Shower pull switch opperating on load

[Pete999]

A friend of a Friend asked me to go and look at a Shower that didn't work, sure enough it didn't, I took the switch off, and the connections were, to say the least a bit iffy, cores cut out, tried my best to find out who did it and after some detective work he came clean and admitted it was him, changed the switch as a safeguard, all OK until this morning, shower packed up, got there did some checks, found the switch was faulty, he said this was the second time the switch failed, he was leaving the shower switched on at the shower itself but switching it on and off via the pull cord, I reckon switching the load via the pull cord damaged the switch, any thoughts?

 

[Leesparkykent]

A friend of a Friend asked me to go and look at a Shower that didn't work, sure enough it didn't, I took the switch off, and the connections were, to say the least a bit iffy, cores cut out, tried my best to find out who did it and after some detective work he came clean and admitted it was him, changed the switch as a safeguard, all OK until this morning, shower packed up, got there did some checks, found the switch was faulty, he said this was the second time the switch failed, he was leaving the shower switched on at the shower itself but switching it on and off via the pull cord, I reckon switching the load via the pull cord damaged the switch, any thoughts?

What make was the pull cord Pete? Was that your article I have just read in professional electrician?

 

[Pete999]

What make was the pull cord Pete? Was that your article I have just read in professional electrician?

MK Yes it was. I had been talking with Glenn about it, decided not to ask for the letter to be out there on the Forum, as I didn't want to upset/undermine some members, but it seems it was a daft request as many folk will put 2 and 2 together and come to the same conclusion you did when they read PE still nice to be in print at last, got a sort of book I have written about my life as a Sparks but I need to contact my old employer to get it vetted.

 

[DavidSpark]

I had a similar problem in my home bathroom many years ago. The pull cord switch failed around two times before playing nice (prety sure it's still going to this day, touch wood). During all this the showers had to be replaced once or twice too.

I would most definetly say that using it to do the switching has caused it to fail though, I don't think there would be much design foresight for this to be used as the primary switching device.

Perhaps it is combination of its use and an underlying fault within the shower unit which has cause the failure so quickly?

 

[Andy-1960]

What's the load rating of the shower?

 

[Pete999]

I had a similar problem in my home bathroom many years ago. The pull cord switch failed around two times before playing nice (prety sure it's still going to this day, touch wood). During all this the showers had to be replaced once or twice too.

I would most definetly say that using it to do the switching has caused it to fail though, I don't think there would be much design foresight for this to be used as the primary switching device.

Perhaps it is combination of its use and an underlying fault within the shower unit which has cause the failure so quickly?

Yes I agree I suppose it's a luck of the draw situation, you takes your choice and hope for the best. Thanks anyway.

 

[Wilko]

Reading up on MK 3164 (just cause I'm bored), MK list it as BS 60669-1 approved, which includes functional switching under load. MK rate that switch at 50A, so that sounds like a warranty claim?

 

[Midwest]

What edition & what page Pete?

 

[Pete999]

Reading up on MK 3164 (just cause I'm bored), MK list it as BS 60669-1 approved, which includes functional switching under load. MK rate that switch at 50A, so that sounds like a warranty claim?

Yes I agree, can you imagine the hastle,

 

[Pete999]

What edition & what page Pete?

April page 12

 

[Midwest]

Oooohh, only just got March. I'll have to pay a special visit to the wholesalers

 

[mattg4321]

Not particularly helpful now probably but I try to only ever use the 50A round Crabtree pull switch for showers. Have found them to be so much better than other brands.

 

[telectrix]

not so sure about the switching on load. mrs. tel has been doing it for over 10 years as she hates getting into a shower that comes on cold.

 

[Pete999]

Not particularly helpful now probably but I try to only ever use the 50A round Crabtree pull switch for showers. Have found them to be so much better than other brands.

Thanks

 

[Midwest]

I don't know why people insist of using the pull cord, when a shower has a perfectly serviceable on off switch. Same people don't keep switching their electric oven on & off at the wall

 

[Pete999]

I don't know why people insist of using the pull cord, when a shower has a perfectly serviceable on off switch. Same people don't keep switching their electric oven on & off at the wall

So would you install a Shower / Cooker without an Isolation switch then? I only ask because I had my Bathroom refurbished (only because I am old and can't do it myself) and the chaps doing the work told me I didn't need an isolation switch for my shower.

