Some (probably) stupid questions about my house rewire

[MrsFletcher]

Hi everyone (wave)

Sorry if this is in the wrong section :crazy:

I am currently having my house "done up" and the electrician has just told me he has finished the wiring and is requesting payment.

Most of it looks OK (not that I would really know any different lol) but one of the girls I work with told me that the kitchen should now be on a separate circuit main switch in the electrical fuse box, she says there should be 1 fuse for the cooker and another for the plugs but the lights can stay on the same switch as the other downstairs lights. Just so you understand, she had her house required a few weeks ago and that's what they did at her house.

Anyway, my electrician hasn’t done any of that, the cooker and the plugs are just on the downstairs plugs fuse?

Also I have just noticed that he has ran wires up next to the water mains pipe they are not in a plastic runner thing nor are they nail clamped (?) to the wall. They are covered by a wooden panel though so you cant see it unless you take that off.

So I guess my question is, are these things right or wrong?

Oops, sorry just one more, what sort of certification should I expect to get? He tells me that it will just arrive in the post?

Thank you for your help :heart:

Tracy

 

[Deleted member 26818]

What sort of cooker do you have?
Is it gas or electric?
Does it have a 3 pin plug, or is it wired direct?

 

[trev]

Firstly the only stupid question is the one you don't ask.
Ordinarily the upstairs sockets would be on one Circuit breaker downstairs sockets on another and the kitchen would be on another. Similarly with your lighting, one for upstairs one for down. The cooker, depending on it's wattage (and whether it is plugged in solely for an ignitor if it's gas) can either go on it's own circuit or on the kitchen ring main.
The wires running to your water supply are bonding conductors, I'll not bore you with why they are there unless youwant me to, suffice to say they are a safety measure and in my opinion, for neatness should be hidden. There are regulations that state they should be in some form of containment for protection but that depends on where they are and how they run to the water incomer. You will, or should, have a similar one close to your gas meter.
Now for the certification.
If your electrician was a member of a self certification scheme he will notify his scheme provider of the work he has carried out. They in turn will notify your local building control department who will issue a completion certificate which will come in the post. If he is not a scheme member you should have had a visit from a building control officer while the work was being carried out.
There's obviously a lot more involved in the rewire process but I've tried to keep it simple since you're a non electrician, if you need any more information post away on here and someone will come to your aid.

 

[Sparky Ninja]

I would suggest you look at the scope of your contract (if there is one) with regards to the payment. Don't hand over any money (especially if you have questions) if the job isn't completed, unless it was previously agreed. I wouldn't expect to receive final payment until I have handed the client their certification and talked them through the installation and paperwork.

 

[Jabbajaws]

"In the post"? Is he a registered electrician? I personally would not provide payment until l had recieved the certification. He is obliged to give you the certificates regardless of whether you pay him or not, though l shouldnt really be telling you that.

The certificates prove that he has tested the circuits, and that he is certifying the safety of your installation. If you pay him first you may never see him again.

All im saying is be careful, as there are alot of cowboys and rogue traders out there.

 

[JUD]

....one of the girls I work with told me that the kitchen should now be on a separate circuit main switch in the electrical fuse box, she says there should be 1 fuse for the cooker and another for the plugs but the lights can stay on the same switch as the other downstairs lights.

There is nothing in the regulations that states that a kitchen should have it's own ring/radial circuit. However, it is good practice to do so as kitchen appliances such as washers/driers can tend to put heavier loads on one part of the ring.

As for the cooker, it would depend on it's kW rating. For anything over 2kW it's advisable to put it on a dedicated circuit.

Also I have just noticed that he has ran wires up next to the water mains pipe they are not in a plastic runner thing nor are they nail clamped (?) to the wall. They are covered by a wooden panel though so you cant see it unless you take that off.

As trev1 said, these are bonding conductors. They only really need clipping etc. if they are accessible and from what you have said they appear to be hidden so they should be fine.

