Ring vs Radial

[kingeri]

I wish they'd make 4mm T&E with a 2.5mm CPC. It would then become much more useful!

 

[MarkieSparkie]

here in ireland the last time i met an ecssa inspector he advised me to stay away from using ring circuits as it was going to be changed down the line in the near future so i always go with radials from then on

Don't hold your breath mate or limit yourself to just radials. I was told similar when I was an impressionable apprentice 35+ years ago! :wheelchair:

 

[bigspark17]

i have to agree with chris... joe bloggs comes along to put a chrome socket on the 1st socket on a radial, messes up the earths and you loose your cpc to the rest of the sockets.. they still work but no cpc protection to all his appliances.!! untill he gets his house periodically checks next (which he obviously will).!!! If you can plan your route out well before starting your ring final usually you wouldnt have to use that much more cable..

 

[imago]

I agree with all the posters who have shown up the potential faults for both rings and radials, they are all possible as are the resulting issues.

However, I don't think anyone should design an installation (or part of one) based on how someone could mess it up by fiddling around with it either in ignorance or when incompetent. The only considerations in that vein should be given to potential users and uses, not some idiot with a screwdriver. It's part of the human condition that some people will mess about where they shouldn't, some will be lucky, some won't. As long as all the professionals involved have done their job properly then all is well IMHO.

Design and planning is about selecting the correct methods and materials for the intended purpose. Radials, rings, and combinations of the two are all available to use. It's up to the designer and installer to select what he or she thinks is best suited to the situation in front of them, then use that.

 

[Guitarist]

Design and planning is about selecting the correct methods and materials for the intended purpose. Radials, rings, and combinations of the two are all available to use. It's up to the designer and installer to select what he or she thinks is best suited to the situation in front of them, then use that.

You've hit the nail on the head there. So many people are coming into the profession now with very little training that although they know how to connect a radial or RFC, many won't actually understand the maths behind it all, let alone have the experience to tailor each install to individual design criteria. Not necessarily having a correct or incorrect way to do something is both a strength and a weakness.

 

[hermetic]

Bit of a silly argument really, as there are no advantages whatever for radial circuits, ("they take less time to wire" is NOT an advantage!) and they are just as prone to the broken conductor problem (which, if done properly, is "not at all") the vast majority of the housing stock in this country was rewired for the first time between about 1960 and 1980. they were all wired with 13amp sockets and ring mains under the IEE regs which stated "any number of sockets on a ring and any number of sockets on a spur so long as the number of sockets on spurs does not exceed the number of sockets on the ring, and the whole does not exceed a floorspace of 100 sq M." the vast majority of these houses are wired in T/E pvc cables, and will not be rewired in the foreseeable future, hence the downturn in work we have all experienced in the last 10-20 years. These ring mains have been reliable and safe. Indeed, as you can read on the safety socket cover campaign thread, we have the safest electrical system in Europe. Harmonization with the EEC is a stupid exercise as anyone who has traveled through the EEC countries will have experienced the vastly inferior kit and wiring systems they have used which are truly "out of the ark" Trying to bring in dubious regulations that require good efficient and safe installations to be removed in some sort of EEC/government job creation scheme will not work. Regs are not retroactive.

 

[Guitarist]

My in-laws have just got home from a holiday in Greece (we picked them up from the airport). Anyway, the first thing my Father-in-law wanted to show me were some photos of the shocking (literally) wiring over there.
There is one where a row of lamp posts all have the bottom access hatch removed and the wires are hanging out. The lamps still work, but it appears people may have been "tapping in" to them.
If we're all supposed to be "harmonised", why is it that it's only us that bothers doing as we're told?

 

[ipf]

My in-laws have just got home from a holiday in Greece (we picked them up from the airport). Anyway, the first thing my Father-in-law wanted to show me were some photos of the shocking (literally) wiring over there.
There is one where a row of lamp posts all have the bottom access hatch removed and the wires are hanging out. The lamps still work, but it appears people may have been "tapping in" to them.
If we're all supposed to be "harmonised", why is it that it's only us that bothers doing as we're told?

It must be a question of the economy, you know how hard it's been in Greece. I wouldn't worry about it. The way things are going here, economy and tradesmen wise, we'll probably 'harmonise' with them and it'll be the same here in a few years.

 

[Adam W]

There is one where a row of lamp posts all have the bottom access hatch removed and the wires are hanging out. The lamps still work, but it appears people may have been "tapping in" to them.

