Self Build Advice Please - consumer units, sockets & switches...

[Midwest]

30liters on a bad day....do you an your partner not shower at all then?

Op is gonna have electric shower.

 

[1Justin]

Hi Justin,
They seem to me to be a daft way of heating lots of water that we'll never use. As I have said previously, clothes washing happens in a washing machine, dishes in a dishwasher. The amount of hot water we will use in a day isn't likely to be more than 30 litres on a "bad" day. The smallest type of tank is normally 4 times that size!!

Cheers

Well, as others have already pointed out, that heating load will need some very careful thought, and probably some sort of "hard" interlock to prevent the all operating at once. It may be unfortunate for someone having a shower if the kitchen is using the load though.

Personally I think hot water tanks are very good, and the heat loss from a well insulated tank at moderate temperature (say 55C) is pretty good. Assuming PIR foam 100mm thick, (U 0.2), for a 2M x 700mm tankful of water at 55C, that comes to about 36 watts. - Still too much to be loosing, give the convenience?

3 x 12KW + 9.5KW ! You are out on a real journey with this one! I have no solution other than some sort of TBD interlock. Let us know how you get on.

 

[davesparks]

Well, as others have already pointed out, that heating load will need some very careful thought, and probably some sort of "hard" interlock to prevent the all operating at once. It may be unfortunate for someone having a shower if the kitchen is using the load though.

Personally I think hot water tanks are very good, and the heat loss from a well insulated tank at moderate temperature (say 55C) is pretty good. Assuming PIR foam 100mm thick, (U 0.2), for a 2M x 700mm tankful of water at 55C, that comes to about 36 watts. - Still too much to be loosing, give the convenience?

3 x 12KW + 9.5KW ! You are out on a real journey with this one! I have no solution other than some sort of TBD interlock. Let us know how you get on.

Why interlocks? Two people living in the house aren't likely to go around and use all 4 heaters at once.

I can see his point with this, and a hot water storage doesn't fit his requirements. You don't just have the loss through the tank to think about, but how much water gets heated but not used and the amount of hot water which remains in the pipework and cools down rapidly. If there is a hot water circulation pump in use to satisfy the need for hot water to be delivered quickly then the losses go up again

 

[janner43]

Don't know if Justin missed my post about abandoning the 3 x 12kw heaters?

Anyway we have now decided on...
2 x Redring RP1s @ 9.5kW each (rated at 240v, at 230v only 9kW/40amp)
1 x Stiebel Eltron SHU 5 (2kW, 5 litre unvented) - it uses .31kW in 24 hours to maintain the water temperature once heated.

I feel much happier with the expected usage from an electrical safety point of view, and I have the comments made in this thread to thank for that. I guess maybe a handful of times in a year 2 of the 9kw items might be used at the same time for a moment and that still only gives 80 amps for maybe 30 seconds, allowing 20amps 4.5kW for other things if they are on at the same time.

 

[davesparks]

Don't know if Justin missed my post about abandoning the 3 x 12kw heaters?

Anyway we have now decided on...
2 x Redring RP1s @ 9.5kW each (rated at 240v, at 230v only 9kW/40amp)
1 x Stiebel Eltron SHU 5 (2kW, 5 litre unvented) - it uses .31kW in 24 hours to maintain the water temperature once heated.

I feel much happier with the expected usage from an electrical safety point of view, and I have the comments made in this thread to thank for that. I guess maybe a handful of times in a year 2 of the 9kw items might be used at the same time for a moment and that still only gives 80 amps for maybe 30 seconds, allowing 20amps 4.5kW for other things if they are on at the same time.

It would be interesting to know exactly how much current they actually use when they are running, they may very well have multiple elements totalling 9.5kW but not always use that much. I've found some 9kW showers actually include a thermal switch so that only one of the elements runs if it gets hot enough on its own (4.5kW)

 

[janner43]

It would be interesting to know exactly how much current they actually use when they are running, they may very well have multiple elements totalling 9.5kW but not always use that much. I've found some 9kW showers actually include a thermal switch so that only one of the elements runs if it gets hot enough on its own (4.5kW)

At the risk of embarrassing myself, I don't know of a way to measure the current draw - is there an easy way to do that?

 

[davesparks]

At the risk of embarrassing myself, I don't know of a way to measure the current draw - is there an easy way to do that?