 

[keniff]

In the post. This is what I do, I write Down the test results rough on site then type them up on certification software when I get home, then send them in the post, this is then followed by the gumph elecsa or whoever your registered to will send out

 

[ezzzekiel]

Maybe your friends house is all wrong and yours is fine 

 

[Richard Burns]

As the above posts, nothing seems terrible there, depending on the rating of your cooker. The fact that the cables beside the water pipe are in a wooden cover sounds OK.

You should receive from the electrician directly, an Electrical Installation Certificate along with the associated Schedule of Inspections and Schedule of Test Results. If he is a member of a Part P self certification scheme then you would later receive a Building Regulations compliance certificate from his scheme provider. If building Control were involved in the installation then Building Control will issue the Building Regulations compliance certificate.

 

[MrsFletcher]

Where is my last post?

It had pics and everything

This is the wiring next to the pipes

and this is behind a light switch cover we removed:

We are a bit concerned these switches are for the 2 outside security lights and the hall landing and stairs, the security lights only work if we turn the hall way light on...?

We paid for a full house rewire and having now checked all the light switches and ceiling roses they still all have the old wiring in

The plugs downstairs have a mis match of both old and new, the electrician says they didnt need replacing so he left them in, he tells me it dosent matter that I paid for a full rewire as the job was harder than he first thought so he would have asked for more money anyway...

Any comments? PLEASE

 

[polo1]

It's really all down to the contract you have with the spark (you do have a contract don't you????). Did you accept a quotation or an estimate? Unless you have agreed to the retention of accessories, then they should have all been replaced with an agreed make. Similarly the cabling - it's in the name "rewire".

Sorry to see that the relationship is/has deteriorated. If a job turned out to be harder than anticipated, that's not down to you (unless say, you had agreed to move furniture, lift carpets etc and then didn't). There are always two sides to every story, but from what you have said, demand what was agreed and don't part with a penny until that's done and you have all the paperwork mentioned elsewhere (although I feel a stalemate coming on!).

Regards.

 

[midgetman]

well if you asked for a full house rewire - you've got old color wire still there - si it cant be a full rewire

 

[Engineer54]

As has been stated, unless you agreed for the continued use of any existing wiring, then he hasn't upheld his obligations to being contracted to conduct a ''Re-Wire'' of your premises. The very fact that your outside lights are only operational if another circuit is energised is another worrying matter. The use of existing accessories on such a job is another thing i've never heard of, i can understand to some extent if they were only recently installed prior to his re-wire, but that's probably not the case is it?? lol!! In any case, that would have been a cost saving to You, ...not the electrician!!

Sounds like you need to put your foot down here, and if the worst come to the worst, employ another electrician to undertake a survey, to be paid by any outstanding monies owed to the installation electrician....

There will only be a stalemate here, if you allow one to happen. What you need to do is drive forward to a suitable and just conclusion for both sides!!!

 

[telectrix]

as above. posts. all depends on what was quoted for/agreed. in any case, i would withhold final payment until such time as you receive the appropriate certification and evidence of the sparks being registered under part p with your local authority building control. if he is not, they can make you remove plaster, lift boards, etc. and pay for inspection/testing.

 

[trev]

When I replied to your first post I mentioned earth bonding. Picture 1 is what this is, while it's not exactly neat it appears to be ok. There should be a similar cable near your gas meter.
In picture 2 what he appears to have done is jointed neutrals in the swich box. it's not something I would do but there was a thread on here on the same subject a few days ago and the general concensus was that it is acceptable. Your security lights working only when the hall light is on is because he has fed them from the wrong side of the switch. It's something that is easily rectifiable but also it should have been picked up when he was doing functional testing. Personally I don't like feeding lights that way but it's only my opinion and you know what they say.. opinions are like bottoms, everyone has one.
If you have paid for a full rewire then that is precisely what you should have got but there may be a clause in the contract which allows him to leave old cables in as long as they test out ok. You would have to check your contract for that, but if I say a property needs a rewire I don't go round testing cables individually to see if I can leave them in. It all comes out and new goes in.
Has he put a mixed colour wiring sticker on your consumer unit? It should be easy to spot as they are supposed to be in a prominent position.
If, when all your questions have been answered here you still feel aggrieved then you can go to his competent persons scheme operator and complain to them. His paperwork should identify which scheme he is with NICEIC, NAPIT or ELECSA are the usual ones.
In the mean time please feel free to post up any questions you have, we're a friendly bunch who all want to see the job done right.

