The great pat testing scam

[Risteard]

as long as they have fullfilled their legal requirement to have it done thats all that matters. Thats how these guys get away with it.

There is no legal requirement to PAT test per se.

 

[mogga]

errrrr there IS legals under HSE and pewr i fink

 

[Adam W]

The HSE website actually states in as many words (and a picture) that PAT isn't a legal requirement. It can however show compliance with parts 4 (properly maintained) and 5 (proper strength and capability) of EAWR, which is a legal requirement, provided they are 'competent' to do so in order to comply with part 16 (competent persons).
The main reason organisations get PAT done is because insurance companies, licensing authorities etc require it.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/myth/july.pdf

 

[nickblake]

wire puller i know what you mean brain dead work but little outlay and pays the bill but why do guys like this get away with it, and example i came accross when i was a regional manager for a card co .i hated that job by the way im a tools man , i was doing some work in an office ( all suited up tie and all ,and the company PAT Test guy came round plonked his tester down put the kettle on plugged three 4 way extensions together plugged in all 12 appliances into the leads and then pressed test whilst drinking coffee did nothing else exept put sticker on passed , one of my jobs was to replace a damaged cable on the vac oh he passed it , he left ,so i waited half an hour and rang his boss ,and back he came ,asking me who the hell i was soon shut up when i said i was an electrical engineer made him do the lot again ...without the coffee lol

oh and Aberystwyth university were charging £25.00 per item to test students equipment last year

 

[Phil]

oh and Aberystwyth university were charging £25.00 per item to test students equipment last year

at that price per item i would do it all day long

 

[Deleted member 9648]

at that price per item i would do it all day long

Me too........600 plus appliances per day.....I make that.....well a damn sight more than I'm earning now
Join the queue fella's.

 

[Liberator]

This plug was on an electric heater in the corner of an office, quite literally surrounded by piles (above knee height) of loose A4 sheets and files.. this was done by a well known electrical company in the Rubery area of Birmingham..

The arcing has actually burn a hole completely through the bottom of the plug, Im not sure of the melting temperature of these plugs but I was appalled.

The owner told me that the electrician doing the testing said he didn't need to open the plugs, it was just a PASS/FAIL on the tester.

When I did my City & Guilds PAT testing course, they never once mentioned or showed the students how to open, check, or fit a plug!!

 

[nickblake]

Stupid thing is how often do we come accross situations like that , i had exactly the same situation on a plug for a kettle ,red sticker on the kettle and the plug , yet they still used it , well did untill i cut the plug off, that stopped them , walked across the road bought a new kettle at £7.50 from tesco,s ,cheaper than the place burning down

 

[Phil]

i was supprised by the amount of people that pulled a face on the first day in the workshop on the 2330 when they had us doing plugs and commando plugs ect. they were all going this is rubbish, you get the gist... well when they came round to examing what had been done by at least 75% lets just say they had to go back to the bench and re-do them. was a lot quieter the second time round and a lot of embarrassed faces

 

[Liberator]

Recently during an interview with a large PAT testing company I was told that they expect 1,100 assets inspected and tested per week and that they believe it is quite achievable on many sites, and suggested that they might offer bonuses beyond 1,100 assets.

This means they were aiming at 220 units per day.

You can't say that its impossible to 200 tests a day, I can quite easily pull off 200 tests on a good day in the right environment.

It really varies, it depends on what PAT testing eqpt you use, your method of logging results, and mostly the environment you are working in.

Lets just say you enter an IT room for a large company, and you find 3 plastic crates full of spare IEC power leads, you telling me you couldn't knock out 200 tests in 3-4 hours just sitting in a chair at a desk?

On the flip side of the coin, if you're testing all of the equipment for a Mechanical/Electrical Facilities maintenance company, and its all 110v/400v tools, leads and the kind then I will struggle to hit 140 tests a day, sometimes less.

I don't like people saying if you're doing 200 tests a day, then your just slapping stickers on without testing. Those peeps saying that are either jealous, getting the wrong environments, have not developed the most efficient systems to carry out PAT testing from liasing with the clients, developing a labelling system, carrying out the testing, etc, or are just not motivated to work with a sense of urgency about them.

I heard somebody quote me a figure of 400 tests a day for one-person.... now I feel they must be just sticking labels everywhere without testing. But thats just because I feel I have developed the best systems available for PAT testing effectively and efficiently.

Maybe Im wrong, I dunno.

Also, I will only take a couple of "smoke breaks" during a full day of PAT testing, I never eat or stop for lunch as I feel this makes me sluggish and slow.

