfaces of the old one it will squeal regardless of high or low loading. As already stated check the new belt is seated at the right height in the groove of all the pulley wheels, if it's low on one of them then replace it before it damages the new belt.

That little car will be worth a lump of cash. It's worth spending a bit of cash on to do it right.

He might have a bit of a chew getting parts for it where he is.

 

[Marvo]

Didn't realise he was stateside. He'd probably be better to join an owners club, they're invariable able to supply spares and expertise and I'm sure there'd be more than one of them in the US.

 

[ruston]

Didn't realise he was stateside. He'd probably be better to join an owners club, they're invariable able to supply spares and expertise and I'm sure there'd be more than one of them in the US.

Yes there are plenty owners clubs over here . That car will be one of the first Mini's , I would like to see a picture of it.

The starter button will be between the seats, be worth a fortune here.

 

[Pants]

Thanks all, belt isn't sitting at bottom of the pulleys, though with all the powder being generated, you'd think it quite possibly so.

Question: when I set this up in 2000 with the now-dead alternator, I retrofitted an LED/resistor in lieu of the basic charge-light, since I don't have a standard speedo with a charge light at all. That LED setup worked fine for 14 years (six of them with my last battery). Is there any reason that would change with this replacement alternator? That is, is there any electrical "need" for the voltage-drop across the typical incandescent charge-light, vs my setup, which has some some forgotten small dropping-resistor to protect the LED, and no "filament?" I've always thought the charge-light is simply a diagnostic/alert item, and in a pinch the small lead can be hot-wired, but perhaps that's not a safe assumption.

I re-tested yesterday in situ, and again, found nothing wrong with basic setup - really no reason to run separate connections to test it. But this time, I ran my ammeter directly to the small terminal to see what kind of current might be flowing there, at about 1500RPM - something less than an amp, as close as I can say. But as soon as my probe made contact, there was a soft, but noticeable hum..as if the diodes had suddenly decided to kick in, even though the normal connection is in place? I swapped over to DC volts and got 14.5V off of the system.

Too soon for cheering. Walking around to the driver's seat, the charge light glowed brightly. I revved it up, and...no change. Went back to the bonnet side, put my leads on, and...back to 12.5V, the basic battery voltage, even at 2500RPM.

I hope I'm not missing something, but as of that, I've concluded it's a dud alternator, even if new.

Another thing on the belt-squeal: it NEVER squeals when I have the alternator plug pulled out, therefore I tend to think the squeal is from electro-mechanical loading, not loose/tight/misaligned pulley. Still, I've readjusted tension, yet again, after taking out extra shims that were first put in to deal with a slight crookedness that seemed to appear after installation and testing. Shimming alone can't deal with it, since once bolted up solid, if you're looking for it, you can detect that the alt axis isn't quite parallel with WP or crank...my only guess there is that the alt case was screwed together such that the pivots are shifted off-axis, though it bothers me that it didn't appear so when I first mounted it...so now I am wondering if the case is actually loose, and has 'wandered' a bit since I installed it.

I'm trying to get the seller to send me a replacement, in any case...how much time can one spend trying to replace an alternator, after all?

 

[Barry White]

Quick question a 1960s mini would have been +ve earth from memory have you changed the battery recently or charged it and fitted it the "wrong way" sounds such a simple mistake but the battery is in the boot away from the engine and the original clamps if still there will be marked in reverse of what they should be. all but a few alternaters on cars are -ve earth (heard +ve exist on old cars but I have never seen one)
If indeed this is the case the rectifier pack will be burned out or shorted on both the old and new unit. causing the load on the pulley you describe.

 

[Pants]

Good observation; you're right about the original +earth setup, but this one is far from original...in fact, it's a fiberglass body that's identical (well, mostly) to the original, so my battery leads (both) run all the way from the boot to the front, where I had to ensure that everything got a negative as well as positive connection where required. But no changes in that setup since 2000, and no starting problems, etc, so I'd say that's the wrong tree.