 

[gooner1984]

hello mrsfletcher,

if you have ask for a rewire then thats what it is REWIRE, remove all the old cables and put new ones in, by the looks of it. he cut a lot of corners, and if i was you i wouldn't part with any money. those color cables are not in use anymore today we use brown blue, yellow/green its the regs. to me sounds like a cowboy job not good at all.

 

[midgetman]

if you ordered a full rewire then that is what you should get. The "electrician" should if encountered extra costs which is sometimes quite possible have advised you - not just leave the old wires in.

As far as having kitchen not on dedicated ring - that's fine. The cooker though would normally be on its own radial.

 

[Knobhead]

My first reaction is to say get trading standards involved.
You may come unstuck with the contract. But the standard of work is abysmal.

 

[trev]

You can tell me to mind my own business here MrsFletcher but how much did this "Gentleman" charge you?

 

[telectrix]

well, looking at the pics. apart from advising you not to take up photography as a career, as tony, says, the standard of work is not what i would expect from a qualified sparks. those T/E cables dangling down the water pipes are no way compliant with regs. the cables behind the switches look like roland rat has installed them for a nest.

 

[oldtimer]

This is the very reason why I do not get involved with this type of work first of all Mrs Fletcher did he recommend that you upgrade your fusebox when he was quoting for the work ? no offence to yourself but there are "customers" who think hold on I am being ripped off here I dont think I need a new fuseboard.Also you mention that you were told that the kitchen should be on its own seperate circuit but if you have an old 6 or 8 way (thats fuses or circuit breakers) board then you may not have the spare capacity for the kitchen to have its own circuit although you would have if you got the fuseboard upgraded because first of all you would have got 2 RCD safety breakers and 10 circuit breakers instead of the 6 or 8 you have.

One last thing if you declined to get your fuseboard upgraded then there is not much an electrician can do but connect to the existing circuitry so after all of this could you confirm that you were offered a fuseboard upgrade just to add this would have been the ideal time to get this done.

 

[trev]

I'd have thought a rewire would have come with a CU change as a matter of course mate. All rewires I've ever quoted for have .

 

[1shortcircuit]

Have you had a certificate arrive yet?

I was under the impression that a BS7671 cert should be handed over on completion and a copy retained by the Electrician then IF the work is notifiable (which yours is obviously) the details are passed on to the Local Authority Building Control via the Part P Competent Persons Scheme that they are a member of.

Have you seen any proof that this Electrician is part P registered? NICEIC Elecsa Napit are just a few that exist.

Also, IF old cabling has been used then this will need to be noted on the Certificate that you receive, If it's not then um, you have them by the short and curlies and I imagine the Scheme provider will stand behind you and tell them to pull their finger out or get the boot.

It's always sad to hear stories like this but I hope that this gets resolved amicably as quickly as possible:thumbsup

 

[oldtimer]

I'd have thought a rewire would have come with a CU change as a matter of course mate. All rewires I've ever quoted for have .

Trev I would agree with you but times are hard and some guys no matter how hard they try the customer thinks they know best and some of us can afford to say sorry cannot do this and then the customer says ok then I will get someone who will next please

 

[1shortcircuit]

Have you had a certificate arrive yet?

I was under the impression that a BS7671 cert should be handed over on completion and a copy retained by the Electrician then IF the work is notifiable (which yours is obviously) the details are passed on to the Local Authority Building Control via the Part P Competent Persons Scheme that they are a member of.