Somebody recently posted a link to the government site which stated ESQCR, which clearly stated tapping off lamp posts is illegal.
I don't know if ESQCR is purely British law or a European law, but it's quite clear that people shouldn't be doing that.
How it is policed is a different matter -if you did that here you'd probably get a couple of meat wagons round and probably get a stretch, but it seems in Greece anything goes, which could explain why their economy is so fusked.

 

[Guitarist]

It must be a question of the economy, you know how hard it's been in Greece. I wouldn't worry about it. The way things are going here, economy and tradesmen wise, we'll probably 'harmonise' with them and it'll be the same here in a few years.

I'm told that it's always been like that, and that nobody seems to care out there. Must be the cold, damp weather that makes the British so ---- about everything (me included).

 

[MarkieSparkie]

Somebody recently posted a link to the government site which stated ESQCR, which clearly stated tapping off lamp posts is illegal.
I don't know if ESQCR is purely British law or a European law, but it's quite clear that people shouldn't be doing that.
How it is policed is a different matter -if you did that here you'd probably get a couple of meat wagons round and probably get a stretch, but it seems in Greece anything goes, which could explain why their economy is so fusked.

ESQCR is UK statutory law only.

 

[Adam W]

ESQCR is UK statutory law only.

That's what I thought, but surely there must be some Greek/European equivalent prohibiting people from going around tapping off lamp posts? It seems like common sense.

 

[amo]

I would use both but 9 out of 10 times use a ring just to make sure the install is future proof in case of extra appliances and electrical equipment :bucktooth:

 

[Guitarist]

That's what I thought, but surely there must be some Greek/European equivalent prohibiting people from going around tapping off lamp posts? It seems like common sense.

There are laws in this Country which should be upheld, but sadly it seems down to whatever people seem to make the most fuss about... Maybe the Greeks simply don't care.

 

[ipf]

It's all Greek to me !

 

[amlu]

when diy installer mess up the ring it is still going to work. like 2 overloaded radials fed from 32a mcb

 

[Fin170]

when diy installer mess up the ring it is still going to work. like 2 overloaded radials fed from 32a mcb

Don't worry, part p will stop the DIYer messing with the electrics

 

[Knobhead]

Do I detect a hint of sarcasm?

 

[Guitarist]

Part P has definitely made a difference to the Landlord scene. They know that they can't have any old odd-job-man change their CU now (not easily anyway), so there's one benefit.

 

[Engineer54]

when diy installer mess up the ring it is still going to work. like 2 overloaded radials fed from 32a mcb

Why may i ask, are you considering something that may or may not happen by an untrained person?? Your responsibilities stop at the circuit(s) in question, being designed and installed in accordance with BS7671...

 

[sedgy34]

My in-laws have just got home from a holiday in Greece (we picked them up from the airport). Anyway, the first thing my Father-in-law wanted to show me were some photos of the shocking (literally) wiring over there.
There is one where a row of lamp posts all have the bottom access hatch removed and the wires are hanging out. The lamps still work, but it appears people may have been "tapping in" to them.
If we're all supposed to be "harmonised", why is it that it's only us that bothers doing as we're told?

its because of that thing we have called HSE and the scam providers use the safety card every year in consultations with the government to justify there exhistences

 

[vjsmarwick]

I like the ring circuit for its current carrying capabilities but from a safety aspect radials have to win !! If a fault comes on a ring after commissioned it can hide and be dangerous because its fed from both ends but radial it's instantly obvious.

 

[hermetic]

its because of that thing we have called HSE and the scam providers use the safety card every year in consultations with the government to justify there exhistences

No it's not, it is because electricians used to be properly trained to do a good job, time will show that the scams actually will drive standards down, and one day ALL electricians will be five week wonders!

 

[hermetic]

I like the ring circuit for its current carrying capabilities but from a safety aspect radials have to win !! If a fault comes on a ring after commissioned it can hide and be dangerous because its fed from both ends but radial it's instantly obvious.

Faults do not "come" onto ring circuits or radial circuits, they are caused! It is up to us as professionals to install properly, and use good equipment and materials. A fault caused by diy tinkering is another matter entirely, and applies to all circuits anyway. I have seen diy that was the equal of the best quality installs, and much work by so called tradesmen that I would have sacked on the spot for! In my experience the fault you are talking about on ring circuits is down not to broken conductors, but conductors not installed into terminals properly and TIGHT! that is down to US, not the circuit format.
phil

 

[sedgy34]

No it's not, it is because electricians used to be properly trained to do a good job, time will show that the scams actually will drive standards down, and one day ALL electricians will be five week wonders!

yes it is :joker:

 

[vjsmarwick]

Hermetic I can see your point but you missed mine completely.
The somewhat simple point I was making is a fault in a radial circuit becomes obvious almost instantly but a fault in a ring circuit does not irrespective of who's fault. It could be someone hanging a picture that puts a screw or nail in to a cable that could just catch the mitral and break it not all electrical faults are done by people working on a circuit.
In my 28 years I have seen many faults but also through time cables become slack in fittings and this is why they are slowly bringing in push fits. I am sure you have gone to fittings where you have taken them off the wall and there is a wire slack it's caused by natural expanding and shrinking of the metal nothing we can do about that but I do understand it does not happen over night.