Yes, we use a device called a clamp meter. This is a meter which has a set of jaws which encircle a conductor and measure the current flowing through it. When a current flows it produces a magnetic field around the conductor, by measuring this magnetic field you can calculate the magnitude of the current flowing through it, the meter does the calculation for you and displays the actual current flow in amps.
(Apologies if teaching you to suck eggs with any of this)

 

[newtothis]

Take your point it’s not an investment.

That’s good, because with respect you may be creating something, were no one would want to lend on, or buy it, without wanting to knock you for cash to conventionalise it. What’s the point of investing in a significant asset that can’t easily be liquidised ?

Tweaking a concept or standard downwards until it doesn’t achieve the criteria of the concept or standard is counterproductive to any USP attached to the concept.

Just random thoughts, please feel free to ignore.

 

[Vitesse]

It would be interesting to know exactly how much current they actually use when they are running, they may very well have multiple elements totalling 9.5kW but not always use that much. I've found some 9kW showers actually include a thermal switch so that only one of the elements runs if it gets hot enough on its own (4.5kW)

A bit off topic but along the same lines. What is the score Dave with a domestic property proposing to run 2 x 9kW electric showers from a 100A main fuse that don't have the ability to switch off one of the elements? My understanding is that it is a obvious no no due to the current draw, unless you have some sort of relay that will switch off one, when both are switched on at the same time.

I assume you could employ the same sort of idea in this case with the 9.5kW heaters?

I was sizing up a job today in a pub that needs a rewire in the living accommodation upstairs and it needs another electric shower, fortunately it has 2 x single phase 100 amp supplies, the existing electric shower it is on one supply that was drawing 55 amp on my clamp, the other drawing just 16 amp which will supply the upstairs and new shower, so not a problem.

Just I am not familiar with this relay switching if anyone could enlighten me?

 

[Richard Burns]

A bit off topic but along the same lines. What is the score Dave with a domestic property proposing to run 2 x 9kW electric showers from a 100A main fuse that don't have the ability to switch off one of the elements? My understanding is that it is a obvious no no due to the current draw, unless you have some sort of relay that will switch off one, when both are switched on at the same time.

I assume you could employ the same sort of idea in this case with the 9.5kW heaters?

I was sizing up a job today in a pub that needs a rewire in the living accommodation upstairs and it needs another electric shower, fortunately it has 2 x single phase 100 amp supplies, the existing electric shower it is on one supply that was drawing 55 amp on my clamp, the other drawing just 16 amp which will supply the upstairs and new shower, so not a problem.

Just I am not familiar with this relay switching if anyone could enlighten me?

Two 9kW demands would total 80A or so and so long as the anticipated demand from the rest of the property was below 20A then there would not be a problem. However each situation would have to be assessed on the anticipated maximum demand in reality.
It is not likely that someone would turn on the oven and all hob rings and go and have a shower, but it might be more likely that a family of four would be running a bath whilst someone else is doing the washing up and so using two heavy demands simultaneously.

Shower priority units do not appear to be common in Great Britain, I am not sure why, but they are in use in other areas on a fairly regular basis.
They would be something like this. Two options whichever is on last comes on (the other goes off), or whichever is designated "main" stays on or comes on in preference to the other load. I have seen triple systems I think before but I cannot remember where.

 

[Midwest]

OP, I remember someone pointing out to check the rating of your supply with your DNO, have you done that yet?

 

[Midwest]

Yes, we use a device called a clamp meter.

OP your electrician should have one. Normally clamp around the tails for this measurement, but best left to him. But measuring will be like locking the stable door, after the horse has bolted. You need to consider the design first, as davesparks mentioned earlier.

 

[janner43]

OP, I remember someone pointing out to check the rating of your supply with your DNO, have you done that yet?

I'll double check with Western Power, but having spoken with them about the maximum size single phase domestic connection & them saying it is 100amp I can have, I will be pretty annoyed if it is the old 65amp service. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[marc8]

hi Janner43

be a little careful with MVHR unit to do the most of the heating I know of a heating engineer that was working at some new build places & the developer did not put in any heating just MVHR units & it was cold in the winter & too late for them when it was finished.
on a course for MVHR units few years ago with a guy who was working on a passive house with very good insulation values, they were even putting 20mm conduit through walls for the outside lights when first fixings so no losses through cavities & then silicone the tube when wires installed & then again when light fitted trying to keep air tight.
sockets bagging around the back sides creating a seal as such to the outside.
used some MVHR units with wet rads inside them, they have temperature sensor mounted inside the unit which then feeds a stat that opens heating valve & heats the air coming into the property making them even more efficient.
another thing to keep in mind that manufactures do not tell you is what to do with unit should there be a fire I rang one company about this they said down to installer no guidance.
we installed heat detector in loft with unit & on a relay base N/C should fire detectors go off we stopped the unit. did not want to give the fire one of the elements it needed.
hope it helps

 

[Midwest]

As I mentioned before, the only experience I've had with MVHR, is my son's new build flat. It's pants. A couple of guys on here with experience said the ducting was probably poorly installed. The main unit makes a hell of a racket (installed on anti-vibration mountings), and for obvious reasons is constantly on. Perhaps a decent system properly installed, it might be different. You get what you pay for I suppose.