 

[Guest123]

i was supprised by the amount of people that pulled a face on the first day in the workshop on the 2330 when they had us doing plugs and commando plugs

That was my first day on the 2360 too.

 

[Phil]

funny how the noisy ones go quiet, and most of the ones complaining were in the trade and "i already know how to do a plug im not stupid" aaah how quick was that shown to be untrue

 

[Guest123]

We were all 16 year olds at the time and you can imagine most of their attitudes......this is boring......cant we do something else etc.


A lot did drop out after 2 weeks or so, and we were day release!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Burnt Fingers]

Its so common. I charge £2.00/appliance because I hate it but still have plenty of customers - we have an honest approach - test when required - and that can mean extending test periods if we have data to suggest frequency of use - and we repair at the time of test where required. I have seen companies just sticker everything and it makes me sick.

It will take an MP's relative to be injured before they tighten it up like Part P. At the moment anyone with a spare £200 can attend a bogus course and go off supposedly competent.

 

[RexT]

Hi Burnt Fingers,

Yes I believe you are right. It probably will take some thing like the death of an MPs relative to tighten it up. Isnt that how Part P started?
Best wishes
Rex

 

[Burnt Fingers]

Part P: I think - I might be wrong, originally was brought in to try and prevent kitchen fitters from running rings (or more likely radials and spur spurs) by shortest distance - you know, those diagonnal wild --- runs you see in kitchens and extensions.

This was shortly after the daughter of an MP (I think) was killed after trying to drill a hole in her kitchen a good way away from sockets.

I might be wrong like I say, but that story has stuck with me. I kinda hung up my sidecutters at Part P until now - most of part P is just good practice really - they should have just regulated kitchen fitters.

 

[UNG]

It will take an MP's relative to be injured before they tighten it up like Part P. At the moment anyone with a spare £200 can attend a bogus course and go off supposedly competent.

Sounds like Part P. Part P didn't tighten up anything apart from a tax loophole. I have seen to many BS 7671 non compliant installations done with part P notification to realise the previous government was part of the if you can't beat them join them culture and created a scam to remove money from hard working electricians pockets

What PAT testing needs is for a duty holder or two to be given the maximum sentence which I believe is £20,000 and/or 6months in one of the HM hotels for failing to provide the proper duty of care to their employees and allowing someone to be seriously injured

 

[Burnt Fingers]

Forgive my lack of understanding of Part P, UNG, I hung up my tools before then and went to communications...haven't seen any domestic since...

 

[RexT]

Hi UNG,

I think you are right. There does seem to be a money culture only and as you say, it is really down to how it is policed. Some very good points and well put.

Best wishes,

Rex

 

[Liberator]

Sounds like Part P. Part P didn't tighten up anything apart from a tax loophole. I have seen to many BS 7671 non compliant installations done with part P notification to realise the previous government was part of the if you can't beat them join them culture and created a scam to remove money from hard working electricians pockets

What PAT testing needs is for a duty holder or two to be given the maximum sentence which I believe is £20,000 and/or 6months in one of the HM hotels for failing to provide the proper duty of care to their employees and allowing someone to be seriously injured

" [FONT=&quot]The operator of the Docklands Light Railway (DLR) must pay nearly £500,000 in fine and costs after a
member of the public fell on the track and was crushed to death by a train.[/FONT]"

I see about 4-6 stories a week like this, highest fines I've seen for injory/death is £1million pounds, and prison sentences inline with manslaughter/murder.

This is since the Corporate Manslaughter / Corporate Homicide came into Act and would be the same for deaths caused due to negligent PAT testing.

These 50p a test boys will find themselves coming unstuck soon, and it won't be the clients being fined, it will be the PAT companies doing the work. Directors & Engineers.

At least Im confident I won't be finding my way there....... not only that, the additional cost in complying, and making sure I won't get into hot water causes increase in the cost of PAT testing.

Under old laws, The fines were £5,000 per offence (nothing states that 4 offences are the max, i.e. £20,000. I have spoken directly with magistrate and crown courts in reference to this a couple of years ago, but its all changed now)

Touch wood, I haven't been called in front of a Coroners Court, but its something we all have to be prepared to do, because we can all end up there, all it needs is for a death in a clients site, our fault or not. And if it was a fault on one of our systems of work, we have to prove everything was done right.

 

[UNG]

"
These 50p a test boys will find themselves coming unstuck soon, and it won't be the clients being fined, it will be the PAT companies doing the work. Directors & Engineers.