Have you seen any proof that this Electrician is part P registered? NICEIC Elecsa Napit are just a few that exist.

Also, IF old cabling has been used then this will need to be noted on the Certificate that you receive, If it's not then um, you have them by the short and curlies and I imagine the Scheme provider will stand behind you and tell them to pull their finger out or get the boot.

It's always sad to hear stories like this but I hope that this gets resolved amicably as quickly as possible:thumbsup

If old wiring has been used then you have only had a "Partial Rewire" which is what should be noted on the certificate:thumbsup

 

[trev]

Trev I would agree with you but times are hard and some guys no matter how hard they try the customer thinks they know best and some of us can afford to say sorry cannot do this and then the customer says ok then I will get someone who will next please

Any new circuits are required to comply with current regs which would mean a new CU would be a necessity not an option in my humble opinion.
If I was quoting for a rewire and the customer declined the CU change I'd walk away from it with the offer of when they want the job doing properly feel free to call me.

 

[vernam616]

Reusing the old DB is just like reusing the old sockets

For me a rewire is a fresh install, new cables & accessories throughout, i would not warrent the work done otherwise

What if that DB has faulty RCD/rcbos etc..., things start to trip and i get the finger pointed at me because i rewired the house, ive then got to go out and fault find in my time

No thanks, no new accessories = no rewire


Im also intrigued at what you have been charged for this rewire MrsFletcher and what size house it is, we all have a rough estimate of what a rewire would cost

Also this cooker you talk about, has he fitted a specifc switch for the cooker in the kitchen? maybe one with a red switch on it?

 

[sjhall]

You didn't get this so call Spark from one of these site were you put the job up and they all quote silly low prices, did you ?:6:
If that job is a full rewire, I'll eat my hat, and If the guy was a real spark, i'll eat my cowboy boots....

 

[trev]

You didn't get this so call Spark from one of these site were you put the job up and they all quote silly low prices, did you ?:6:
If that job is a full rewire, I'll eat my hat, and If the guy was a real spark, i'll eat my cowboy boots....

Well apparently the guy is a registered spark according to Mrs F, I suspect you're right though SJ.
It really boils my wee when people get stuffed. Bloody cowboys

 

[alarm man]

theres always 2 sides to a story,we are only getting 1 here,no one knows the ins and outs of what the work was supposed to be,but i wouldnt be happy if a customer was taking my work apart then going on the net,remember this all started out from mr f's work mate who knows everything about electrics,so dont shoot the spark just yet...domestics eh dont you just love em..:ack2:

 

[oldtimer]

Guys we are all discussing this yet Mrs Fletcher has yet still to reply to any of our posts ??????

 

[alarm man]

Guys we are all discussing this yet Mrs Fletcher has yet still to reply to any of our posts ??????

i hope it isnt one of those wind ups..some people..tut..

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I once had occasion to look at a re-wire conducted on behalf of a Local Authority (in 1994 I believe).
All new split load CU, all new cheap and nasty accessories replacing MK ones, and all new lamp holders.
Not one new piece of cable to be seen anywhere.

 

[MrsFletcher]

Hi all, sorry I have been busy with the old man recovering from spinal surgery and the children demanding all my time that why I am on at 11:00pm

Right, I live in a 3 bed detached, I was Quoted £3500 for a full rewire, no mention of leaving in any old wires as my husband told him, we are really worried about the lights upstairs that, wait for it, turn themselves on and off whenever they feel like it :6as it happens they dont do that anymore, so he fixed that) , we made sure he knew we wanted every wire out and replaced with new, included all switches, plugs etc...