 

[janner43]

Take your point it’s not an investment.

That’s good, because with respect you may be creating something, were no one would want to lend on, or buy it, without wanting to knock you for cash to conventionalise it. What’s the point of investing in a significant asset that can’t easily be liquidised ?

Tweaking a concept or standard downwards until it doesn’t achieve the criteria of the concept or standard is counterproductive to any USP attached to the concept.

Just random thoughts, please feel free to ignore.

I take your point - but I actually think the reverse will apply here. At least by the time it comes for the property to be sold. At the moment, there is little understanding in the public eye of the value of high insulation, 21st century build techniques, a fully networked and AV enabled property and no need for radiators everywhere or for an expensive gas boiler that needs regular servicing. On top of that, as a two bedroom detached bungalow, on a generous plot with a floor plan and access specifically designed to meet the needs of a couple as they get older to reside in their own home for all of their life, it will command further benefits in the eyes of the likely purchasers.

Our previous home sold for more than any comparable house in the street in August 2015. It had no gas central heating and no cavity insulation and a poorly calculated EPC. I say "poorly calculated" because despite 200mm of insulation under the rafters and compact fluorescent lighting throughout, and utility bills that were 2/3rds of the national average it still only received a "D" simply because it didn't have gas central heating!!

In 30 years - when the new property is likely to be on the market - I think it is very, very likely that older, largely uninsulated properties with poor connectivity and old fashioned design will be harder to sell, while the majority of homes will have been retro fitted to different levels of success.

A custom built home that still looks normal but is, in reality only costing 25% of the normal running cost of an older property, and which has excellent connectivity and which is cheap to service is likely to carry a premium in terms of value and should be snapped up on the market.

But who can tell...

 

[andyb]

I don't think this design will catch on, indeed I'd go so far as to say that if it became common it would be banned.
All the discussion regarding how many people would use the shower at any one time is fine for one house, but what about your neighbour and the rest of the street? Then the rest of the town? Then the rest of the country? It's not sustainable for the existing grid.

An eco house is a very good idea, I worked on one a few years back and they pay next to nothing for energy. Proberly nothing.
But it depends on storing heat that has been harvested for free from the thermal panels on the roof.

 

[marc8]

janner43

also MVHR unit running through loft space good easy install just remember to insulate pipes all, as for previous post with MVHR constantly running & noisy sounds like a bad install.
keep duct runs as short as you can no sharp bends, should run nice & slow, slower the better less energy to be used then when boosted will still run slower than flat out. just done a block of flats with it in works great, also used the foam input & output pipes to & from unit to manifold & to atmosphere cost a bit but again no noise & better flow rate than flexi duct.

 

[janner43]

hi Janner43

be a little careful with MVHR unit to do the most of the heating I know of a heating engineer that was working at some new build places & the developer did not put in any heating just MVHR units & it was cold in the winter & too late for them when it was finished.
on a course for MVHR units few years ago with a guy who was working on a passive house with very good insulation values, they were even putting 20mm conduit through walls for the outside lights when first fixings so no losses through cavities & then silicone the tube when wires installed & then again when light fitted trying to keep air tight.
sockets bagging around the back sides creating a seal as such to the outside.
used some MVHR units with wet rads inside them, they have temperature sensor mounted inside the unit which then feeds a stat that opens heating valve & heats the air coming into the property making them even more efficient.
another thing to keep in mind that manufactures do not tell you is what to do with unit should there be a fire I rang one company about this they said down to installer no guidance.
we installed heat detector in loft with unit & on a relay base N/C should fire detectors go off we stopped the unit. did not want to give the fire one of the elements it needed.
hope it helps

Thanks for the idea about fire detection in the loft. An excellent idea and one I will include.

Our home is slightly different in concept in that it doesn't rely on tapes or sealants to be airtight. It has an air tightness value of 0.8 as built. We will not under any circumstances penetrate the walls. All cabling for outside lights etc will run up into the loft though conduits that are built into the walls. They will then drop through the soffit.