While the PAT company may be liable the client would IMO be liable also for placing an order for the sub standard work and not checking it is up to the required standard

 

[Liberator]

I agree that they should be partly held responsible, but by rights if they can prove that they thought they were hiring a competent, insured outside company to handle this aspect of their health and safety then it's the pat company that us responsible.

After all, if u agree to test and inspect 120,000 appliances for a big company or council at 50p a test then that pat company surely must be competent and no judge would see differently.

Just the fact that a company advertised as a pat provider demonstrates fraudulent intent if the end result is that Pat testing is carried out correctly.

Hawkesworth protect themselves by ensuring that every pat test engineer are "self-employed" but they will come unstuck because the definition of self employed is that u can accept or refuse work whenever u choose an that u don't just work for one employer.

Hawkesworth tells u that you're working 6 days a week, and doesn't really help u understand all of the implications of being self-employed.

If he ever comes under scrutiny by the taxman or the work of "his" engineers ever comes to light, all of his hard work and lovely profit will be for nothing.

 

[UNG]

I agree that they should be partly held responsible, but by rights if they can prove that they thought they were hiring a competent, insured outside company to handle this aspect of their health and safety then it's the pat company that us responsible.

After all, if u agree to test and inspect 120,000 appliances for a big company or council at 50p a test then that pat company surely must be competent and no judge would see differently.

I think if some one was letting a £60,000 contract then I assume they would undertake "Due Diligence" on the company being employed to undertake that work. At 50p per appliance I would certainly be wary if I was letting a contract, even with the current economic situation you don't hear of the pound shops discounting to 50p for some of the tat they sell

I have always been told ignorance is no defence

Just the fact that a company advertised as a pat provider demonstrates fraudulent intent if the end result is that Pat testing is carried out correctly.

Again this is an area dicussed quite a lot on this forum with the "Visual Check" being accepted as the lowest form of PAT test when no actual testing takes place

Hawkesworth protect themselves by ensuring that every pat test engineer are "self-employed" but they will come unstuck because the definition of self employed is that u can accept or refuse work whenever u choose an that u don't just work for one employer.

Hawkesworth tells u that you're working 6 days a week, and doesn't really help u understand all of the implications of being self-employed.

If he ever comes under scrutiny by the taxman or the work of "his" engineers ever comes to light, all of his hard work and lovely profit will be for nothing.

The tax investigation team are only a phone call away!

 

[Burnt Fingers]

Just to clarify, in case a lynch mob is on it's way, my reference to "bogus courses" was exclusive of the C&G - I referred to the type that have eight people being taught at £200 a go, one day, ten questions (you can ask for help) and discount PAT testers on the way out.

Sorry if any C&G Holders were offended, was not meant to ..

 

[RexT]

Hi Burnt Fingers,

Thank you for your comments and I am not offended by what you have said. I believe the important thing is that the person who does the testing does it correctly and ensures safety. I have taught the 2377 course at college, as well as the 2391 and the certificates that City and Guilds supply, in my opinion, are of value.
When someone has passed a course and an exam, it is only when they operate in the 'wide world' that the truth emerges. The people can be seduced by the money and pressured in to doing things that are not correct and are 'short cuts' which can result in the tested products not being tested correctly. The time versus the number of items tested is normally one pressure as well as the competition offered by those who do not test correctly and have been referred to as 'label stickers'.
My advice is not to join the label stickers club and to try to charge correctly for the work you do. I know its tough but at least you can sleep at night and hopefully the good guys will win.
Best wishes,
Rex

 

[PAT Testing]

You clearly had a bad experience with this pat tester, not all pat testing companies are the same, message from PAT Testing | PAT Testing in London | Cheap PAT Testing Prices | PAT testing Prices

 

[telectrix]

I do some PAT testing , not a lot, and try to do it right. One day I timed myself for 1 hour, proper test, fill in label, enter details on report sheet. I did 12 appliances. Based on a sensible hourly rate of £20 - £25, that equates at £2 per item approx. Anyone doing it at for 50p to 70p per item is either not doing it properly or has a very cheap lifestyle.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

I agree telectrix......the above link looks very professional....but IMO it is not possible to charge 70p an appliance,do a thorough job, and earn a living.