 

[Midwest]

So would you install a Shower / Cooker without an Isolation switch then? I only ask because I had my Bathroom refurbished (only because I am old and can't do it myself) and the chaps doing the work told me I didn't need an isolation switch for my shower.

Nope needs an isolator, but they are not really functional switches IMO. There as an isolator for maintenance or safety. Bet if the shower had a digital clock on it, they wouldn't be using the pull cord all that often.

PS 'Old' more like elder statesman

 

[Pete999]

Nope needs an isolator, but they are not really functional switches IMO. There as an isolator for maintenance or safety. Bet if the shower had a digital clock on it, they wouldn't be using the pull cord all that often.

PS 'Old' more like elder statesman

You cheeky T--t

 

[Midwest]

You cheeky T--t

That was a compliment. I might not bother going to the wholesalers tomorrow now

 

[Pete999]

That was a compliment. I might not bother going to the wholesalers tomorrow now

I know Middy only Kidding please don't take it to heart

 

[Doomed]

now getting an image of Pete in the house of lords.....

 

[Midwest]

I know Middy only Kidding please don't take it to heart

I'm a sensitive chap

 

[Midwest]

now getting an image of Pete in the house of lords.....

No no won't have that said. They have extra long lunches and doze off on the benches in the afternoon.

Our Pete has more thrust & stamina than that.

 

[Pete999]

now getting an image of Pete in the house of lords.....

House of Doom more like it

 

[DPG]

I wanted to like Post 17 but the option has gone! Where's the like button? Has it gone the same way as the 'thanks' button or is it just me that can't see it ?!?

Dazburnsout.

 

[Midwest]

Its in the cosmos to be rectified.

 

[dmxtothemax]

Which switch is suffering damage
the one on the unit itself
or the external switch (pull switch) ?

 

[Pete999]

Which switch is suffering damage
the one on the unit itself
or the external switch (pull switch) ?

pull switch

 

[hightower]

Which reg states showers need a local isolator, out of interest?

 

[Midwest]

Which reg states showers need a local isolator, out of interest?

Ohh dear 'ere we go again

 

[Pete999]

Which reg states showers need a local isolator, out of interest?

I have no idea, it just didn't seem right to me , anyway I would rather leave the pull cord where it was rather than fill the hole in the ceiling up, anotherthing my Mrs would have gone Harpic if there was not a switch, it's one of her things at night makng sure everything is switched off, bless

 

[Taylortwocities]

Ohh dear 'ere we go again

I agree with Hightower. There is no wiring reg that specifies this.

 

[Midwest]

Nope you are quite right. There's no regulation in BS7671 to say 'when installing an electric shower for Mrs Pete999, there must be a form of local double pole isolation, with 3mm gap blah blah'.

537.3.2.1 suggests a circuit breaker is suitable means of isolation, although further guidance on this, can be obtained from Table 53.4 note (5). There's others, which I can't see the point of arguing over. Only TN supplies, think your up a gum tree with TT, but don't quote me.

134.1.1 'Good workmanship etc etc. The installation of electrical equipment shall take account of manufacturers instructions'.

I believe most, if not all domestic shower manufacturers recommend a double pole 'switch' ceiling mounted, or wall mounted in an adjacent room.

Seems like the manufactures see it as a good idea, who am I to argue?

 

[Wilko]

I'd like MW post, but I've no longer got the ability - another loss with age?
I'm so used to seeing the pull switch I can't imagine not having it. Myself, I wouldn't rely on one for safe isolation, but I think manufacturers spec them for customer convenience and reassurance etc.

 

[telectrix]

I don't know why people insist of using the pull cord, when a shower has a perfectly serviceable on off switch. Same people don't keep switching their electric oven on & off at the wall

problem there is you need to get in the shower to turn it on and for the first minute it's bloody freezing.