Here is a shared Dropbox folder containing some photos and a PDF of the tech spec of the build type if you (or anyone else) are interested.

https://goo.gl/ID2Ofk

 

[davesparks]

A bit off topic but along the same lines. What is the score Dave with a domestic property proposing to run 2 x 9kW electric showers from a 100A main fuse that don't have the ability to switch off one of the elements? My understanding is that it is a obvious no no due to the current draw, unless you have some sort of relay that will switch off one, when both are switched on at the same time.

I assume you could employ the same sort of idea in this case with the 9.5kW heaters?

I was sizing up a job today in a pub that needs a rewire in the living accommodation upstairs and it needs another electric shower, fortunately it has 2 x single phase 100 amp supplies, the existing electric shower it is on one supply that was drawing 55 amp on my clamp, the other drawing just 16 amp which will supply the upstairs and new shower, so not a problem.

Just I am not familiar with this relay switching if anyone could enlighten me?

I've never put any sort of relays in, but the most we fitted was 3 showers on one 100A supply in a house which had no problem.
Don't forget the chances of people all showering at the same time in a single house are pretty slim, especially since the water pressure would drop away to a dribble!

 

[sean_ork]

Take your point it’s not an investment.

That’s good, because with respect you may be creating something, were no one would want to lend on, or buy it, without wanting to knock you for cash to conventionalise it. What’s the point of investing in a significant asset that can’t easily be liquidised ?

Just random thoughts, please feel free to ignore.

They are very random thoughts, especially as the opposite of what you've posted is true ...

House built to this general standard are the norm for many of our more northerly neighbours, perhaps not all to PH standards but all highly insulated and a measured target air tightness - sooner or later such house will be standard here, there's no doubt about that.

Even up here in the UK there's many conventionally built houses that have to be purchased outright, as no mortgage company will lend on it - ask yourself why.

Also, the wise planners here have efffectly banned brick buildings, you simply won't get a warrant for putting up such a structure - ask yourself why.

 

[sean_ork]

I've never put any sort of relays in, but the most we fitted was 3 showers on one 100A supply in a house which had no problem.
Don't forget the chances of people all showering at the same time in a single house are pretty slim, especially since the water pressure would drop away to a dribble!

Theres no need for relays, just fit a shower priority device which negates any chance of an issue, or a dribble


Shower Prioity Units | MeteorElectrical.com

 

[Leesparkykent]

Theres no need for relays, just fit a shower priority device which negates any chance of an issue, or a dribble


Shower Prioity Units | MeteorElectrical.com

That is a board with relays/contactors.

 

[sean_ork]

That is a board with relays/contactors.

Yep, ready built, tested, approved, proven - not built using bits found in the back of your van

 

[Leesparkykent]

Yep, ready built, tested, approved, proven - not built using bits found in the back of your van

And not amm3 compliant so would have to have an enclosure built round it. TBH I have enough confidence in my ability to build my own if I never needed to......i was just pointing out that they are contactors/relays as you said no need for relays.

 

[plugsandsparks]

I'll double check with Western Power, but having spoken with them about the maximum size single phase domestic connection & them saying it is 100amp I can have, I will be pretty annoyed if it is the old 65amp service. Thanks for the reminder.

63A is not old. 100A is the maximum for a std supply but it is NOT a given. That's why I suggested you get it in writing. I was very recently proposed a 63A supply by WPG for a new build.

 

[newtothis]

They are very random thoughts, especially as the opposite of what you've posted is true ...

ha ha Sean, it might be more accurate and friendly to say ‘your truth’ is different to ‘my random thoughts’.

My thoughts are only based on what I read at this website, Why Passivhaus to summarise my understanding, or lack of:
it’s a precise standard worked out by boffins. Comes with certification and approved contractors/ and architects You tweak it to save money at the building stage and it’s not the ‘real deal’ ie not certifiable, therefore the USP vanishes, leaving an devalued asset that‘s harder to liquidise. In the real world with all it’s uncertainties, changes, shocks, and surprises that's not a good thing to do with a significant asset.

My second point is based on me buying and selling houses.
Dual fuel or three or four types of energy taking advantage of the efficiencies and benefits costs of each type is the preferred option.

Yet another gap in my understanding, I cannot even visualise what some of the items will look like, I’m probably well off the mark when I think of instantaneous water heaters, do they look like something you’d find in a Portacabin on a building site ?