 

[RexT]

Hi wirepuller,

You are quite right about your comment. Its right to do a thorugh job and earn a living. When it goes wrong is where people find out the fasct that has been no savings doing it 'on the cheap and missing out some bits'.
As I said I hope we keep the job right and keep the trade.
Best wishes
Rex

 

[PAT ukLtd]

I work as a mobile Dj and before looking into PAT Testing the guy I used had one of these 'Supermarket Type' guns to provide the stickers, however it only had on it the date of the test and an item id number, no initials or any other info, i'm sure this wouldn't meet the legal requirements. To his credit he did actually test each bit of my equipment,and failed a couple of extension leads and changed some fuses, but maybe it was because I was standing in the same room making him a cuppa. Anyway only probably took 90 mins for I think was £90-£95. He was telling me about a large job he had been on in Bolton for several days and I wonder out of sight if he would just label equipment without testing......what I want to know is how do these Label only cowboys get on when it comes to producing the paperwork. My test sheets all show the readings of each test result.....so do they make them up?

 

[i=p/u]

good testers are quick to record results and print at end of day , but tottaly agree they dont give too hoots just want there 70p per item,, as ur man above said £50 quid a day does them

 

[millwall ken]

Love it, you're in the wrong job mate.

 

[i=p/u]

£2 per item bendoverken

 

[millwall ken]

£2 per item bendoverken

Sorry cupcake, I'm married.

 

[Graeme Harrold]

Its another poorly written regulation within the industry. There is no need to have PAT testing done if your company policy is written to exclude it, e.g. "We replace computers every 3 years......." There is only advised guidelines and a code of conduct for everything, and the only people who impose strict testing schedules are the smart companies who do care about their employees, or insurance companies. Again there is no need for labeling, its only a way to track tested items. Ive had customers request no labeling, I just provide a department/room schedule of tested items.

I dont go below about £1.50 per item, unless there is a load of class 2 items which can be churned out quite rapidly. All items laid out, a class 1 will take just over 3 minutes, inc plug top off, check terminals and then run the rapdi test sequence on the Fluke 6500, test running, lable being written.........

Starting a caravan park next week with the first batch of 156 units containing 6 items, 3 class1 and 3 class 2. Flat rate of £10 per unit and will be done in 6 days. Boring, YES, but an easy start to the year, then another 193 before Easter!!!

 

[Dec]

Starting a caravan park next week with the first batch of 156 units containing 6 items, 3 class1 and 3 class 2. Flat rate of £10 per unit and will be done in 6 days. Boring, YES, but an easy start to the year, then another 193 before Easter!!!

Happy days Graeme, i think i can get bored one week a month for that..... pity there are not an abundance of caravan parks near me :-(

 

[Duntestin]

I've read this forum for some time and on reading this thread felt the need to contribute!

I've worked in testing companies in various roles from tester to manager over the past 16 years. Only three employers in this time and all of them turning over in excess of £3M per year from testing income, so I think I am safe to call them amongst the testing 'big boys'.

Overall, what I can say is that the companies I worked for did not promote the cutting of corners to achieve high test volumes nor would it be tolerated. I've always believed and worked to the ideal that every man gets paid for the work he does and each person gets the same pay for the same work - whether hourly paid or unit paid, a cheat is stealing from his colleagues and putting their jobs at risk.

Anyway, my main point I wish to make is on the root cause of the advent of cheap testing and high test volumes. Indeed there was one single event which caused PAT test quantities to more than double overnight and I lay the blame for this squarely on the IEE.

To explain, with the advent of the 17th Ed regs as we all know, the standard for circuit protection was to install RCD. In line with this, the CoP for PAT was changed to allow the earth continuity testing to be conducted at a lower test current simply ensuring that the earth circuit of the appliance under test would withstand fault current to allow the circuit protecting RCD to come into play.

So with this revelation, the need for earth test currents of 1.5 times fuse rating were not required as neither was a 5 second test duration for the test. (FYI this test criteria was based upon the spec for a BS1363 fuse, check the graphs!). Net effect was that test sequence was drastically shortened and PAT test kits no longer needed to be mains powered.

So where's the catch you wonder? Simple. Not all circuits are protected by RCD are they!
Point is, where a cheap test company submits a price, they invariably do so on basis of using a battery-powered test kit. But unless EVERY mains circuit is protected by an RCD, they are not sufficiently testing the ability of the earth conductor of an appliance to ensure it can withstand fault current to allow the plug fuse to blow. In an extreme situation, a dead short to casing could occur on an item, earth conductor burns out before fuse blows leaving appliance sat 'live' waiting for a victim!

For me, this is the PAT testing 'scam' and it undermines the whole idea of doing the job in the first place!

 

[Patman]

To explain, with the advent of the 17th Ed regs as we all know, the standard for circuit protection was to install RCD. In line with this, the CoP for PAT was changed to allow the earth continuity testing to be conducted at a lower test current simply ensuring that the earth circuit of the appliance under test would withstand fault current to allow the circuit protecting RCD to come into play.

