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  1. Billy Whizz
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    Billy Whizz Active EF Member

    Location:
    Luton
    Hi all,

    Recently replaced single bathroom ceiling rose with four downlighters. All works great.

    Added an in-line bathroom fan (with timer) in the standard fashion using the switched live (SL) from the light switch, in accordance with provided wiring diagrams and fitted labels.

    Fan now runs as soon as power is applied from the CU through the isolator, with no on/off control when the light switch is operated. However, at the same time the lights ARE switched correctly.

    So, SL & L connections swapped on the fan, finally controllable by the switch. But now there's no fan run-on regardless of timer adjuster position!

    Replacement fan from supplier (manufactured 8 months apart according to the QC sticker) is doing exactly the same thing as the first!

    Before I fire off at them and get it all refunded can anyone see something I've missed?

    Thanks & best regards,

    BW
     
  2. Lee42
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    Lee42 Lee

    Location:
    England
    Can you send a picture of youre connections
     
  3. Billy Whizz
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    Billy Whizz Active EF Member

    Location:
    Luton
    Whoops! I knew I'd forgotten to add something... :)

    Lighting wiring removed from junction box to make it easier to view.

    20170723_153254.jpg

    20170723_152527.jpg
     
  4. Billy Whizz
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    Billy Whizz Active EF Member

    Location:
    Luton
    Used this diagram...

    shower_fan_wiring-HARMONISED.jpg
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Lee42
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    Lee42 Lee

    Location:
    England
    Can you send a picture of youre connections
     
  6. Lee42
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    Lee42 Lee

    Location:
    England
    Sorry just seen them
     
  7. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    cheshire/staffordshire
    Business Name:
    Telectrix
    deleted
     
  8. Lee42
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    Lee42 Lee

    Location:
    England
    Well that wirring looks horrendous.
    No cpc connected single insulation showing, no identification of conductors. The list goes on. (Im guessing u are no electrician)
     
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  9. Lee42
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    Lee42 Lee

    Location:
    England
    Are youre connections in back of fan isolator ok

    Sounds like there is no permanent live to the fan if it is not over running. If there is one when the light is turned off the fan is faulty
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
  10. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    cheshire/staffordshire
    Business Name:
    Telectrix
    i'd be inclined to get the fan bench tested. wire it on a plug and flex.using the cpc of the flex as a S/L ( just for testing, of course). and dab the S/L on to imitate the switch. L, N.SL. see if it works then. if not, it's a duff fan.

    oop s. post made before seeing pics. get an electrician in.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  11. westward10
    Online

    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    What is the section of bell wire doing.
     
  12. ED17
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    ED17 Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    North West
    What's the white cable that looks like bellwire doing?
     
  13. Billy Whizz
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    Billy Whizz Active EF Member

    Location:
    Luton
    No Lee42, I am not a professional and I would never profess to be one. This is a DIY forum after all... ;-)

    And I'm working with what the previous owner left me. If you could explain your CPC, single insulation and conductor identification comments I'm sure I can also rectify these issues.

    Yes, the connections in the back of the isolator are good. While troubleshooting I also wired the fan directly to the junction box to confirm the isolator wasn't faulty.

    Having already got the fan operating in a switchable configuration (by swapping the marked L & SL at the fan) I'm now curious as to why I've had to do this.

    Telectrix,

    Bench test is an option but I'm highly suspicious that two different units seem to be faulty in exactly the same way.

    Best regards,

    BW
     
  14. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    cheshire/staffordshire
    Business Name:
    Telectrix
    is it the cpc by any chance?
     
  15. Billy Whizz
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    Billy Whizz Active EF Member

    Location:
    Luton
    Westward10/ED17,

    The old ceiling rose (a strange and ancient metal thing) had it's case earth wire connected to it...
     
  16. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    cheshire/staffordshire
    Business Name:
    Telectrix
    And I'm working with what the previous owner left me.

    if that's what he's left, i seriously suggest getting the whole installation inspected/tested. who know what other horror bodges he's left you.

    cpc... circuit protective conductor ( earth wire )
    single insulation... the outer sheat of the cable should be inside the J.box, not showing the colour (single) insulation outside
    coductor ID... all conductors should show the colour they represent. e.g black used as live, should be sleeved brown. etc.
     
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  17. westward10
    Online

    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    How have you connected the downlights. The cpcs or earths are the bare copper wires and they all need sleeving and connecting. I would strongly recommend you get an electrician in.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. westward10
    Online

    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    How have you connected the downlights. The cpcs or earths are the bare copper wires and they all need sleeving and connecting. I would strongly recommend you get an electrician in.
     
  19. Billy Whizz
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    Billy Whizz Active EF Member

    Location:
    Luton
    Assuming CPC is when you earth any installed fittings, there are no CPC connections on the fan assembly or on my new downlighters. Hence nothing now goes to the bellwire.
     
  20. Billy Whizz
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    Billy Whizz Active EF Member

    Location:
    Luton
    Just for entertainment, this was the archaic light fitting previously installed.

    20170723_171558.jpg
     
  21. Billy Whizz
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    Billy Whizz Active EF Member

    Location:
    Luton
    I am aware of the principle of earthing and that all earth's require Yellow/Green sleeving but how do I go about that when there is no provision on the fittings to connect such an earth?

    Best regards,

    BW
     
  22. westward10
    Online

    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    Any chance you can show how the downlights are connected.
     
