Schneider ZBE 101 is not working

[Darkwood]

With my humble level of knowledge of the subject, it looks like the same to me.....

They are the same just meant you using a monitored short circuit dual input set-up which is the same connections for E-Stops and Gates ...just to confirm we are all singing on the same hymn sheet here... are you using a 24v dc control for all your circuits running through the relays ...if so read my edit to last post.

 

[LordKelvin]

They are the same just meant you using a monitored short circuit dual input set-up which is the same connections for E-Stops and Gates ...just to confirm we are all singing on the same hymn sheet here... are you using a 24v dc control for all your circuits running through the relays ...if so read my edit to last post.

yes 24vdc

I do not have here a jumper...there is no other way right?

I will need to buy one then...

 

[LordKelvin]

Im wondering if I could check bit by bit instead of all together

 

[Darkwood]

yes 24vdc

I do not have here a jumper...there is no other way right?

I will need to buy one then...

All I meant by that was get a piece of wire and momentarally link said 2 terminals ...same as a link as though you were doing the job of the reset button with the short link of wire...

Site jargon --- Link - permanent connection eg 'link out terminals X an Y'
Jumper or jumper lead -a loose piece of wire for a temp' connection, I used the jumper because you don't wont to make a permanent link for the reset just mimic the action of the reset button.

When you get the hang of it you'll realise my little simple test routine takes about 2 mins and firstly confirms the relay is functional if it still has issues with loops linked out then disconnect all relay outputs to ensure no control short circuit is crashing the voltage and stopping the safety relay operating.

The hardest part usually is establishing which safety set-up has been implemented as safety relays can often be rigged up numerous ways to provide different cover and operation.

PS missed out in post 15 because you supplied the info after I posted is the link from s11 - s52 will also be required but the edit option in the forum has been reset and doesn't give you time to change things.

 

[LordKelvin]

All I meant by that was get a piece of wire and momentarally link said 2 terminals ...same as a link as though you were doing the job of the reset button with the short link of wire...

Site jargon --- Link - permanent connection eg 'link out terminals X an Y'
Jumper or jumper lead -a loose piece of wire for a temp' connection, I used the jumper because you don't wont to make a permanent link for the reset just mimic the action of the reset button.

When you get the hang of it you'll realise my little simple test routine takes about 2 mins and firstly confirms the relay is functional if it still has issues with loops linked out then disconnect all relay outputs to ensure no control short circuit is crashing the voltage and stopping the safety relay operating.

The hardest part usually is establishing which safety set-up has been implemented as safety relays can often be rigged up numerous ways to provide different cover and operation.

So I prepare a wire with two terminals and I connect with it the terminals S11 and S12, and then another one for S21 and S22.
But there will be no space to put a second terminal in S12 to connect with S34

I did not understand the difference between permanent and temporary...If I do all these connections I am cutting out all the interlocks, emergency stop buttons, Safety contactors 1 and 2, Main contactor MC and also the relay R1.....is it not dangerous if I run the machine in this configuration?

 

[Darkwood]

So I prepare a wire with two terminals and I connect with it the terminals S11 and S12, and then another one for S21 and S22.
But there will be no space to put a second terminal in S12 to connect with S34

I did not understand the difference between permanent and temporary...If I do all these connections I am cutting out all the interlocks, emergency stop buttons, Safety contactors 1 and 2, Main contactor MC and also the relay R1.....is it not dangerous if I run the machine in this configuration?

Yes just link out the terminals S11 to S12, S21 to S22 as well as another link from S11 to S52 then use a loose bit of cable to momenterally link S12 to S34.

If this then operates the safety relay it will only energise the control circuit ready for someone to push the start button or however its run...if you do not want to give them the chance to press anything just drop out your relay outputs so it will not energise the controls.

Once the unit is proven then you can remove the loop links straight away dropping the relay back out if its outputs are still connected, we are only talking a 10second window here that controls get powered so thats your call dependent on who's about, your line of sight and the risk level of the machine.

 

[LordKelvin]

Yes just link out the terminals S11 to S12, S21 to S22 as well as another link from S11 to S52 then use a loose bit of cable to momenterally link S12 to S34.

If this then operates the safety relay it will only energise the control circuit ready for someone to push the start button or however its run...if you do not want to give them the chance to press anything just drop out your relay outputs so it will not energise the controls.

Once the unit is proven then you can remove the loop links straight away dropping the relay back out if its outputs are still connected, we are only talking a 10second window here that controls get powered so thats your call dependent on who's about, your line of sight and the risk level of the machine.

There is no space in S12 and S11 to put two cables...how may I do? May I connect in another place where the "original" S12 and S11 are connected like SC1 and Emergency button?

Also, I did not understand the windows of 10sec and this:

we are only talking a 10second window here that controls get powered so thats your call dependent on who's about, your line of sight and the risk level of the machine.

 

[Darkwood]

There is no space in S12 and S11 to put two cables...how may I do? May I connect in another place where the "original" S12 and S11 are connected like SC1 and Emergency button?