The cooker has been spured of an existing plug, in fact we have found out he has spured off; the cooker, the lean to plugs and the lean to light as well as the rear security light all from one plug in the kitchen, thats what the grey wires are next to the pipes in the rather bad photo goto lol

The electrician came with the builder who was given to us by our neighbour and he is as shocked as we are about the turnout. The builder is saying this s the first time he has used this spark and wont be using him again, however the plumbing contractor tells us its his (the builders) son? All the building work (well almost all) is good just the odd thing like a big hole in the kitchen ceiling and the new shower leaks whenever its used lol

The guy is NICEIC as we have had the cert and its says part rewire but has no mention of old wiring? the NEW CU has no stickers on it other than what each switch does.

We did agree to move furniture for him and this we did, in fact he commented to me that we didnt need to do as much as we did as he just used the cellar to run the downstairs plugs and the upstairs was almost empty anyway? That is why we dont understand what he said to us?

Update

We have today come to an agreement as I offered him to attend my property with either a 3rd party electrician and or a rep from the NICEIC, he told me to err myself and if I was that bothered about his work I should just forget it! He has 2.5k of our money of which I dont think he deserves or at least another local electrician thinks he dosent as he has said he wants to pull it all out and start again? Im not sure its that bad but then what do I know?

We dont know what to do now, we have all had enough, its been going on for 2 months now and we just want o get the house decorated in time for Christmas and forget all about it, I think a new spark and a new builder to finish of the mess in the kitchen and bathroom and just put it down to bad luck

Out of interest, how much would you of charged?

And, of course, thank you ALL for your comments even the ones that dont believe me hehehehehe

 

[alarm man]

please dont tell me your hubby is a plumber who needs his heating fixed...sorry jason..

 

[JamesBrownLive]

The guy is NICEIC as we have had the cert and its says part rewire but has no mention of old wiring? the NEW CU has no stickers on it other than what each switch does.

Just a quickie..

What colour was the cert he gave you? Because if it's green, it means he's not actually with the NICEIC. Anyone and their uncle can buy green NICEIC certs :dead:

 

[Rappid]

I would complain to the NIC as his work does not comply with current regs. There should be stickers for circuit details, RCD test, next inspection and 2 different wiring colours.

 

[Des 56]

Pictures of the certificate,without his details, could be very informative

It may shed more light on the standard of the builders son ( we will leave the term electrician open for now) and the installation than you could appreciate

The info provided so far and if correct appears disturbing

 

[DurhamSparky]

what a shoddy mess...!! 3.5k is about a good price for a basic rewire! and i mean a full rewire of all circuits!!

complain to the NIC mrs fletcher!!

 

[electromonkey]

Where do you live Mrs F? Someone from on here may be able to take a look at the work and advise you.

 

[1shortcircuit]

The NICEIC will not be pleased to hear about one of their approved contractors carrying out shoddy work. Definitely follow this avenue, that is of course if you feel that you can trust them to re-enter your property?

 

[Engineer54]

The NICEIC will not be pleased to hear about one of their approved contractors carrying out shoddy work. Definitely follow this avenue, that is of course if you feel that you can trust them to re-enter your property?

Worth a go i suppose, but i suspect they will do little to nothing, apart from just going through the motions of being concerned.... Read of plenty of complaints to these people about what there members have done or haven't done, but no-one has seen any positive action being taken. That i would imagine, goes for all these so-called scheme providers, that profess there members have all been deemed ''competent''!!!

 

[Octopus]

Mrs Fletcher, if I were you you should google competent persons scheme and look up the sparky.

You should also ask him for his NICEIC number too.

Sounds like he's cut more corners than an F1 driver in a Grand Prix!

 

[malcolmsanford]

Hi all, sorry I have been busy with the old man recovering from spinal surgery and the children demanding all my time that why I am on at 11:00pm

Right, I live in a 3 bed detached, I was Quoted £3500 for a full rewire, no mention of leaving in any old wires as my husband told him, we are really worried about the lights upstairs that, wait for it, turn themselves on and off whenever they feel like it :6as it happens they dont do that anymore, so he fixed that) , we made sure he knew we wanted every wire out and replaced with new, included all switches, plugs etc...