Maybe what I’m saying, is if your going down the Passivhaus route, do it right, using the tradesmen and professionals they recommend (or in reality have paid for the Passivhaus ticket). Whether or not, as others suspect the OP may be attempting the electrical installation, with an largely unpaid mate in background to attempt to 'legalise' his DIY on the electrics is none of my business. :lol:

It's a very interesting topic. To the OP thanks for starting it, and I wish you every success with your project.

 

[sean_ork]

And not amm3 compliant so would have to have an enclosure built round it. TBH I have enough confidence in my ability to build my own if I never needed to......i was just pointing out that they are contactors/relays as you said no need for relays.

Could you build the same for that price ?

 

[sean_ork]

ha ha Sean, it might be more accurate and friendly to say ‘your truth’ is different to ‘my random thoughts’.

My thoughts are only based on what I read at this website, Why Passivhaus to summarise my understanding, or lack of:
it’s a precise standard worked out by boffins. Comes with certification and approved contractors/ and architects You tweak it to save money at the building stage and it’s not the ‘real deal’ ie not certifiable, therefore the USP vanishes, leaving an devalued asset that‘s harder to liquidise. In the real world with all it’s uncertainties, changes, shocks, and surprises that's not a good thing to do with a significant asset.

That wasn't supposed to sound unfriendly, sorry.

The formalisation of the PH "standard" only came about as so many forward thinking buildings/architects/self builders/home owners were working independently towards the same thing - the "standard" was formalised as a moveable goal to be achieved during design/build - there's many many different ways to achieve formal accreditation, if the tweaks result in a failure to achieve formal PH accreditation, the house will still more far more habitable and energy efficient than one constructed to the baseline of current building regulations.


Instantaneous heaters are often fitted to site huts, but (I posted a link to one previously) they aren't all grubby plastic boxes stuck to the wall with bluetac.

Ask the average builder to quote for building a PH and he'll likely first wonder where the beer cellar will be, ask the average builder what a cold bridge is and he'll point you at the crossing over the Forth. I agree the builders need to know what they are doing, but there's no accreditation to pay for, PH isnt a club you have to pay to join - you simply have to prove you can build to a standard, a standard that's far far higher than our current regs.

Making provision for multi fuel is wise, and its been mentioned in this thread previously.

 

[janner43]

ha ha Sean, it might be more accurate and friendly to say ‘your truth’ is different to ‘my random thoughts’.

My thoughts are only based on what I read at this website, Why Passivhaus to summarise my understanding, or lack of:
it’s a precise standard worked out by boffins. Comes with certification and approved contractors/ and architects You tweak it to save money at the building stage and it’s not the ‘real deal’ ie not certifiable, therefore the USP vanishes, leaving an devalued asset that‘s harder to liquidise. In the real world with all it’s uncertainties, changes, shocks, and surprises that's not a good thing to do with a significant asset.

My second point is based on me buying and selling houses.
Dual fuel or three or four types of energy taking advantage of the efficiencies and benefits costs of each type is the preferred option.

Yet another gap in my understanding, I cannot even visualise what some of the items will look like, I’m probably well off the mark when I think of instantaneous water heaters, do they look like something you’d find in a Portacabin on a building site ?

Maybe what I’m saying, is if your going down the Passivhaus route, do it right, using the tradesmen and professionals they recommend (or in reality have paid for the Passivhaus ticket). Whether or not, as others suspect the OP may be attempting the electrical installation, with an largely unpaid mate in background to attempt to 'legalise' his DIY on the electrics is none of my business. :lol:

It's a very interesting topic. To the OP thanks for starting it, and I wish you every success with your project.

We are building "towards" PassivHaus. As you say, PH has very specific standards, but in and of itself it doesn't mean anything to get the "certified PH" badge. It just adds £thousands for no benefit. Some of our standards are better than PH.

EG it all depends on where you are, geographically. The PH standards are the same, but heating costs in Devon are already significantly lower than those in Orkney. Even in an old draughty house. And for the last time - I am NOT DIYING THE ELECTRICAL INSTALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This thread has done exactly what I hoped - gained a lot of wisdom and insight from a good number of professionals. Many of whom disagree on certain points, but that is exactly why I wanted to ask the question in this sort of forum.

 

[Leesparkykent]

Could you build the same for that price ?

Probably if not cheaper.

 

[DPG]

It's certainly been an interesting debate. I'm sure as time goes on some of these 'new fangled' ideas will become the norm as we strive for efficiency. Remember, brick houses were a wild new idea after the mud huts! I sometimes think some people would be happy if things never changed and we still lived in mud huts Daz

 

[sean_ork]

Probably if not cheaper.