This is particularly confusing as the C o P dosn't actually lower the the test current globally but gives the option of a "Hard" or "Soft" earth bond test - 25A & 100mA respectivly. But any guidance on what equipment is not given.

However its generally recognised that IT equipment should be given the "Soft" test and all other equipment the "Hard" test. Hence the importance of a tester capable of conducting these two forms of test and thus providing "meaningful" test results.

 

[Duntestin]

This is particularly confusing as the C o P dosn't actually lower the the test current globally but gives the option of a "Hard" or "Soft" earth bond test - 25A & 100mA respectivly. But any guidance on what equipment is not given.

However its generally recognised that IT equipment should be given the "Soft" test and all other equipment the "Hard" test. Hence the importance of a tester capable of conducting these two forms of test and thus providing "meaningful" test results.

Havent got CoP to hand, but no mention of 25A test anymore!
Not sure of edition, but has a purple/lilac cover!

 

[Adam W]

"... not less than 1.5 times the rating of the fuse up to a maximum of the order of 26A for a period of between 5s and 20s..." p73

 

[Patman]

Havent got CoP to hand, but no mention of 25A test anymore!
Not sure of edition, but has a purple/lilac cover!

Yes "purple/lilac" cover is 3rd (and latest) edition. As NovusSparkus adds in his post.... p73. Check it out !!

 

[brizospark]

name and shame!!!!

 

[Duntestin]

Had look and 25a test is indeed mentioned - my mistake.
But my point is that it is not specified as mandatory, it is an either/or with a 20mA-200mA test is it not?

 

[gutterball]

Just to add to this. I was in a office recently replacing some light fittings when the pat test guy appeared. He had a bar code scanner and a printer on his belt. He scanned the previous sticker printed a label and on to the next. The whole office in 5 mins. When he had gone I had a look sticker said visual only and a number nothing else. When I queried the office manager she hadn't a clue about proper pat tests. They were paying this joker £50 every 6 months. Apparently he had walked into the office just after it had opened and offered his services. I'm wondering how many other business he has scammed?

 

[Patman]

Hang on what's that noise............. My blood's just coming to the boil!!!!! *@#*@@ !!

 

[Adam W]

That's PAT testing in a nutshell though - nobody's really that bothered about it until something goes wrong and someone needs to be sued, when the tester just says it was fine at the time of testing.
The office manager probably thinks she's got a good deal because it's all done in 5 mins with the minimal of disruption - nothing is even switched off, and it ticks the box for £50.

 

[Duntestin]

But who is really to blame? The scamming 'visual' guy or the muppet who is employing him and supposed to be protecting his staff?

At the end of the day, if the market for scammers wasn't there then these guys would have to work for a living!

 

[Dcf]

666 the number of the beast
100 appliances a day is hard work at the best of times
Their pat tester would b in flames after 300

 

[surrytom]

Im a PAT tester and these comments are just what the trade needs.All too often i get to site and iam immediatly accused of having the "easiest job in the world","money for old rope" or "do you just put stickers on them?"
I work for a large company with many big contracts and we pride ourselves in doing the job properly,i earn just above minimum wage doing the job and believe pay is also a factor in the lowering of quality.we cant compete with the 50p firms.It would be a big help if the customer had a better insight in to what a good tester does and the reasons why,alot of places i visit just let me get on with it and sign my jobsheet when i say im done without checking a single appliance or shadowing me whilst im at work.Im sure most firms have it done just for insurance purposes.
I really like my Job and chose to do it.For me a PAT tester should be qualified to atleast city&guilds 2377,be registered with a governing body and have an on-site assessment.the rule about competent person is far to vague and has given licence to any employee to carry out tests.
firms are not going to pay £2 per item to a fully qualifed and experianced PAT engineer when "John"the part time caretaker can do it for nothing.
every post i see regarding PAT testing is negative due to poor customer experiances from incapable testing firms.

 

[bcuk04]

was doing a PIR at site today when I noticed a PAT tester had turned up, having read through this post the other day I though I'd keep an eye on him and see what he got up to
I passed him when he was inspecting a 30m extention lead, came back a minute later to see it had been stickered and theres no way he'd rolled it all out and back again.
Had a quick look in the kitchen only to find the microwave freshly stickered, when I looked at plug there was no fuseguard in place!
All the time he was walking around he didnt have the necessary lead to plug his tester in then plug appliance into tester, I did have a little chat and found that he could often did 500 items a day with 600 being his best!