The cooker has been spured of an existing plug, in fact we have found out he has spured off; the cooker, the lean to plugs and the lean to light as well as the rear security light all from one plug in the kitchen, thats what the grey wires are next to the pipes in the rather bad photo goto lol

The electrician came with the builder who was given to us by our neighbour and he is as shocked as we are about the turnout. The builder is saying this s the first time he has used this spark and wont be using him again, however the plumbing contractor tells us its his (the builders) son? All the building work (well almost all) is good just the odd thing like a big hole in the kitchen ceiling and the new shower leaks whenever its used lol

The guy is NICEIC as we have had the cert and its says part rewire but has no mention of old wiring? the NEW CU has no stickers on it other than what each switch does.

We did agree to move furniture for him and this we did, in fact he commented to me that we didnt need to do as much as we did as he just used the cellar to run the downstairs plugs and the upstairs was almost empty anyway? That is why we dont understand what he said to us?

Update

We have today come to an agreement as I offered him to attend my property with either a 3rd party electrician and or a rep from the NICEIC, he told me to err myself and if I was that bothered about his work I should just forget it! He has 2.5k of our money of which I dont think he deserves or at least another local electrician thinks he dosent as he has said he wants to pull it all out and start again? Im not sure its that bad but then what do I know?

We dont know what to do now, we have all had enough, its been going on for 2 months now and we just want o get the house decorated in time for Christmas and forget all about it, I think a new spark and a new builder to finish of the mess in the kitchen and bathroom and just put it down to bad luck

Out of interest, how much would you of charged?

And, of course, thank you ALL for your comments even the ones that dont believe me hehehehehe

Before you contemplate the rip it all out and start again method please do as some of the lads advised and post your town or area and I'm sure one of the guys will be more than glad to help out.

Though the install looks a mess the cables themselves look in good nick and a simple test will prove if they are or not, and by getting a lad off here he will advise you honestly what is needed to be done.

The lights going on/off by themselves was most likely just a loose connection and nothing to do with the condition of the wire.

As you say you have held back 1k I'm sure you will get a good PIR done, the majority of the tidy/remedial work done for that, perhaps less.

At least you know that you you will get a good job, honestly done and good advise.

 

[trev]

If he is NICEIC registered he will be listed as a domestic installer or an approved contractor on their website. It'll take no more than 10 minutes to prove or disprove that. If it turns out he is not registered then I'd yell to them and building control who should (note I didn't say would) take action against him.
Use the £1000 that you didn't pay him to get the place inspected and tested and that should put your mind finally at ease.
T'would be interesting to see how this one pans out

 

[vernam616]

£3500 for a 3 Bed detached, quite extortionate i think

£2000-£2500 max for a basic COMPLETE certified rewire

This is starting to look like something from BBC's Rogue Traders

Get the place tested and inspected especially if you have kids in there, i truly hate people who do this sort of work and charge vast amounts

Hope it gets sorted for you

 

[telectrix]

£3500 is not that extortionate for a good job well installed. maybe top whack. i would have thought £3000 -£3250.

 

[vernam616]

£3500 is not that extortionate for a good job well installed. maybe top whack. i would have thought £3000 -£3250.

Suppose it depends where you live too

Up in the north east, the going rate for us is around £1500-£2500 for 2 and 3 bed houses, basic rewire which can be completed in 1day and half no plastering, 500-600 for 1day n halfs work is not bad going !

 

[sunglasses9303]

can you post some more pics

 

[Engineer54]

The local electrical contractors were charging over 3000 quid in Essex for 3 bedroom rewires 5(ish) years ago. That did include all chasing in and making good using 2 to 3 electricians and completed in 2 days...

The thing is though, this guy didn't do a full rewire, and didn't provide all new wall accessories either. Not to mention the non conformities of the installation that he has done in this installation... Which makes that 2500 quid being a complete rip off in real terms!!!