  23. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    cheshire/staffordshire
    Business Name:
    Telectrix
    each cable should have it's cpc connected to it's feeder circuit and hence back to earth at the Consumer Unit. for class II fittings that don't require earthing, the cpc should just be terminated in a single connector or more usually, sleeved and folded back.at each fitting.
     
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  24. Murdoch
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    Murdoch Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Woking
    Whether or not the CPC goes to the fitting, the CPC needs to be continuous to the end of the circuit.... that also applies to the cable to the fan.......
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  25. Billy Whizz
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    Billy Whizz Active EF Member

    Location:
    Luton
    Telectrix,

    Thank you for the explanations. Regarding CPC: None of the downlights have provision to connect a CPC/earth to them and neither does the fan. None of the diagrams supplied with the units showed it either.
    Single insulation: The 3-core you refer in the picture is my temporary testing connection cable while trying to figure out how this problem. Once solved they will be shortened appropriately as I have done with the other wire in the J-Box.
    Identification: Again, I am temporarily troubleshooting and will sleeve when the problem is successfully solved.

    Westward10,

    Standby, downlights photo coming... :)

    Best regards,

    BW
     
  26. Billy Whizz
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    Billy Whizz Active EF Member

    Location:
    Luton
    Westward10,

    While I get a photo, this was diagram I used to wire the downlights.

    Note: no CPC to the lights.

    Zc6XlED.jpg
     
  27. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    cheshire/staffordshire
    Business Name:
    Telectrix
    why a push to break switch?
     
  28. westward10
    Online

    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    0.75 flex is inadequate for the purpose of fixed wiring.
     
  29. Billy Whizz
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    Billy Whizz Active EF Member

    Location:
    Luton
    Telectrix,

    That's just a diagrammatic representation by whoever put it on the Internet. Rest assured I have a pull-cord switch like normal people... ;-)

    Westward10,

    Here are the pics, four downlighters connected in a J-Box, supplied by a switched live.

    Telectrix,

    As you can see, my single insulation is much better here... ;-) LOL!!
     
  30. Billy Whizz
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    Billy Whizz Active EF Member

    Location:
    Luton
  31. Billy Whizz
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    Billy Whizz Active EF Member

    Location:
    Luton
    Westward10,

    Rest assured I used the diagram for layout purposes only, not for material guidance...
     
  32. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    cheshire/staffordshire
    Business Name:
    Telectrix
    • Like Like x 1
  33. Billy Whizz
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    Billy Whizz Active EF Member

    Location:
    Luton
    Niiiice!! :) Do they do them small enough to mount on a joist? Kinda restricted on space which is why I used the J-Boxes in the pics.
     
  34. westward10
    Online

    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    Agreed it is an improvement.
     
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  35. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    cheshire/staffordshire
    Business Name:
    Telectrix
  36. Billy Whizz
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    Billy Whizz Active EF Member

    Location:
    Luton
    Anyway, pulling the thread back on target... ;-)

    So, in summary:
    1. Wired as per fan terminal labels it runs constantly, no switch control.
    2. Reversing L & SL gives switch control but no timer.
    3. My J-Box husbandry requires attention.
    4. CPC has no effect on my fan defect.

    If so, I therefore need to call the manufacturer and ask them:
    1. Why is the L/SL labelled incorrectly?
    2. How exactly do you activate the timer on the fan (as the instructions do not say).

    Best regards,

    BW
     
  37. Billy Whizz
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    Billy Whizz Active EF Member

    Location:
    Luton
    Thanks Telectrix. :)
     
  38. Lee42
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    Lee42 Lee

    Location:
    England
    If you have a multimeter test between the line (brown) and neutral (grey) with the light switch on and switch line (black) and neutral at the fan. You should get 230v with both of them. Turn the light switch off. The switch line will be dead and you should still have 230v between the brown and neutral.
    If that is the case then it has to be a faulty fan.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  39. Billy Whizz
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    Billy Whizz Active EF Member

    Location:
    Luton
    Thanks Lee42.

    Kids are in bed now so stumbling around in the loft will have to wait until the morning.

    However, even before I put a multimeter on it have I not already proved both line and switched line voltages? If wired as per the installation diagram and fan labels, the fan runs constantly as soon as the CU is turned on, regardless of light switch position and/or if I operate the light switch (so line voltage must be present). But at the same time the lights turn on and off as commanded with the same light switch (therefore switched line voltage must also be available).

    The more I look at it the more it seems like a fault with the fan. But for it to be happening with both supplied fans seems rather strange...
     
  40. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    cheshire/staffordshire
    Business Name:
    Telectrix
    didn't realise they had bathrooms in Luton. thought it were outside bog and a tin tub hanging on a nail between saturdays. :p
     
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    • Funny Funny x 1
  41. Billy Whizz
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    Billy Whizz Active EF Member

    Location:
    Luton
    Oooh, Scouser got jokes... PMSL!!:D:D

    I'm actually a displaced Essex Boy, but regardless, you seem to have us all confused with Yorkshire...;);):p:p
     
  42. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    cheshire/staffordshire
    Business Name:
    Telectrix
    essex? that's even worse. they bathe in the estuary there. it's the floating turds from london sewers give then the fake tans.
     
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  43. Billy Whizz
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    Billy Whizz Active EF Member

    Location:
    Luton
    Nice! But the turds are brown, fake tan is orange... :D:D
     
  44. westward10
    Online

    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    Why on earth have to gone to Luton.
     
  45. Lee42
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    Lee42 Lee

    Location:
    England
    Its not something straight forward like the over run timer set to max. Some fans can over run for along time.
     
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