 

[hermetic]

yes it is :joker:

oooooohhh no it Isn't

• :joker:
  

 

[hermetic]

Hermetic I can see your point but you missed mine completely.
The somewhat simple point I was making is a fault in a radial circuit becomes obvious almost instantly but a fault in a ring circuit does not irrespective of who's fault. It could be someone hanging a picture that puts a screw or nail in to a cable that could just catch the mitral and break it not all electrical faults are done by people working on a circuit.
In my 28 years I have seen many faults but also through time cables become slack in fittings and this is why they are slowly bringing in push fits. I am sure you have gone to fittings where you have taken them off the wall and there is a wire slack it's caused by natural expanding and shrinking of the metal nothing we can do about that but I do understand it does not happen over night.

Fair comment, but I do not agree that terminals loosen that much over time, we were taught to tighten terminal screws till the brass "squeaked", if you did that on most modern fittings the screws would strip or break because the tolerance on the threads is a lot wider than it used to be, metric cables have not helped either (but there's no going back now!) we also had to twist the cables together before inserting into the terminal, which not only reduces the tendency for the screw to force it's way between the cores (solid or stranded) it also has the effect of hardening the copper. I have seen comments on this site saying that twisting cores together in sockets is a pet hate of some sparks, as it makes separation and testing harder! How times have changed. Another fault causer is not leaving cables long enough in the box, there is enough room, even in a shallow box to run the stripped cores to one end, then fold them back and loop them into the socket front. This also was considered good practice. The one thing that can be said in part P's favour is that it does put cables more out of harms way, and makes such positioning compulsory. If I can be boring and again hark back to my college days in the early seventies, we were taught this back then as good practice!. The problem with part P seems to me that although WE know where the safety( danger!!) zones are, there seems to have been little effort made to make householders aware that if there is a socket etc. below, there is probably a cable above, so the risk of nailing is just as great. It should be made clear to all that it is up to us to inform and educate on this.
Phil.

 

[vjsmarwick]

Like you I was always told to twist the wires and to leave plenty in the boxes because you never know when you might be called back to fix a fault in them and if its too short it's our own fault
But I have found that folding the ends over individually is better because the modern screws as you rightly say are poor quality and tend to have square edges that cut and brake the wire more easily than the rounded ended ones did and many times I have seen the poor old earth wire spring out as you are about to fit the faceplate it seems to have reduced with folding the ends.
Bring back the good old days because from what I can see some of our rules are being slackened to come inline with the EU we did have the best safety in the world for electrics why change it.
This does not mean I am not in favour of rcds because I am they are great but for ever changing rules back and forth earthing relaxed why there wasn't a problem before but now so many changes its hard to know which rule is in force when and for how long.
When I was a kid I thought all we had to do was screw a switch on the wall and it worked !! Trouble is some of the architects still think that way and have no idea of the problems their little mark on a drawing can cause !
I am sure we have all looked at drawings and thought what the hell ? We have to work together and show them our work is a skill not something just anyone can do.

 

[hermetic]

"some of our rules are being slackened to come inline with the EU we did have the best safety in the world for electrics why change it."


How right you are!

Read more: http://www.electriciansforums.net/e...ons/63508-ring-vs-radial-9.html#ixzz288kHkXfm
​

 

[hermetic]

Just to go back to your earlier post, I am not keen on the push-fit terminations, and don't use them, having had to repair dozens of fluorescent light fittings from the eighties and nineties which were all push fit internal connections. I think, as in the lights, over time they will lose their grip, which will cause overheating, thus softening the spring clips which secure the wires, with disastrous results. I think these things are the fire starters of the future.
Phil

 

[ExArmy]

Just to go back to your earlier post, I am not keen on the push-fit terminations, and don't use them, having had to repair dozens of fluorescent light fittings from the eighties and nineties which were all push fit internal connections. I think, as in the lights, over time they will lose their grip, which will cause overheating, thus softening the spring clips which secure the wires, with disastrous results. I think these things are the fire starters of the future.
Phil

good point, how do they know they will not all come loose in 10 years?!

 

[wildgoose]

Radial circuit is my favourite - easier to install and test.