 

[Midwest]

You could try one of these;

 

[westward10]

MK Yes it was. I had been talking with Glenn about it, decided not to ask for the letter to be out there on the Forum, as I didn't want to upset/undermine some members, but it seems it was a daft request as many folk will put 2 and 2 together and come to the same conclusion you did when they read PE still nice to be in print at last, got a sort of book I have written about my life as a Sparks but I need to contact my old employer to get it vetted.

Book as well Pete now I bet that will be interesting, how about a film with Robin Askwith in the lead roll, know what I mean

 

[Dave OCD]

Every so often someone says a shower or cooker needn't have a local DP isolator, but as I've said before BS7671 is the minimum standard we should adhere to and it's common sense to have an easy way to switch off anything electrical without faffing about at the CU. And if say a neutral to earth fault developed on a dual RCD board at the shower you'd lose half of the installation until the cable in the shower was disconnected.

 

[dmxtothemax]

I would imagine the pull switch would only have a 10 or 15 amp rating ?
If this is not suficient, try using a pull switch to control a 30a contactor.
that way the contactor does all the hard work ?

 

[Pete999]

Book as well Pete now I bet that will be interesting, how about a film with Robin Askwith in the lead roll, know what I mean

If it was to be one of those sort of films I don't honestly think I could keep up with Robin at my age.

 

[Pete999]

I would imagine the pull switch would only have a 10 or 15 amp rating ?
If this is not suficient, try using a pull switch to control a 30a contactor.
that way the contactor does all the hard work ?

What a 45Amp pull switch only has a possible 10amp rating? and use a contactor? bit of a weird statement if I may be so bold.

 

[DPG]

15A rating? Contactor? Am I on the right thread here?

 

[dmxtothemax]

The only pull switchs I have seen are domestic type which are usually only 10 or 15 A at best, so I assumed thats what you were refering to. I have not seen a 45A pull switch ever. Is it suffering mechanical failure or is it clearly an electrical rating problem ?

 

[Taylortwocities]

The only pull switchs I have seen are domestic type which are usually only 10 or 15 A at best, so I assumed thats what you were refering to. I have not seen a 45A pull switch ever. Is it suffering mechanical failure or is it clearly an electrical rating problem ?

With respect, you should get out more then.
45A or 50A pull switches for showers are as common as muck

 

[Pete999]

15A rating? Contactor? Am I on the right thread here?

No mate you are on the right thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Pete999]

With respect, you should get out more then.
45A or 50A pull switches for showers are as common as muck

View attachment 36125

LIKE

 

[westward10]

If it was to be one of those sort of films I don't honestly think I could keep up with Robin at my age.

I know what you mean Pete. Will try and pick up a copy of PE this week well pleased for you.

 

[telectrix]

The only pull switchs I have seen are domestic type which are usually only 10 or 15 A at best, so I assumed thats what you were refering to. I have not seen a 45A pull switch ever. Is it suffering mechanical failure or is it clearly an electrical rating problem ?

you're looking at light switches. over here we have 45A ceiling mounted pull switches for thing like showers. maybe in australia they are floor mounted.

 

[David M]

Nope you are quite right. There's no regulation in BS7671 to say 'when installing an electric shower for Mrs Pete999, there must be a form of local double pole isolation, with 3mm gap blah blah'.

537.3.2.1 suggests a circuit breaker is suitable means of isolation, although further guidance on this, can be obtained from Table 53.4 note (5). There's others, which I can't see the point of arguing over. Only TN supplies, think your up a gum tree with TT, but don't quote me.

134.1.1 'Good workmanship etc etc. The installation of electrical equipment shall take account of manufacturers instructions'.

I believe most, if not all domestic shower manufacturers recommend a double pole 'switch' ceiling mounted, or wall mounted in an adjacent room.

Seems like the manufactures see it as a good idea, who am I to argue?

Every so often someone says a shower or cooker needn't have a local DP isolator, but as I've said before BS7671 is the minimum standard we should adhere to and it's common sense to have an easy way to switch off anything electrical without faffing about at the CU. And if say a neutral to earth fault developed on a dual RCD board at the shower you'd lose half of the installation until the cable in the shower was disconnected.

Just wanted to give a "like" for this post

 

[Pete999]

I know what you mean Pete. Will try and pick up a copy of PE this week well pleased for you.

Thanks