Compromise 'use a connector, smaller cables or dont ferrule them ' its just a temp' thing to check if it resets

Also, I did not understand the windows of 10sec and this:

Once you test the function of the safety relay by mimic of a reset button your relay may energise the outputs, this should not set the machine running it will only energise the control options to operate the machine, if you decide to leave the outputs connected that it, as soon as you have proven the relay you can immediatly open circuit one of the links you fitted and de-energise the enabled controls... you can do thin quickly hence I said the controls will only be energised approx 10seconds so up to you if you consider this a risk... if so drop out the relay outputs and the controls will not energise... try not to over complicate it, its easy to panic when your not sure and simple tasks then become confusing.. sit back understand how the relay operates and apply our help to what you have learned.

 

[LordKelvin]

Yes I will tomorrow.

What about if I also try to disconnect all the wires from: 13 23 33 14 24 34 and keep only 41 and 42 (and of course the power for the SR A1 and A2) for the lamp and also try this...

If I power on and the button works, it might be something wrong outside the couple SR + its safety loop.

Am I wrong? (Maybe someone else adviced this but I didnt get?)



Really thanks anyway to everyone!!!

 

[Darkwood]

Yes I will tomorrow.

What about if I also try to disconnect all the wires from: 13 23 33 14 24 34 and keep only 41 and 42 (and of course the power for the SR A1 and A2) for the lamp and also try this...

If I power on and the button works, it might be something wrong outside the couple SR + its safety loop.

Am I wrong? (Maybe someone else adviced this but I didnt get?)



Really thanks anyway to everyone!!!

Lets reflect here as your getting all confused ...


Power terminals A1 + A2 power supply - leave as is.

Relay terminals ......N/C 41 - 42 usually trip indicator -leave as is.
N/O 13 - 14 / 23 - 24 / 33 - 34 (disconnect 14,24,34 if you don't want to energise the machine controls while testing unit.

Monitoring circuits
The unit has to see a closed loop between terminals S11 and S12 (this is for your loop 'A' of the E stop system)
The unit has to see a closed loop between terminals S21 and S22 (this is for your loop 'B' of the E stop system)

The unit has to see a closed loop between terminals S11 and S52 (this configures the unit to monitor any shorts between the above loops)

When the unit see's all these above conditions met on the monitoring loops then a momentary connection from S11 to S34 should operate the unit and the relays will change over to allow power to the control system of the machine.

When you understand what the unit is doing then you can decide (as I have shown you) how to confirm the safety unit is working by disconnecting loops and linking the appropriate terminals.
Once you get to grips with this one then there are many more combinations of safety relays and set-ups to work out ...this one been a very simple one to learn on.

 

[LordKelvin]

Great explanation thanks darkwood!

 

[LordKelvin]

Wow! I was able to make what you said

So this is the response:

link=my (fake) connection, real=the connection from the electrical diagram
YES=it switches NO=it does not

scenario 1 - YES
S11-S12 link
S21-S22 link
S11-S52 link
S12-S34 link

scenario 2 - NO
S11-S12 real
S21-S22 link
S11-S52 link
S12-S34 link

scenario 3 - YES
S11-S12 link
S21-S22 real
S11-S52 link
S12-S34 link

scenario 4 - YES
S11-S12 link
S21-S22 link
S11-S52 real
S12-S34 link

scenario 5 - YES (after pushing the real reset button)
S11-S12 link
S21-S22 link
S11-S52 link
S12-S34 real

I studied (well, as much as I could with my knowledge) the manual and the relay and now I believe I have got this:

The issue is in the S11 - S12 branch of the circuit.

The only thing is...what could be the problem? As I already checked there is continuity everywhere (between every two points) except before and after the 3 interlocks group...but of course they are not energised during the test (I read that I need to check continuity with the device with the power off). Also when I power on the panel, I can see the green led ON in the 3 MECHAN interlocks, that means there is a magnetic connection...

I hope I am doing well until now I am on a self-learning and also through yours (much appreciated) so be patient please with my lack of knowledge if I say something that looks "stupid"

 

[Darkwood]

Just remember just because the green light is on and the mechanical lock engaged it may be the case the integral limit switch is faulty or even a loose/broken wire, never assume always check.

Bypass a suspicious device to see if it cures the problem.

The hardest issue is having multiple faults although not as common they can be confusing at the very least.

Now you have identified the loop that is open circuit you can work your way through it... happy fault finding

 

[Bobster]

Oh be aware on a duel channel system, if both channels don't break simultaneously the pilz unit will see this as a fault and will not let you reset without cycling the power to it,

 

[LordKelvin]

So we could definitively say that the fault is in one (or more) of the interlocks?
And exactly in the wire that connect s11 with s12 right?
Thanks

 

[Bobster]

It looks that way.

 

[LordKelvin]

It looks that way.

Now it might be a good idea to study how the MECHAN safety interlock works in as much detail as I can and by pass each of them and try to sort out.

really thanks guys!

I will come back here if I will have any news

 

[Darkwood]

When you get the hang of it, this particular job wouldn't take more than half hour to diagnose the problem so we just need to speed you up a bit - 3 days and counting ... just kidding we all learn somewhere :cool3:

 

[LordKelvin]

When you get the hang of it, this particular job wouldn't take more than half hour to diagnose the problem so we just need to speed you up a bit - 3 days and counting ... just kidding we all learn somewhere :cool3:

Well now I will recover on Tuesday..stop the clock please! Ahah

I wish a good long we to everyone

 

[LordKelvin]

Problem in a wire of the first interlock. Sorted Out! Thanks a lot guys