Also fed up with trying to convince customers they have a problem when their RFC'S is open circuit because they think you are pulling a fast one!!

 

[imago]

good point, how do they know they will not all come loose in 10 years?!

Decent quality ones are better than screw terminals in that respect. They will to a degree move to take up slack created by the expansion and contraction causing a thin section, whereas screw terminals require periodic tightening to take it up.

 

[ExArmy]

in theory yes, but they are untested. unless wago invented them back in the 70's, then have been testing them untill now, and now they are sure they will last well then they are selling them?
its the same as when thay claim an LED lamp will last 20 years, how the f*** do they know that? it;s just a guess!

 

[vjsmarwick]

It's true we are sold things every day with claimed long life push fit connectors led lights plastic windows windmills all just pipe dreams.
Only time will tell but do far plastic windows are not doing what was initially claimed I am sure the next will be the windmills already proving problem some up here but maybe just too windy here.

 

[hermetic]

Decent quality ones are better than screw terminals in that respect. They will to a degree move to take up slack created by the expansion and contraction causing a thin section, whereas screw terminals require periodic tightening to take it up.

Given that we have been using screw terminations virtually since the dawn of electrical installation, we wont know if push fits are better for a long long time regardless of the quality. The phrase, "decent ones" also reveals that there are some out there that ppl consider are not decent, so I guess they will catch fire first!
Phil

 

[hermetic]

And I think for better you really mean "cheaper and faster"

 

[ayjay]

thailand has lovely electrics
and heath&safety-not
notice the guy hanging off the balcony by one hand , drilling fixings for the aircon unit

the power(400v) & comms

400 v hext to the balcony

earthing is anathema to them
i love the place tho

aww cats on the pavement---

 

[vjsmarwick]

Was just re reading this post and not sure its right but i may be wrong "the vast majority of the housing stock in this country was rewired for the first time between about 1960 and 1980. they were all wired with 13amp sockets and ring mains under the IEE regs which stated "any number of sockets on a ring and any number of sockets on a spur so long as the number of sockets on spurs does not exceed the number of sockets on the ring, and the whole does not exceed a floorspace of 100 sq M." the vast majority of these houses are wired in T/E pvc cables, and will not be rewired in the foreseeable future, hence the downturn in work we have all experienced in the last 10-20 years. "
Remembering back I think it was as many sockets on the ring but only one spur from each socket on the ring.
Please correct me if I am wrong !

 

[Echo]

I'm a radial fan boy, that's not because I'm ignorant or inexperienced (although I'll be the first to agree there are people with far more experience on here than me!) it's because I find them easier. Easier to install, easier to test, easier to fault find.

However I do agree that they should be only used in suitable circumstances. I wouldn't like them to become the norm and lose the ring for ever. In a domestic situation we always install a ring in the kitchen, and then the rest is determined by number of outlets, distance and likely loads.

Our NICEIC assessor has also mentioned something about rings becoming extinct? I hadn't heard of anything before but he was saying we are the only country in the world to use the ring circuit, then he contradicted himself by saying some countries use our regs so they also use rings. Make of that what you wish.......:whatchutalkingabout

 

[ipf]

I'm a radial fan boy, that's not because I'm ignorant or inexperienced (although I'll be the first to agree there are people with far more experience on here than me!) it's because I find them easier. Easier to install, easier to test, easier to fault find.

However I do agree that they should be only used in suitable circumstances. I wouldn't like them to become the norm and lose the ring for ever. In a domestic situation we always install a ring in the kitchen, and then the rest is determined by number of outlets, distance and likely loads.

Our NICEIC assessor has also mentioned something about rings becoming extinct? I hadn't heard of anything before but he was saying we are the only country in the world to use the ring circuit, then he contradicted himself by saying some countries use our regs so they also use rings. Make of that what you wish.......:whatchutalkingabout

Rings extinct ? Certainly not in my lifetime. It must be said though, I fear the best standards in the world really are on a downward curve.

 

[Guitarist]

good point, how do they know they will not all come loose in 10 years?!

Have a look at the old Wago video. It's from the 50's
I think we can safely say that the connectors are "fit for purpose".

 

[hermetic]

"Remembering back I think it was as many sockets on the ring but only one spur from each socket on the ring.
Please correct me if I am wrong !"

No, you are not wrong, I didn't go into that much detail, as you say 14ed 1970 says in A38 "the total number of spurs shall not exceed the total number of socket outlets and stationary appliances connected directly to the ring"
Phil.

Read more: http://www.electriciansforums.net/e...ns/63508-ring-vs-radial-10.html#ixzz28DniANvj
​

 

[hermetic]

Have a look at the old Wago video. It's from the 50's
I think we can safely say that the connectors are "fit for purpose".