Yes of course ....

 

[Midwest]

Don't forget the chances of people all showering at the same time in a single house are pretty slim, especially since the water pressure would drop away to a dribble!

You've obviously forgotten what it's like to be a teenager. Turn on shower, wait ten minutes for it to warm up nicely, then have shower for 15 minutes, cos I'm not paying the bill.

 

[newtothis]

That wasn't supposed to sound unfriendly, sorry.

No probs at all Sean, I just put the ‘friendly’ bit in for a laugh - hence the cheeky tongue emoticon.
Watching ManU V southamton - I have beers here, that need to be drunk.:17:
Have a nice weekend all.

 

[Sparkie30]

Watching ManU V southamton - I have beers here, that need to be drunk.:17:
Have a nice weekend all.

i smell something illegal here. Lol

 

[newtothis]

i smell something illegal here. Lol

half time - nope MUTV you streaming it ?? LOL

 

[sean_ork]

Completely off topic fact - in the last 11 Utd home games, there's only been 1 goal

0-0 0-0 0-0 0-0 0-0 0-1 0-0 0-0 0-0 0-0 0-0

 

[Sparkie30]

half time - nope MUTV you streaming it ?? LOL

Ok ok but I still smell that. Lol

 

[Sparkie30]

Completely off topic fact - in the last 11 Utd home games, there's only been 1 goal

0-0 0-0 0-0 0-0 0-0 0-1 0-0 0-0 0-0 0-0 0-0

no need for that. Im very happy with LVG work.

 

[sean_ork]

no need for that. Im very happy with LVG work.

you must be a Southampton supporter ?

 

[Sparkie30]

you must be a Southampton supporter ?

no not really, just dont like man u

 

[Dave OCD]

The game of the day if not the season so far must be the Norwich v Liverpool match at lunchtime today. :smiley2:

 

[newtothis]

Time for LVG to go, he’s only cruising to retirement imo. He’s not the long term future.

Back on topic.
As a trainee, hope it's OK to ask this question.
When the customer decides to buy his own fittings etc, doesn’t that mean he assumes full responsible for dealing with potential warranty issues. ?

For example, say an instantaneous water heater stopped working, you could charge for troubleshooting, then leave the customers to liaise and arrange for a replacement from wherever he purchased it from. Then charge to re-fit and test ?

 

[Sparkie30]

Time for LVG to go, he’s only cruising to retirement imo. He’s not the long term future.

Back on topic.
As a trainee, hope it's OK to ask this question.
When the customer decides to buy his own fittings etc, doesn’t that mean he assumes full responsible for dealing with potential warranty issues. ?

For example, say an instantaneous water heater stopped working, you could charge for troubleshooting, then leave the customers to liaise and arrange for a replacement from wherever he purchased it from. Then charge to re-fit and test ?

hes good ......……… pen pusher.

well i would make it clear to him/her if they buy their own fittings then responsibilty lies with inscase there is a problem. Never assume this things.

 

[janner43]

In this case I am only buying my own fittings/materials as I was told to by my sparks. He is wanting to save me money as a friend rather than him spending time he doesn't have sourcing the best prices for materials.

I thought he would want to buy them all as normal, but his response was "if I supply them, I'll get them from my normal source and add the normal markup - you discuss with me what you want, I'll advise you and then you source those materials and products as cheaply as you can"

He's a good bloke

 

[123]

In this case I am only buying my own fittings/materials as I was told to by my sparks. He is wanting to save me money as a friend rather than him spending time he doesn't have sourcing the best prices for materials.

I thought he would want to buy them all as normal, but his response was "if I supply them, I'll get them from my normal source and add the normal markup - you discuss with me what you want, I'll advise you and then you source those materials and products as cheaply as you can"

He's a good bloke

You'll also be able to claim the VAT back on the materials...if he is non VAT registered you couldn't if he supplied them...and if he was it would be zero VAT anyways (assuming this is a New Build)

 

[janner43]

You'll also be able to claim the VAT back on the materials...if he is non VAT registered you couldn't if he supplied them...and if he was it would be zero VAT anyways (assuming this is a New Build)

Yes its new build. Actually, I need to buy some things myself to claim the VAT back (rather than the builder or zero rated supply/fit) as I need a VAT reclaim certificate to be able to qualify for CIL exemption.

 

[newtothis]

He's a good bloke

Good to hear Janner, maybe you could get him to sign up on this forum .
Would be interesting to hear his views, given he's much closer to the project than anyone here.