Can you provide a link to the video please, I have searched and can't find it. I did find some very dodgy DIY site videos about using wago,s, which also emphasized how deadly dangerous screw terminal junction boxes are (LOLS!! Not really a thinly disguised bit of propaganda advertising then!) , which use the "compliance buzzwords" maintenance free. in actual fact, maintenance impossible would be more accurate, and the idea that you can put any cable junction in a place where it cannot be accessed is fatally flawed. For instance, DNO connections buried underground are "maintenance free" until the junction fails and blows up!, then the DNO comes out, digs up the road, and replaces it!

 

[Tonytigers]

Nicely put!

 

[gonefishing]

The days of running radials and ring circuits are coming to an end we have no need for 230 volts around the home apart from hoover, kettle. wash machine and most high power kitchen stuff and possible shower most of the other items would run very well at 5 volts, LED's as well. The NICEIC and others have developed the idea and have working systems in place , so I'm told. How's it done?..easy.. remove all the transformers that all the manufactures of IT, TV's and other equipment put in everything we use nowadays. It would certainly help the world's resources to reduce the amount of transformers that are produced every year.
Apparently, there is some opposition from the manufactures of PC's, TV's etc. and electricity supply companies, can imagine why though !!. Most of us already buy something near 240 volts when we only need the 220 volts which of course most appliances run best at this voltage. Think of data cables over the house with a simple plug hidden in skirting or some sort other conduit system. The only circuits would be 230 volts for hoover, so 1 on the landing and the other circuits all in the kitchen, perhaps an electrical shower. LED for total lighting and data cables easily added to. Don't know what it would do for us electricians though?

 

[ipf]

The days of running radials and ring circuits are coming to an end we have no need for 230 volts around the home apart from hoover, kettle. wash machine and most high power kitchen stuff and possible shower most of the other items would run very well at 5 volts, LED's as well. The NICEIC and others have developed the idea and have working systems in place , so I'm told. How's it done?..easy.. remove all the transformers that all the manufactures of IT, TV's and other equipment put in everything we use nowadays. It would certainly help the world's resources to reduce the amount of transformers that are produced every year.
Apparently, there is some opposition from the manufactures of PC's, TV's etc. and electricity supply companies, can imagine why though !!. Most of us already buy something near 240 volts when we only need the 220 volts which of course most appliances run best at this voltage. Think of data cables over the house with a simple plug hidden in skirting or some sort other conduit system. The only circuits would be 230 volts for hoover, so 1 on the landing and the other circuits all in the kitchen, perhaps an electrical shower. LED for total lighting and data cables easily added to. Don't know what it would do for us electricians though?

Long way off yet, I feel. Ask the local authorities to sort out all the council houses and see what they say....Budget, what budget ?
New builds....maybe, but not for a while.

 

[Adam W]

The days of running radials and ring circuits are coming to an end we have no need for 230 volts around the home apart from hoover, kettle. wash machine and most high power kitchen stuff and possible shower most of the other items would run very well at 5 volts, LED's as well. The NICEIC and others have developed the idea and have working systems in place , so I'm told. How's it done?..easy.. remove all the transformers that all the manufactures of IT, TV's and other equipment put in everything we use nowadays. It would certainly help the world's resources to reduce the amount of transformers that are produced every year.
Apparently, there is some opposition from the manufactures of PC's, TV's etc. and electricity supply companies, can imagine why though !!. Most of us already buy something near 240 volts when we only need the 220 volts which of course most appliances run best at this voltage. Think of data cables over the house with a simple plug hidden in skirting or some sort other conduit system. The only circuits would be 230 volts for hoover, so 1 on the landing and the other circuits all in the kitchen, perhaps an electrical shower. LED for total lighting and data cables easily added to. Don't know what it would do for us electricians though?

Really?
You'd rewire your house for ELV, eg most sockets 24v and just a couple of 230v sockets for the appliances you mentioned?
If you consider volt drop you'd most likely need something like several 4mm radials. Then of course you would need several 230v sockets around the house so you can plug the vacuum cleaner in in different places. Then of course you'd need 2 supplies, at different voltages, again probably using thicker cable to counter volt drop, which would be at ELV so easier and more attractive for some scallywag to steal and make your freezer defrost.

It'd be cheaper and easier to move to somewhere like America, where they use silly voltages.

I think you're pulling my leg.

 

[MDJ]

multiple radial circuits are far better than a couple of rings, obviously the negative side is a larger consumer unit, the positive side is the fact you can reduce load by balancing across several circuits, a no brainer IMO.